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Death to the Undertaker....The all purpose Fire McPhee thread

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:02 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
I'm under the impression that most around here would like a GM with prior NHL GM experience not a first timer in the position.

I'm not in this camp as if they could pry Jim Nill out of Detroit I'd prefer to go that direction.
Nill has been Holland's right hand and #1 player evaluator... don't see a problem in lack of experience as a GM.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:07 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
What has Ken Holland done exactly other than being handed Datsyuk, Zetterberg and the 1989 draft?

He's made like 3 trades since the pre-last lockout, let Hossa go despite having the opportunity to keep him on the cheap and his drafting since the pre-last lockout makes McPhee look like whoever was running Detroit's tables in 1989.

Holland is as overrated as they come. Though he at least still managed to put together a team with an identity. Burke over Holland any day.
Pavel Datsyuk: 6th round
Hank Zetterberg: 7th round
Jonathan Ericsson: 9th round
Tomas Holmstrom: 10th round
Darren Helm: 5th round
Derek Meech: 7th round
Jan Mursak: 6th round
Kyle Quincey: 4th round
Johan Franzen: 3rd round
Valtteri Filppula: 3rd round
Jimmy Howard: 2nd round

and that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

Consider: the Wings last top ten draft pick was in 1991: Keith Primeau

And....4 Cups

C'Mon bro... Burke couldn't shine Holland's shoes.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:11 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
Pavel Datsyuk: 6th round
Hank Zetterberg: 7th round
Jonathan Ericsson: 9th round
Tomas Holmstrom: 10th round
Darren Helm: 5th round
Derek Meech: 7th round
Jan Mursak: 6th round
Kyle Quincey: 4th round
Johan Franzen: 3rd round
Valtteri Filppula: 3rd round
Jimmy Howard: 2nd round

and that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

Consider: the Wings last top ten draft pick was in 1991: Keith Primeau

And....4 Cups

C'Mon bro... Burke couldn't shine Holland's shoes.
However, there is zero chance of getting Ken Holland.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:13 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
However, there is zero chance of getting Ken Holland.
Agreed... just pointing out that Holland's track record far exceeds Burkes. Not even close.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:23 PM
  #605
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Is there any way to quantify just how much luck there is in drafting?

What % of all picks never play an NHL game?

Certainly all GMs have picks bust. Was it a dumb pick? In hindsight, of course. Dumbass!

Others bust from not being developed properly.

But we don't even know if its the GM that is finding these late round gems.

I also wonder how do you grade a GM.

Cups
Drafting Success
Ability to fill holes / team makeup
Ability to find flaws in picks and trade them, or see through flaws, and nabs them
Fleecer or fleeced in Trades
Mortgaged the future and choked. or won a cup.
Paid 6M for Wideman
GM wanted Wideman and Corvo. Was that good because he wanted insurance for Green? Or dumb?

I cant make heads or tails of where to start

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:30 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Is there any way to quantify just how much luck there is in drafting?

What % of all picks never play an NHL game?

Certainly all GMs have picks bust. Was it a dumb pick? In hindsight, of course. Dumbass!

Others bust from not being developed properly.

But we don't even know if its the GM that is finding these late round gems.

I also wonder how do you grade a GM.

Cups
Drafting Success
Ability to fill holes / team makeup
Ability to find flaws in picks and trade them, or see through flaws, and nabs them
Fleecer or fleeced in Trades
Mortgaged the future and choked. or won a cup.
Paid 6M for Wideman
GM wanted Wideman and Corvo. Was that good because he wanted insurance for Green? Or dumb?

I cant make heads or tails of where to start
I just want a guy who's proven that he can build a team that matches his vision. Prior success is not as big of a deal to me as it is to some.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:36 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I'd bet pretty much everything I owned on that statement.

If you think George struggled to build a team in DC, look at what Burke did in Toronto.
I think your apparent dislike of Burke is clouding your judgement.


Just because only 1 GM has won a Cup with different team doesn't mean it can't happen does it?

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:38 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I think your apparent dislike of Burke is clouding your judgement.


Just because only 1 GM has won a Cup with different team doesn't mean it can't happen does it?
Nope, but it means it's extremely unlikely for it to happen.

It's like saying "Just because only 1 player has scored 90 goals in a season doesn't mean it can't happen, does it?".

And my dislike of Burke is based on his body of work over the last 5 years. I don't think its unwarranted.

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02-06-2013, 12:40 PM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
Pavel Datsyuk: 6th round
Hank Zetterberg: 7th round
Jonathan Ericsson: 9th round
Tomas Holmstrom: 10th round
Darren Helm: 5th round
Derek Meech: 7th round
Jan Mursak: 6th round
Kyle Quincey: 4th round
Johan Franzen: 3rd round
Valtteri Filppula: 3rd round
Jimmy Howard: 2nd round

and that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

Consider: the Wings last top ten draft pick was in 1991: Keith Primeau

And....4 Cups

C'Mon bro... Burke couldn't shine Holland's shoes.
Yeah, that's why I talking about the pre-last lockout.

Only ones he drafted since then I believe were Franzen, Helm,and Howard. Our drafting since 2004 crushes his even if you take away Ovechkin, Backstrom and Alzner. Not much in terms of trades and UFAs as well, though it's not like he had to do much other than sit on his thumbs while Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Franzen were beasting out.

I'm more interested in his more recent history than back when he had the Russian 5 and the 1989 draft at his disposal. I'm not debating his success, just whether he'd be able to work better with this group and what we have than Burke.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were fully products of Anderssen if I recall. He deferred throwaway picks to his best scout. Which is the smart thing to do, but hardly makes for godly drafting acumen.

I mean, I can see him improving our development system and giving us an overall play style to build towards, but just about anyone can do that at this point.

Another thing about Holland, we never saw him run a rebuilding team. Burke was taken out of his element when everyone considered him god and forced to do so. Who knows how Holland would perform under those circumstances.


Last edited by Halpysback*: 02-06-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Old
02-06-2013, 12:44 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Nope, but it means it's extremely unlikely for it to happen.

It's like saying "Just because only 1 player has scored 90 goals in a season doesn't mean it can't happen, does it?".

And my dislike of Burke is based on his body of work over the last 5 years. I don't think its unwarranted.
No, it's more like saying "caps have never beaten [insert team here] on the ides of March so why even bother watching the game".

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02-06-2013, 12:48 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I just want a guy who's proven that he can build a team that matches his vision. Prior success is not as big of a deal to me as it is to some.
I think that's a fair way to evaluate a GM.

It sure seems like a shortfall of George to me. His vision appears to horde core and maybe one year the cup will be ours.

Playing devils advocate, the game has changed in the past 10 years. George doesn't see the need for a bouncer any longer. It was unheard of to not have one, not too long ago (ignoring the Detroit model).

My point, a GM may well be forced to adapt. Perhaps to compete within a division built around a certain style, a team like Philly changes significantly overnight. Things don't always go as planned, and he needs to be quick to adapt.

GM seems very static in his approach.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:49 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Nope, but it means it's extremely unlikely for it to happen.

It's like saying "Just because only 1 player has scored 90 goals in a season doesn't mean it can't happen, does it?".

And my dislike of Burke is based on his body of work over the last 5 years. I don't think its unwarranted.
well if you're adopting that logic as your deciding factor, we should never try to win the Cup, because it's extremely unlikely to happen.


Burke had some hits and misses in Toronto, but he wasn't a disaster as you would have everyone believe. If you looks at his entire body of work there "objectively", you see that.

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Old
02-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #613
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The Caps are not a rebuilding team. There are multiple high value roster assets and high caliber players. It's just that those players don't make anything resembling a proper hockey team built with vision and purpose. Any new GM would be walking into a team that needs an identity change, not a rebuild.

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Old
02-06-2013, 01:00 PM
  #614
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I would be happy with an identity.

Ovi and his toothless smile was our identity. But it's a team game. He falters, and the team is in shambles. Here we are.

Ok so we roll with that offensive identity. We don't have the horses. Crickets.

Ok let's roll with a defensive identity. Crickets in the stands.

I was living in fantasy land thinking Dale would make us a tough team, hard to play against. Reality came crashing down when I heard him admit, you can't play that way anymore, the game has changed. Hate to lose... what is that?

I am now thinking its tough to find a team an identity. They league has decided they want every team to be the same. We will suspend those naughty flyers until they concede to Mario's vision.

Teams seem more and more the same to me now, either they attack, or are opportunistic.

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02-06-2013, 01:01 PM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Nope, but it means it's extremely unlikely for it to happen.

It's like saying "Just because only 1 player has scored 90 goals in a season doesn't mean it can't happen, does it?".

And my dislike of Burke is based on his body of work over the last 5 years. I don't think its unwarranted.
I'm as opposed to Burke as you are, but how many of those cup-winning GMs have even been GMs for a second team? Maybe they didn't win with another team because their original team rewarded their success with job security?

Seriously though, **** Burke. I don't care about experience. Experience can easily be as bad as it is good, especially for someone as stubborn as Burke. Just look at the terrible habits it's cemented in some of the players on this team. I'd rather have Oates as GM/coach than Burke.

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02-06-2013, 02:02 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
well if you're adopting that logic as your deciding factor, we should never try to win the Cup, because it's extremely unlikely to happen.


Burke had some hits and misses in Toronto, but he wasn't a disaster as you would have everyone believe. If you looks at his entire body of work there "objectively", you see that.
No, that wouldn't be the same logic.

Logic regarding the Caps Cup chances based on the history of the game would be that it's very likely that they'll win a Cup, since less than half the league hasn't.

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02-06-2013, 02:16 PM
  #617
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By the latter "logic" I guess we can just hire Mike Milbury as GM and Cassidy as coach and eventually win a cup, because hey statistics.

Neither of those "logics" take into account one single real world factor pertinent to either situation.

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02-06-2013, 02:31 PM
  #618
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Just admit you don't like Burke and you couldn't give an unbiased opinion if you tried!

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02-06-2013, 02:48 PM
  #619
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The Tinner approves of this thread although it is about 10 years too late.

I don't mind Burke but there is no question he made horrible moves in Toronto.

I'd rather not get an inexperienced GM at this point to be honest.

I don't think it matters..GMGM will be back next year at minimum since this year was so awkward with the lockout/no training camp.

No way Ted fires him

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02-06-2013, 04:04 PM
  #620
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Even with the mess of an AHL team Burke left in Toronto, they have gone 2-0 against the team of winning transactions that GMGM put together.

At least after that failed experiment they get to know what direction the franchise needs to move in.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:15 PM
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Just admit you don't like Burke and you couldn't give an unbiased opinion if you tried!
I know I am out-of-place here, being a Stars fan and all, but I like the Caps and Ovi and want them to succeed. So, here's my question: What is your reason for recommending Burke should GMGM get fired?

To get things started, here's Burke's entire draft history. I know it's posted on Bleacher's Report which has some really silly opinions, but shun the narrative and focus only on the players he drafted.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:37 PM
  #622
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I know I am out-of-place here, being a Stars fan and all, but I like the Caps and Ovi and want them to succeed. So, here's my question: What is your reason for recommending Burke should GMGM get fired?

To get things started, here's Burke's entire draft history. I know it's posted on Bleacher's Report which has some really silly opinions, but shun the narrative and focus only on the players he drafted.
God only knows. Brian Burke distributes draft picks like amyls at a leather bar and scouting is the only thing the Caps org does at an above-average level anymore, so basically it's almost assured to make us systematically worse.

As far as his team construction goes; ok job in Vancouver, he kind of miracled his way into having two first-ballot HOF D in Anaheim, good job with the 2010 US olympic team, but starting Miller isn't really an act of sublime genius, Toronto is a CF. So...neutral chaotic?

Honestly, I think that Toronto's situation would be similar to Washington's in respect to the relationship in between ownership and management, so I'd balk at that. Also, he'd have to share the camera with Craig Laughlin, OV, and Brooks. Tough.

I think some of the posters here are really just semi-closeted masochists.

Maybe Mike Milbury would come out of retirement to take the GM job?

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02-06-2013, 04:39 PM
  #623
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Whoops. I forgot that the Maple Leafs won two early-season games against a stumbling Caps team. Disregard all of that stuff I just said. Get him on board!

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02-06-2013, 04:44 PM
  #624
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I'm under the impression that most around here would like a GM with prior NHL GM experience not a first timer in the position.

I'm not in this camp as if they could pry Jim Nill out of Detroit I'd prefer to go that direction.
I think the asst gm in Nashville is ready for a shot as well.

I don't think Ted has the vision or the appetite for risk to take either. He'll opt for a middling guy who's been around the block a few times.

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02-06-2013, 04:51 PM
  #625
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I could easily see Ted promoting Ross Mahoney to GM. Don't know how I'd feel about that.

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