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Marcel Dionne says "Kopitar needs to make a decision"

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03-05-2012, 04:46 PM
  #201
etherialone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
Yeah, but there is more than points. I don't know how Lombardi feels about it, but if he agrees with some of the posters around here, then Kopitar is more or less a point machine. Boston is a good example that you don't need a point machine to win championships. I mean look at their top point totals last season:
Krejci 62 points (13 goals!)
Lucic 62 points (30 goals)
Bergeron 57 points (22 points)

Kopitar had 11 points more and he was out for end of the season. I was accused by TonySCV of being a fantasy league fan, but I have to agree that points are not everything. The question is, would Kings have better chance to win the Cup after the trade?
I think that is a fair question.

I don" know the answer.

If a deal like the one I proposed where to go through (upgrade Hickey with A Mart or maybe even add him in, who knows) then we would have Krejci and Marchand, two exceptional two way players added to our team which is a good thing but at the cost of an elite level (or at least above the two players we would be getting) two way player who also helps be a more proficient offencive team.

We truly struggle(d) at producing O or at least have this season and if we run into that same problem next year will having moved our one true "point machine" help us win a cup.

To me it seems like a wash. We give up a great point producer who is also an exceptional two way player to fill two spots at a high level but not as much so as Kopitar provides.

Our team D would likely be even better but does it really need to be? The offence should be close to the same but spread out more. So is it worth making such a change?

I don't really know.

I do know that getting Pom is a silly thing in my opinion. It wold be great if we got him for cheap but that isn't likely to happen so why bother?

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03-05-2012, 04:51 PM
  #202
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We JUST got a second line behind the Kopitar unit, in a season plagued by disappointment at every turn.

Kopitar will recover in one of two ways: either he picks up the scoring or he picks up the scoring and learns to consistently take over games. Of course the latter scenario is the preferred option, but I think we finally have the horses in the top 6 to be satisfied with the former.

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03-05-2012, 04:53 PM
  #203
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It would be like when the Kings dealt Bernie Nicholls (coming off his monstrous 70 goal, 150 point season) for Tomas Sandstrom and Tony Granato.

At the time of the trade, Nicholls was 28 and had 27 goals and 75 points in 47 games. He went on to score 12 goals and 37 points in the remaining 32 games with the Rangers in 1990.

Granato and Sandstrom were both three years younger than Nicholls at the time, both being 25 year old wingers. At that point, Sandstrom had scored 19 goals and 38 points in 48 games and Granato had scored 7 goals and 25 points in 37 games. After the trade, Sandstrom would score 13 goals and 33 points in 28 games, and Granato would score 5 goals and 11 points in 19 games.

What was significant about that trade was that on paper, the Kings gave up the best player, but over the years, they obtained far greater depth as a result of that transaction. The only drawback to it was that the Kings never found a long lasting 2nd line C to play behind Gretzky (they had attempted Elik, Kudelski, Carson, Quinn, Lang but they would end up shifting Kurri to C during the 92-93 season).

Not sure what type of return would be comparable today, but if the Kings can strike that type of deal and improve the team, they have to listen and consider it, but I don't see that type of deal out there and ultimately it would be best for the Kings to hang onto Kopitar. He has the scoring potential to be among the top five best centers in the NHL. It took a while for certain players to get to that level, and with him not even being 25 yet, I would think that the team will be a bit more patient with him.

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03-05-2012, 04:54 PM
  #204
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That makes sense.

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03-05-2012, 05:02 PM
  #205
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Kopitar is 24 and isn't getting traded. Could he play better? Of course, but you don't move a 24-year old center for bits and pieces. Kings finally have their 1-2 punch down the middle and you want it broken up after a bad season? If there are locker room problems we don't know about, then maybe you move him. It's a broken record, but take him off the PK if you want more out of him in the offensive zone. The Kings have plenty of forwards that can take care of the PK. Throw Kopitar on the ice after a big kill.

Now, if Tampa wants to be stupid and offer Stamkos for Kopitar+, then sure you listen, but that isn't happening.

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03-05-2012, 05:04 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
What's the fascination with Pominville around here? A 29 year old 2nd line winger with limited upside who just so happens to be having a good season.

I guess the grass is just greener on the other side.
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Kopitars skill set is soooo much > then Pominville yet Pominville has 10 times the drive that Kopitar seems to have. The guy never floats, he never takes a night off.

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03-05-2012, 05:10 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Kopitars skill set is soooo much > then Pominville yet Pominville has 10 times the drive that Kopitar seems to have. The guy never floats, he never takes a night off.
Then shouldn't his production at least be somewhat comparable?

I mean I like Pomm too but he isn't such a great competitor that he would be close to as valuable as Kopitar. I would only move AK for the hugest of overpayments.

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03-05-2012, 05:16 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Kopitar is 24 and isn't getting traded. Could he play better? Of course, but you don't move a 24-year old center for bits and pieces. Kings finally have their 1-2 punch down the middle and you want it broken up after a bad season? If there are locker room problems we don't know about, then maybe you move him. It's a broken record, but take him off the PK if you want more out of him in the offensive zone. The Kings have plenty of forwards that can take care of the PK. Throw Kopitar on the ice after a big kill.

Now, if Tampa wants to be stupid and offer Stamkos for Kopitar+, then sure you listen, but that isn't happening.
No one is saying they want him traded. But if Kopitar doesn't step up, then I don't see the harm in listening to some offers. If no team is willing to give up the necessary pieces, then the Kings are better off keeping their points leader, of course. But if someone wants to overpay (stranger things have certainly happened) then why not pull the trigger and let Carter and Richards center the top 2 lines? I'm thinking the ideal offer would be a star winger (or two top 6 wingers), 3rd line shutdown center, and maybe a pick/prospect. Now, such a package may be unreasonable, but there's no harm in trying. And again, stranger things have happened.

Of course, the best possible outcome would be for Kopitar to become the player we all know he can be. But if he keeps playing like this, and Richards + Carter lead us into the playoffs and maybe help win a series or two, then I don't think there's anything wrong with DL looking to build around that.

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03-05-2012, 05:30 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
It would take overpayment for sure.

Pominville + Adam + 1st round pick for Kopitar?

A trade like that might not improve the club on paper, but on the ice? Not to mention what the extra cap space might provide.

I'm not saying Dean should do something like this, just spit balling a bit.

Even better though would be Kopitar finding the extra gear in his game the way Pominville did.
I know you've got a thing for Grabner so, how bout...

Kopitar for Tavares and Grabner, is exactly the type of deal that could push the Kings over the top.

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03-05-2012, 05:31 PM
  #210
The Black1963
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I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.

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03-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.
I'm not on board with trading Kopitar right now, but I sure as hell don't need Dionne and Sutter to put Kopitar on blast to know that this is probably his worst season since he came into the league.

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03-05-2012, 05:37 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrice View Post
I know you've got a thing for Grabner so, how bout...

Kopitar for Tavares and Grabner, is exactly the type of deal that could push the Kings over the top.
I don't think the Islanders would do it. They like Tavares.

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03-05-2012, 05:38 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.
I took Kopitar off the pedestal long before Dionne and Sutter showed up.

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03-05-2012, 05:41 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I think that is a fair question.

I don" know the answer.

If a deal like the one I proposed where to go through (upgrade Hickey with A Mart or maybe even add him in, who knows) then we would have Krejci and Marchand, two exceptional two way players added to our team which is a good thing but at the cost of an elite level (or at least above the two players we would be getting) two way player who also helps be a more proficient offencive team.

We truly struggle(d) at producing O or at least have this season and if we run into that same problem next year will having moved our one true "point machine" help us win a cup.

To me it seems like a wash. We give up a great point producer who is also an exceptional two way player to fill two spots at a high level but not as much so as Kopitar provides.

Our team D would likely be even better but does it really need to be? The offence should be close to the same but spread out more. So is it worth making such a change?

I don't really know.

I do know that getting Pom is a silly thing in my opinion. It wold be great if we got him for cheap but that isn't likely to happen so why bother?
Like I said just spitballing. For that deal to really work Pominville should be 3 years younger. A two for one swap that improves the overall forward depth should not be out of the question though.

Reaper had another idea on the main board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
I dint think it'd happen nor do I necessarily want it to happen but going off of value, say the Kings re-sign Stoll, Then deal Kopitar and Loktionov for Pominville, Adam and Stafford?

Brown-Richards-Pominville
Stafford-Carter-Williams
King-Stoll-Nolan
Clifford-Adam-Lewis
Westgarth


Last edited by KINGS17: 03-05-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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03-05-2012, 05:43 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.
its the typical armchair GM syndrome. people hear things management says, and all of the sudden they claim to have been feeling the same way all along and were just waiting for someone else to put it into words for them. sure, Kopi is having an off year, it happens. would you trade a player thats had his first 'off' season in 4 years? and 'off' really isnt the right word considering hes still on pace for 70+ points

its really funny how quickly these 'fans' jump from ship to ship. first it was Penner, then Doughty, then Brown,then Quick, now Kopi. give it a rest guys

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03-05-2012, 05:51 PM
  #216
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People forget how terrible Williams was the first year back from his broken leg. His production dipped significantly and it was attributed to a lack of effort, when it really was a year of on-the-job rehab. I'll be curious to see how Kopitar performs next season.

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03-05-2012, 05:54 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I took Kopitar off the pedestal long before Dionne and Sutter showed up.
He is telling the truth.

Anyway, people are only talking. And everyone is expendable. If Sutter and Lombardi think that Kopitar is lost case, I think they should check the offers. The only problem is, that teams are usually not willing to overpay for a player if he is being shopped around. So it's risky, because once Kings put Kopitar on the market, there is no way back. I am almost certain he would be testing UFA market then. And you can't blame, I'd be doing the same, if I knew team was trying to get rid of me.

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03-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #218
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More from Sutter.

Quote:
“I hope they put some pressure on them,’’ Sutter said, referring to Kopitar’s line, presumably meaning that if Richards’ line performs, Kopitar’s line will feel pressure to keep up pace. It’s part of Sutter’s continuing tough-love message to Kopitar and his linemates. That said, Sutter seems pleased with the extra dimension that Carter has brought to the Kings.

SUTTER: “It just gives you a different look at ice level, in terms of speed and the skill set that he brings. It’s just a different look. The Getzlaf line and Richards line were dominant lines (Saturday) night. When they were on the ice, they dominated, both lines. That means you can spread it around.’’

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03-05-2012, 06:16 PM
  #219
Jason Lewis
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Then shouldn't his production at least be somewhat comparable?

I mean I like Pomm too but he isn't such a great competitor that he would be close to as valuable as Kopitar. I would only move AK for the hugest of overpayments.
Pominville isn't as naturally gifted with size, strength and ability like Kopitar. I wouldn't trade them at all 1 for 1. You missed my point a little.

Production is probably the LAST argument I would use. Look at a guy like Gerbe, he is what..5'6? And he plays so well for a guy not gifted in other aspects of his game. Pominville doesn't have a great shot, nor is he very big...

Kopitar HAS EVERYTHING. He has the complete package. Size, skill, vision, skating....

where he lacks something is the mental aspect of the game. Pommer doesn't have as much natural ability as Kopitar. But he does what he can with what he has got. It's similar to that of Mike Richards. They aren't big guys with a ton of skill but they work hard and that's how they get their points.

I think it's fair to say...that in this sport some guys just don't have to work AS hard as other players to get similar levels of success. Currently Kopitar, is enjoying very good play. Like I said, I won't say he has been bad, or anything less then good. But when you have the entire package skill set to be easily a top 5 center in this league and you aren't putting it together mentally...someone needs to get on your ass a little and tell you to step it up.

Remember a few seasons ago when TeMu and DL both said that Kopitar needed to get in better shape if he wanted to get to the next level? He took that criticism and grew from it. Hopefully he can do the same thing here. Because if Kopitar played 60 minutes half as hard as a guy like...Nathan Gerbe...or Shane Doan...he would be a top 5 center consistently no doubt in my mind.


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 03-05-2012 at 06:22 PM.
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03-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #220
Vic Vinegar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.
Until this year, he was the only center capable of 1st line duty. Now we have 2 more of those, both of whom are paid less, are signed for longer, and have been to the SCF. Kopitar is my favorite player. I own his jersey (first jersey I ever bought for myself) and have him as the wallpaper on my phone. I know he is hands down the most talented player on this team and when he is on his game, he's damn near unstoppable. But if he doesn't bring his 'A' game consistently down the stretch and in the playoffs, and Richards and Carter do, then why not explore our options? Kopitar is a great player, and the type of player a lot of teams would love to get their hands on (off the top of my head: Toronto, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Calgary, NY Rangers, New Jersey, etc etc etc). You can't tell me none of those teams might be able to put together an offer that makes the Kings a better team.

Bottom line is we need Kopitar to play with some intensity. We always needed that, but until now he was our only option. That is no longer the case. Richards and Carter are both great centers. I don't want to trade Kopitar. I do want Kopitar to find some energy and intensity. If he does this will all be moot.

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03-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love how this forum put Kopitar on a pedestal for all these years, when he's been playing the same wussy game, but now that Dionne and Sutter have come out and said something about it, all of a sudden, many of you guys are on board of possibly trading him.
I love how you assume things that are completely wrong.

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03-05-2012, 06:30 PM
  #222
Jason Lewis
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Here is an interesting question I pose to you guys.

If you took everything from Kopitars skill set, his vision, his size, his shot..

every skill, and gave them to a guy like Dustin Brown and Mike Richards. How good would those guys be?

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03-05-2012, 06:37 PM
  #223
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If you gave MR just Kopi's size alone, he'd be a 90-100 point guy, and Richards surely wouldn't be a King.

I have a hard time disagreeing with the answers that question would inevitably bring up.

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03-05-2012, 06:39 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
If you gave MR just Kopi's size alone, he'd be a 90-100 point guy.

I have a hard time disagreeing with the answers that question would inevitably bring up.
Yeah, but if you gave him Fraser's Stanley Cup experience and Fraser's understanding of the game, we are talking about extra 15 points.

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03-05-2012, 06:40 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Posters like Kings17 have done a better job at picking your awful posts apart than I have the patience to, but I'm afraid I can't take someone seriously who only deals in hyperbole and misguided rants.
You call his well thought out and respectful posts as hyperbole and misguided yet you say in the post that I am responding to that everything the posters who agree with you say is facts. In actuality, the only facts at our disposal at the stats. Everything else is simply an opinion. Whether is yours, mine or Sutters.

The stats say that Kopitar is playing a very productive brand of hockey in all areas of the ice while playing on a historicaly bad offensive team. That is a fact. Whether he should be better or not is up for debate, but whatever the case Kopitar is having amongst the most well rounded statstical seasons of any player in the NHL.

Offensively, if you took Kopitar's contribution percentage and put it on a top 10 offense Anze is 100 point player with ease. Now he does that while spearheading the PK and being asked and obliging his coaches to stay back and not take chances defensively.

Now as I said earlier we can trace the lack of aggresiveness to when Kopitar got leveled driving to the net. He was on the ice for 5 minutes. He came back the next game and we all were counting him out for the year.

Sure he has never been a power forward type player driving to the net but show me one center in the NHL that bowls over defenseman to get to the net. If you got a man beat, go for it, but when does Anze have his man beat? There is never less than two guys on him at a time. Dustin Brown said as much in Gan's column. Kopitar has made several attempts to move in but he gets murdered. Nobody could care about Dustin Brown or Justin Williams. They are garbage men. They get opportunistic goals that Anze sets up for them.

Now somebody said in this thread that brown has been carrying Kopitar. i think that is proposterous. Brown could not carry anyone. He's a second or third line guy that has made a career of cleaning up for Kopitar. He is the ebneficiary of Kopitar's attention and passing sense. Brown couldn't control the puck if his life depended on it and in all honesty, the guy has to have the worst "gimme" conversion rates of anyone I've seen on the Kings in 10 years. That's with overwhelming opporunities.

In my opinion Justin Williams is a bad hockey player that scores goals. Every statistic shows that he is a completely lucky scorer. His secondary stats do not support his numbers. He (and Dustin Brown while we're at it) are near the absolute bottom in the NHL in turnover ratio per minute. He does not create turnovers. Now we can all agree that he is not effective carrying the puck and is an absolute nightmare in the amount of offsides he generates per game. He does have a quick and what my eyes say is a an accurate shot but his shooting percentage has been average throughout his career. I believe that Anze creates my assumed "luck" that Williams benefits from.

In regards to Kings 17 ( I believe) that listed superstars that made a contribution even when not scoring, I disagree with lots on your list. You mentioned Malkin, who was in the same boat as Kopitar the last 2 years despite playing for the Penguins. He wouldn't bring anything to the table outside of scoring and he wasn't doing much of that. You mentioned Ovechkin, who when he was asked to play defensive his goals cut by almost half, his hits fell off the table, and even then he was not defensively responsible. His coach benched him several games and periods. Backstrom wasn't the same player under a defense first system and those guys played with eachother along with other forwards who were better than Williams and Brown offensively.

Some have said Anze could be gone. That would be par for the course for the Kings. If he didn't have all the restrictions on him and he was allowed to play a sexy brand of hockey with good players the guy would be a true NHL superstar.

I'm willing to wait this out and see if Kopitar gets his nerve back. He's exhausted and shell shocked. Let's not all get extreme.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 03-05-2012 at 06:47 PM. Reason: removed some quoted stuff...
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