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Marcel Dionne says "Kopitar needs to make a decision"

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Old
03-05-2012, 11:54 AM
  #151
The Black1963
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I'm just glad that Kopi's soft play is finally being mentioned.

This is why I'm a fan of DS. He calls it like he sees it.

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03-05-2012, 12:00 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

Of course they need contribution from others as well, but Kopitar is looked upon as the offensive leader on his team, and seeing how he does lead the team in points thus far, he has to increase his production in these critical two months. That's what leaders do, they step up when their team needs them most.
Great post. This is what I was trying to say as well, but of course Nex06 sees only what he wants to and thinks that Kopitar is being "attacked" in this thread.

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03-05-2012, 12:01 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
I'm sure Kopitar can handle criticism. The only way I see it backfiring is if he keeps playing Richards over Kopitar. Richards is their worst possession forward, for some reason much worse here than he ever was in Philly (I have to think this has something to do with the team's defense-first mindset). Kopitar, on the other hand, is one of the best.

It will only benefit our rivals if they cut Kopitar's even strength minutes. Sutter leaning on the fourth line was playing with fire.
Yeah, if you have a 2-goal lead and want to possess the puck along the boards, Kopitar is your man.

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03-05-2012, 12:07 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
I do want more but I want more from everyone. Richards and Carter were the only players I was really happy with last game. Quick? That was not an AS performance, sorry.

Actually I think I will go through the game one more time, I want to see it more in detail.

As for people getting upset over Sutter calling out Kopitar, I am not sure why. We all knew Sutter was a coach who likes to call out his players and if Kopitar can't handle it, he is just not mentally capable to play in NHL. Anyone who thinks that he will hide under the bed and cry whole day, is just nuts.

The are however three problems that I see:

1. I don't want to see Sutter just changing favorites, compared to Murray. Because in that case we haven't achieved anything. My feeling is, that Richards deserved a criticism 5 games ago, he was that bad. There was no criticism coming from the coach. I don't want to put too much importance to that, but it remains to be seen whether Sutter has only changed favorites or he really is going to call out all underperforming players.

2. I am worried about the WAY Sutter talks about Brown and Kopitar. I feel that criticisms are sometimes borderline insults, because they go to the personal level. He implies that Kopitar and Brown are stupid, while some other struggling players are smart. For Kopitar and Brown they need to "find solution for them" as for the smart players "they will be fine, they will find their way." He says that for undeperforming smart players, he is "not worried", but for the stupid ones he is.
I don't know, I'd be calling out my star players a bit different in public. It's possible to be even harsher, but with no insults regarding their mental capacity.

3. I am worried that Sutter is taking his philosophy TOO serious. I understand that he is frustrated by his star players sometimes and he wants to seat them down. But when it matters, he will have to swallow his pride and what he really thinks about those players. I am worried that in last 5 minutes of Game 7, he would seat Kopitar and play Fraser-Lewis-Clifford. Because you know, they have won Stanley Cup, they care and they see the game better than so called first line. That would be stupid and not in best interest of the team, of course. And yet I am worried that he will do it...
1. If I remember correctly Richards criticized his own play around that time and said something to the effect of "I have to play better." One of the criticisms Sutter had of Brown and Kopitar was the "We need to play better." comments.

2. I have seen nothing written that indicates Sutter thinks these two guys are stupid, and I don't think any of his comments are insulting.

3. Like he did at the end of the game against the Ducks?

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03-05-2012, 12:20 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Yeah, if you have a 2-goal lead and want to possess the puck along the boards, Kopitar is your man.
Instead of trying to protect a one goal lead and being pinned in the defensive zone? Yes.

Criticism of them both has gone over the top at times this season. Both are stud centers. But even so, Kopitar has been better than Richards all year.

I look at this team since Carter's arrival and think "Yay! We actually have forward depth," while others now seem bent on trading away half of the top line. Lighting a fire under Kopitar is a great thing, but let's not get carried away.

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03-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by FrozenRoyalty View Post
Wrong. Quotes related to Kopitar in this sorry were obtained from interviews we did at Kings practice on Sunday.

One other thing: unless stated, I don't borrow quotes from other writer's stories. I do original work.
Sorry. It did come off like I was saying you stole the quote but that wasn't what I was implying. I was simply stating that the quote had been published by several sources already and thus has been discussed. I don't think anyone thinks that quotes from a public interview is considered exclusive to the big dollar columns that try to try to beat everyone to the punch via a column or tweet, so I was vague with my statement.

Again, no disrespect. You did a very thoughtfull piece.

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03-05-2012, 12:38 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
Instead of trying to protect a one goal lead and being pinned in the defensive zone? Yes.

Criticism of them both has gone over the top at times this season. Both are stud centers. But even so, Kopitar has been better than Richards all year.

I look at this team since Carter's arrival and think "Yay! We actually have forward depth," while others now seem bent on trading away half of the top line. Lighting a fire under Kopitar is a great thing, but let's not get carried away.
I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter what the game situation happens to be, when Kopitar is in the offensive zone he can generally be found along the boards.

He needs to take the puck to the middle of the ice with much more regularity and authority. I don't see what Richards has to do with that, other than he does it.

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03-05-2012, 12:50 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
I'm sure Kopitar can handle criticism. The only way I see it backfiring is if he keeps playing Richards over Kopitar. Richards is their worst possession forward, for some reason much worse here than he ever was in Philly (I have to think this has something to do with the team's defense-first mindset). Kopitar, on the other hand, is one of the best.

It will only benefit our rivals if they cut Kopitar's even strength minutes. Sutter leaning on the fourth line was playing with fire.
What is a "worst possession forward"- do you mean worst at give-aways or what? As I've indicated before, Kopitar spends almost all his offensive puck possession time on the boards looking for some-one to get the puck too (this also may be a result of the defense first "system"). He needs to go to the net more. But worst and I hope not, but does anybody think his head space may be out of sorts with the addition of Richards and now Carter, maybe thinking I'm not top dog anymore so screw 'em. If so, Sutter needs to be real careful in how he handles it.

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03-05-2012, 12:52 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by King Richards View Post
Great post. This is what I was trying to say as well, but of course Nex06 sees only what he wants to and thinks that Kopitar is being "attacked" in this thread.
Please... if you want to keep your average of one Kopitar thread per day, you shouldn't attack other posters like that. Stay focused.

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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
1. If I remember correctly Richards criticized his own play around that time and said something to the effect of "I have to play better." One of the criticisms Sutter had of Brown and Kopitar was the "We need to play better." comments.
What you say doesn't have much to do with what you quoted. So what if Richards said that? If Kopitar said the same it would be fine? Well that is one great coach then. I'm sorry but double standards have not been refuted by what you wrote.

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2. I have seen nothing written that indicates Sutter thinks these two guys are stupid, and I don't think any of his comments are insulting.
Well, we will just have to disagree here. Keep in mind that where I used " ", I quoted actual Sutter's statements. You bolded only a small part of the paragraph. After that first sentence I explain why I think that way.

Quote:
3. Like he did at the end of the game against the Ducks?
I have written it clearly that I don't find that last game very problematic and I don't panic over what Sutter did in second period. It seems pretty normal to me that coach can seat a player for a while if he is not happy with his performance. No paycheck should give player immunity. I am however worried that this could deteriorate. I am mostly worried because of Sutter's comments. I don't care about those 2 playoff games that Fraser played to get his name written on the SC. What Sutter said about Fraser was stupid. It's also stupid to compare Fraser to Kopitar and say that Fraser is better choice over Kopitar. He isn't. What he did there was sending message to Kopitar, but at the expense of the team. In my opinion he should have made it clear, that by seating Kopitar the team was worse, and put the blame for it on Kopitar's shoulders. I would think that any player would take that more seriously than "I am ok with playing Fraser, he was as good as Kopitar." Players take statements like "He let down the team" much more seriously.

The bottom line is, that if Sutter really believes what he is saying, that team is not worse by not playing your so called first line (I don't even care if it's 1B), we could have problems in the future. Because it is just not realistic and he might hurt the team's playoff chances in couple of weeks. If he doesn't believe what he is saying... well, I will leave it there.

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03-05-2012, 12:52 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
He needs to take the puck to the middle of the ice with much more regularity and authority. I don't see what Richards has to do with that, other than he does it.
I'm addressing the sentiments in this thread and many others where people think it's a good idea to trade Kopitar if he doesn't improve.

I find your praise of Richards over Kopitar confusing, since Richards has not been able to score as much or maintain as much offensive pressure for us this season at all.

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03-05-2012, 01:00 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
I'm addressing the sentiments in this thread and many others where people think it's a good idea to trade Kopitar if he doesn't improve.

I find your praise of Richards over Kopitar confusing, since Richards has not been able to score as much or maintain as much offensive pressure for us this season at all.
Richards was hands down the Kings best forward until he received his concussion. Since then he hasn't been that player, but he is showing signs of coming around again. He at least attempts to take the puck to the middle of the ice.

As far as trading Kopitar, this also has nothing to do with Richards. The question that needs to be answered is, "Is Kopitar capable of being the #1 center on a cup contending team?"

The jury is still out.

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03-05-2012, 01:02 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
What is a "worst possession forward"- do you mean worst at give-aways or what?
Sorry, I should have explained myself. The stat we can use as a close approximation for zone time/possession is basic shot differential at even strength (Corsi). It's better to have the puck than not, and good teams consistently out-shoot their opponents.

Mike Richards is at the bottom all year, no matter who he's been paired with (like JJ before he was traded). It's pretty unusual for Richards compared to the rest of his career. I don't think that's him so much as trying to fit in with his new defense-defense-defense team.

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03-05-2012, 01:08 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Richards was hands down the Kings best forward until he received his concussion.
By what measure?

You would like Kopitar to take the puck to the net more, we all would. But are you saying Kopitar never does this, and never has over his career? I can't agree.

No matter how much you pin on the net-driving argument, Kopitar has outscored him. He's shown himself to be more qualified as a #1 center. But if they trade him away on the grounds that he's not perfect enough, I won't be surprised to see us yet again a middling team, great at defense and horrible at goal-scoring.

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03-05-2012, 01:11 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Richards was hands down the Kings best forward until he received his concussion.
Hands down only if you forget about the first month of the season. If you don't forget, than they were pretty equal. It's quite funny, how the periods of Kopitar playing well are being pushed away, like they don't matter. I would say that in last 15 games Kopitar has been better player in at least 12 of them. But those don't count I guess...

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03-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #165
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What you say doesn't have much to do with what you quoted. So what if Richards said that? If Kopitar said the same it would be fine? Well that is one great coach then. I'm sorry but double standards have not been refuted by what you wrote.


Well, we will just have to disagree here. Keep in mind that where I used " ", I quoted actual Sutter's statements. You bolded only a small part of the paragraph. After that first sentence I explain why I think that way.


I have written it clearly that I don't find that last game very problematic and I don't panic over what Sutter did in second period. It seems pretty normal to me that coach can seat a player for a while if he is not happy with his performance. No paycheck should give player immunity. I am however worried that this could deteriorate. I am mostly worried because of Sutter's comments. I don't care about those 2 playoff games that Fraser played to get his name written on the SC. What Sutter said about Fraser was stupid. It's also stupid to compare Fraser to Kopitar and say that Fraser is better choice over Kopitar. He isn't. What he did there was sending message to Kopitar, but at the expense of the team. In my opinion he should have made it clear, that by seating Kopitar the team was worse, and put the blame for it on Kopitar's shoulders. I would think that any player would take that more seriously than "I am ok with playing Fraser, he was as good as Kopitar." Players take statements like "He let down the team" much more seriously.

The bottom line is, that if Sutter really believes what he is saying, that team is not worse by not playing your so called first line (I don't even care if it's 1B), we could have problems in the future. Because it is just not realistic and he might hurt the team's playoff chances in couple of weeks. If he doesn't believe what he is saying... well, I will leave it there.
1. It wouldn't be fine, but it would be better. The whole personal responsibility thing, ya know?

2. I think Kopitar already knows all this. Sutter saying that Fraser was just as good as Kopitar in that situation is in effect telling Kopitar, "You aren't playing well, and that is not good for the team."

Sutter will likely be using Kopitar at the end of the game, especially when the Kings are protecting a lead, and probably when they need a goal. If I were him though and needed a goal in the last minute of a game I would sure be tempted to put Brown out there with Richards and Carter. Three guys that go right to the net almost every time.

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03-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
Hands down only if you forget about the first month of the season. If you don't forget, than they were pretty equal. It's quite funny, how the periods of Kopitar playing well are being pushed away, like they don't matter. I would say that in last 15 games Kopitar has been better player in at least 12 of them. But those don't count I guess...
I wouldn't.

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03-05-2012, 01:19 PM
  #167
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I am not quoting 8 different people.
But Richards has been a much better player than Anze this year.

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03-05-2012, 01:23 PM
  #168
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I am not quoting 8 different people.
But Richards has been a much better player than Anze this year.
preconcussion maybe, but before the reunion on of the wonder twins he has been awful.

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03-05-2012, 01:23 PM
  #169
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Can't really backfire IMO. Brown is carrying him. It sure in the hell should not be this way.
Seriously, i'd say in one way or another Brown has carried Kopitar over the last month to two months.

It's not like Richards, where we honestly didn't give the guy anyone to play with. Kopitar has some good solid wings with him, maybe not the highest of skilled guys, but Williams and Brown are very good hockey players. And it seems that only when J-Wil or Brownie get hot is when Kopitar gets hot. It's never vice versa.

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03-05-2012, 01:24 PM
  #170
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I am not quoting 8 different people.
But Richards has been a much better player than Anze this year.
You know the numbers don't support that, right?

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03-05-2012, 01:25 PM
  #171
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preconcussion maybe, but before the reunion on of the wonder twins he has been awful.
So has Kopitar and that is why articles are being written about it and why he got benched.

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03-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
I am not quoting 8 different people.
But Richards has been a much better player than Anze this year.
That is just amazing. Well, I am not going to say that you are wrong, or that your post is awful, I will just disagree. If I am allowed to disagree, without being called a Kopitar groupie.

I just don't know how Richards does it. Less points, less goals, less assists, same +/-, worse faceoff %, same position... and yet he has been a much better player. It's a borderline miracle, but I have to give props to Richards. That is VERY VERY hard to achieve, especially because he has been a MUCH better player than Anze this year.

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03-05-2012, 01:33 PM
  #173
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So...if Kopitar doesn't respond to the criticism with a hot streak down the stretch and in the playoffs, what happens? Do we just accept it as a down year and move on, or can we expect management to shop him around? There are plenty of teams out there looking for #1 centers, and I'm sure several of them would have no problem with overpaying for a player like Kopitar.

Let's just hope Kopitar finds his game, so I never have to mention this again.

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03-05-2012, 01:34 PM
  #174
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You know the numbers don't support that, right?
**** numbers

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03-05-2012, 01:35 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
That is just amazing. Well, I am not going to say that you are wrong, or that your post is awful, I will just disagree. If I am allowed to disagree, without being called a Kopitar groupie.

I just don't know how Richards does it. Less points, less goals, less assists, same +/-, worse faceoff %, same position... and yet he has been a much better player. It's a borderline miracle, but I have to give props to Richards. That is VERY VERY hard to achieve, especially because he has been a MUCH better player than Anze this year.
Take the Kopitar picture off of your headboard and we'll talk about it.

I still think folks miss the point. Kopitar should not be compared to Richards at all. Richards does more with less. With what Kopitar has going on, he should do more, a lot more.

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