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Bob Gainey speaks: 2005 Draft.

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Old
11-14-2004, 12:51 PM
  #101
Digger12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabbyDugan
Sidney Crosby at 15 did not say word one about the QMJHL Draft being a legal issue for him or that going to Rimouski was a problem. This was a team playing in an isolated area, it's talent pool was depleted, and Crosby is not French. There were probably a half dozen more attractive places for Crosby to play in the QMJHL alone, and I'm sure a kid from a small town in Atlantic Canada would have been just as eager to play in the OHL as the QMJHL . Did his agent do Sidney Crosby a disservice by failing to file lawsuits on Crosby's behalf? I'm sure his parents would have loved to see their boy play in Halifax , Cape Breton, or maybe New Brunswick, or even London, Windsor , or Peterborough. Instead, they supported the QMJHL Draft, the QMJHL itself, and the Rimouski Oceanic hockey club. Crosby was the one person who could bring down the CHL Entry Draft and stick it to the hockey establishment, but he didn't. Maybe being unselfish makes him feel good, and using things like lawsuits and court injunctions to get his way go against his personal beliefs.

Even this year, the team Crosby is playing on looks to me like a longshot to make the Memorial Cup. The only way they get there is if Crosby carries a mediocre goalie and a bunch of Midget AAA defensemen on his back every step of the way. Should Pat Brisson be demanding a trade to a better QMJHL team so that Crosby can play in London next May? Maybe he should, but maybe also that just isn't the way Sidney Crosby wants to do things.

I don't see why Toronto or New York are going to be so wonderful for a teenager like Sidney Crosby or playing for Carolina or Columbus or Nashville would necessarily be punishment. How many kids have the Rangers and Maple Leafs signed since say 1926 that have become popular like rock stars or enhanced their image? Maybe Crosby would rather hang out with some really "nice" girls in Minnesota instead of having paparazzi folowing him from nightclub to nightclub in Los Angeles or New York. Would Crosby be welcomed with open arms into the New York Rangers dressing room by the team's veterans? Would Matts Sundin and Tie Domi be thrilled to see the media glare in Toronto shift to Crosby?

I could see Crosby wanting to play on certain NHL teams over others, but I don't think he wants to be the guy who dismantles the NHL Entry Draft to accomodate his whims, either.

This kid is 17 years old, and "If his agent does not push him to sue, his agent is not doing his job. " ????????? Has Sidney Crosby suffered grievous harm already? Does he "deserve" to be awarded damages and restitution?
Good analysis IMO.

I'd also add that if Crosby's main goal in life was to screw with the draft and be able to pick and choose his team, why didn't he take that WHA offer from that guy in Hamilton? Him joining the WHA would've caused a HUGE headache w/ the NHL, and likely would've given him that coveted open market once the WHA inevitably breathed its last breath. Yet he didn't, even though this particular owner had guaranteed his contract even if the WHA hadn't played a single game.

His pattern of behavior seems to indicate that he's a kid that cares more about playing against the best competition...whichever team he's on seems to be a secondary consideration. He won't be a replacement player, but I don't see him trying to obliterate the entry draft either.

Sorry Tom, but your analysis comes across as something you would really like to see happen, vs. what is probable to happen.

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11-14-2004, 01:05 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabbyDugan
Sidney Crosby at 15 did not say word one about the QMJHL Draft being a legal issue for him or that going to Rimouski was a problem.
He didn't have a choice. If this was a normal NHL year he wouldn't have a choice either. It may not be a normal year, which could open up an opportunity for Crosby that he would be foolish to ignore.

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I could see Crosby wanting to play on certain NHL teams over others, but I don't think he wants to be the guy who dismantles the NHL Entry Draft to accomodate his whims, either.
It would not dismantle the NHL draft. A year long lockout would dismantle the draft until there is another season. The owners don't have to tank the season. If they decide to do it, this is just part of the price. Maybe they are even happy about it. It took several years before they could get Gretzky out of Edmonton. Crosby in a small market is not nearly as good for the NHL as Crosby in a large market.

I do agree that Sidney Crosby might want trade off money for privacy. In that case he might prefer a Carolina or a Phoenix, a place where hockey is not that big of a deal. There are probably only a few places he absolutely doesn't want to go.

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Has Sidney Crosby suffered grievous harm already? Does he "deserve" to be awarded damages and restitution?
Nope. He wouldn't get damages or restitution. He'd just be able to pick where he plays. That's no small thing.

Tom

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11-14-2004, 01:09 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
Sorry Tom, but your analysis comes across as something you would really like to see happen, vs. what is probable to happen.
Why do you think I care? The chance that he would choose Vancouver are only slightly better than him choosing Edmonton. I'd hate to see him in Toronto.

Why do you think the story was planted if Crosby and IMG weren't planning to do it?

Tom

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11-14-2004, 01:53 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
Why do you think the story was planted if Crosby and IMG weren't planning to do it?
Why do you think the story was planted?

Maybe some bored media guys are looking at message boards just like this, looking for filler? Neither you or I or anyone else know for sure what's in Mr. Crosby's head.

I guess we'll find out in the months to come...hopefully this CBA garbage will get sorted out before then.

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Old
11-14-2004, 03:06 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
A more reasonable possibility is that you have been completely wrong throughout this entire thread.
All quotes below from:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/Sports/2004/11/14/713616.html

Quote:
"If there's no CBA, there's no draft," said his agent Pat Brisson."At that point, we'll look at our options. I assume that when they get a CBA, they will address what to do with the players from Sidney's draft year."
Tom would you like to go back over my posts and indicate where I said anything different than this? Brisson has confirmed what I have been writing all along, and I noticed that lately you have backed off from your first inane assertion that they could still have a draft without a CBA, looks like you were wrong and I was right, imagine that.

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There is nowhere to play in North America. That leaves Europe or, perhaps, a legal challenge from lawyers to declare Crosby a free agent, regardless of what the owners say.

Said Barry Trapp, the Leafs' director of amateur scouting: "You have to have a draft, otherwise, what a bidding war over Sidney Crosby."
Again consistent with what I have been writing. I never said he could not mount a legal challenge, I said he could not mount a succesful legal challenge (note the word "perhaps" in the article). If negotiations are still going on, I have not been able to find a way he could win. Like I said before, if someone out there can, it would be most interesting, to see it.

With Trapp's use of the word otherwise he is saying that if Crosby is allowed to bypass the draft and become a FA then you have a bidding war. DUH! The only issue is HOW can he get himself declared a free agent? I have yet to see any published reports that indicate he could use this law or that law, or this or that argument, only media types saying he could challenge the draft. And by reading the article, you get the sense he would not do it, he doesn't sound like that kind of guy, but who knows.

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Old
11-14-2004, 05:07 PM
  #106
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No Cba, No Draft

As I said in my first post, Bill Daly was quoted as follows last June (link):

Quote:
"There won't be a draft if there isn't a CBA in place," said Daly. "If we have an agreement, then we'll be able to go ahead with the draft."
For sure the undrafted players would be addressed in any new cba, who knows they could even try to raise the draft age for one year but how will these players and their agents react? Another point to consider is the possible inclusion of a much more restrictive rookie salary cap.

And another point...previously drafted players. If the signing freeze is still in effect next June 1st, that would coincide with the deadline to sign many previuosly drafted junior players. There would be no draft to re-enter. How would they be dealt with?

Lots of draft questions if a new agreement is not in place by next summer.

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Old
11-14-2004, 07:33 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickabrat
Again consistent with what I have been writing. I never said he could not mount a legal challenge, I said he could not mount a succesful legal challenge (note the word "perhaps" in the article). If negotiations are still going on, I have not been able to find a way he could win. Like I said before, if someone out there can, it would be most interesting, to see it.
LOL.

"Bottom line, not holding the draft means nothing. Once a new CBA (negotiated or otherwise imposed) happens, it will include language to take care of the draft and many other administrative matters. If the NLRB approves, that's it, CROSBY et al CANNOT SUE!"


I agree with Chili. There is also the issue of players re-entering. Not holding a draft does not mean nothing. The issue is the time between when the NHL is supposed to hold a draft and when the new CBA is signed. That time leaves the league wide open. All Sidney has to do is ask a judge who holds his NHL rights because he wants to open negotiations with them.

Quote:
With Trapp's use of the word otherwise he is saying that if Crosby is allowed to bypass the draft and become a FA then you have a bidding war. DUH!
This is an interesting interpretation of "You have to have a draft, otherwise, what a bidding war for Sidney Crosby." I don't know where you get anything but "If there is no draft, Sidney Crosby is a free agent" from Trapp's remarks. He may not be right - as I said in my first post, it is one for the lawyers - but I think he probably is.

I can't imagine what grounds a judge would have to deny him free agency. He's reached the age he can be signed, he's good enough to play, and lots of teams want to sign him. Why should he have to wait? It is not his fault there was no draft. Why should he have to wait to cash his signing bonus? He's not locked out and he wants to report to work.

Quote:
The only issue is HOW can he get himself declared a free agent? I have yet to see any published reports that indicate he could use this law or that law, or this or that argument, only media types saying he could challenge the draft. And by reading the article, you get the sense he would not do it, he doesn't sound like that kind of guy, but who knows.
I think you have it backwards. The issue is how the NHL can prevent him from becoming a free agent. What law do they use? What argument?

I explained how Crosby could do it, but you refuse to accept it. Fine by me. Eventually a reporter will figure out it is an interesting story and explain it. We can revisit this thread when the season is cancelled and somebody does explain the theory. Better yet when we see the court case. It will be a consolation if the season is cancelled.

This story so typical of the hockey media, particularly those who refuse to question anything about what the owners are doing. The first thing Ulmer says is it is a "beguiling question", and then he makes no real effort to answer it. The next thing he tells us is that it is theoretically possible without explaining the theory. Why don't we have several quotes from lawyers in the story? Where is the exploration of the legal issues?

"If there's no CBA, there's no draft," said his agent Pat Brisson. "At that point, we'll look at our options."

The options on July 1st are 1) do nothing, or 2) sue. (The third option in the article - play in Europe - is available either way.) Crosby has nothing to lose with a lawsuit and a lot to gain. Why dfoesn't Brisson just say Sidney will have to wait for the NHL to hold a draft?

I assume that when they get a CBA, they will address what to do with the players from Sidney's draft year."

Well, duh, but it dodges the question. What if there is no CBA when Brisson looks at the options on July 1st?

Why don't you write to Ulmer and tell him he is full of manure. Explain to him that everybody knows that whether a draft is held or not means nothing and that Sidney can't sue. Ask him why he wrote such a ridiculous story when everybody knows the new CBA will take care of things, and anyway, Crosby will never do it.

Tell Ulmer what you told me.

Tom

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Old
11-14-2004, 10:34 PM
  #108
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When I said Crosby can't sue, it meant he can't win. Obviosly anyone can sue, but would he with case law against him? I still have not figured out what legal arguments he could use since the case law says that labor law takes precedent over antitrust law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
I agree with Chili. There is also the issue of players re-entering. Not holding a draft does not mean nothing. The issue is the time between when the NHL is supposed to hold a draft and when the new CBA is signed. That time leaves the league wide open. All Sidney has to do is ask a judge who holds his NHL rights because he wants to open negotiations with them.
And the judge would answer, noone until they finish negotiating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
This is an interesting interpretation of "You have to have a draft, otherwise, what a bidding war for Sidney Crosby." I don't know where you get anything but "If there is no draft, Sidney Crosby is a free agent" from Trapp's remarks. He may not be right - as I said in my first post, it is one for the lawyers - but I think he probably is.
Because Trapp said "otherwise" equivalent to: there has to be a draft or else everyone would get into a bidding war.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
I can't imagine what grounds a judge would have to deny him free agency. He's reached the age he can be signed, he's good enough to play, and lots of teams want to sign him. Why should he have to wait? It is not his fault there was no draft. Why should he have to wait to cash his signing bonus? He's not locked out and he wants to report to work. I think you have it backwards. The issue is how the NHL can prevent him from becoming a free agent. What law do they use? What argument?
OK let's try it your way. What is the judge going to say? OK you can go to work for any team you like. How can he sign an NHL contract? No team is able to sign him as long as there are negotiatons going on. And once negotiations are done, and a new CBA is in place (negotiated or imposed) the new CBA rules come into effect which will determine how the draftess are to be dealt with. So what was the point of Crosby becoming a free agent (which he already is), if he can't sign an NHL contract until a new CBA is in place and a new CBA will determine how he can enter the league? Labor laws in the US take precedent over antitrust as previously shown. Labor law would not aloow him to sign an NHL contract if they are in the middle of negotiations. And the NHL acting as an Association of the owners, would be in control of the contracts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
I explained how Crosby could do it, but you refuse to accept it. Fine by me. Eventually a reporter will figure out it is an interesting story and explain it. We can revisit this thread when the season is cancelled and somebody does explain the theory. Better yet when we see the court case. It will be a consolation if the season is cancelled.
And I have shown you where the law and case law says he can't. Like I said before, I would love to see anyone (I don't care if its a reporter, lawyer, or whatever) explain a theory that will allow Crosby to sign an NHL contract without going through the draft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
This story so typical of the hockey media, particularly those who refuse to question anything about what the owners are doing. The first thing Ulmer says is it is a "beguiling question", and then he makes no real effort to answer it. The next thing he tells us is that it is theoretically possible without explaining the theory. Why don't we have several quotes from lawyers in the story? Where is the exploration of the legal issues?
Now we agree on something. With this and Brisson's failure to fully adress the issue other than to drop vague remarks is bull crap. I agree with you 100%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
Why don't you write to Ulmer and tell him he is full of manure. Explain to him that everybody knows that whether a draft is held or not means nothing and that Sidney can't sue. Ask him why he wrote such a ridiculous story when everybody knows the new CBA will take care of things, and anyway, Crosby will never do it. Tell Ulmer what you told me. .
Good idea. I will. I will pass on any info when/if I get any.

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Old
11-17-2004, 04:20 PM
  #109
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Sigh.

I got my answer back from Ulmer. Long and the short of it, he did not research U.S. labor law or court decisions, it was all "hypothetical", he does not know how a draftee could be declared a FA, and never wrote that he knew how it could be done. So, there you have it. The article was based on a hypothetical.

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Old
11-17-2004, 06:45 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickabrat
Sigh.

I got my answer back from Ulmer. Long and the short of it, he did not research U.S. labor law or court decisions, it was all "hypothetical", he does not know how a draftee could be declared a FA, and never wrote that he knew how it could be done. So, there you have it. The article was based on a hypothetical.
I hate the hockey media. I saw a piece where Daly was asked the question and I can't find it now. Daly ducked with a response that was more or less this:

"If there is no draft, Sidney Crosby will be a free to sign anywhere in Europe. It won't necessarily mean he will be free to sign with any of the 30 NHL clubs. If there is a new CBA, it will decide what happens to the draft class of 2005."

My emphasis. Did the reporter say "What do you mean by necessarily? Does that not mean it is a possibility?"

Of course not.

Tom

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Old
11-17-2004, 09:21 PM
  #111
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Yep, it could be an interesting one for the lawyers

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