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Death to the Undertaker....The all purpose Fire McPhee thread

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02-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #976
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Smid played one season in the Ducks organization, for Portland during the lockout, and then was dealt to the Oilers. I think it is a reach to claim he has 'history' with Burke and thus would spurn other offers to play for him.
If you want someone to turn reaches into reality there's no better man than Brian Burke.

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02-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #977
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Like I said...the guy is a jerk and rubs most people the wrong way. Pretty apparent Burke won't get a fair shake with the average fan because of simple dislike.


McPhee can't even get lucky in 15 years. I'll trade 15 year of flameouts for 1 Cup every day of the week.

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02-20-2013, 11:06 AM
  #978
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I'll give him credit for taking advantage of the amazing opportunity and actually making the Pronger deal but that's about it...
So, all he did was add a future Hall of Famer who put his team over the top and won a Stanley Cup because of it?

Oh, is that all?

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02-20-2013, 11:08 AM
  #979
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Fire the bum already.. Unfortunately we can shout it till the cows come home, but until the fans stop spending money on the Caps, Ted will not fire him..

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02-20-2013, 11:08 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Like I said...the guy is a jerk and rubs most people the wrong way. Pretty apparent Burke won't get a fair shake with the average fan because of simple dislike.


McPhee can't even get lucky in 15 years. I'll trade 15 year of flameouts for 1 Cup every day of the week.
The dislike is pretty much universally professional, though. People don't like the way he does his job. On a personal level he's clearly a person of great integrity and character. He just takes too many cards out of his own deck to be most people's idea of a good GM nowadays.

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02-20-2013, 11:13 AM
  #981
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The dislike is pretty much universally professional, though. People don't like the way he does his job. On a personal level he's clearly a person of great integrity and character. He just takes too many cards out of his own deck to be most people's idea of a good GM nowadays.
Universally professional? I disagree. 95% see the guy who is a jerk to the press and pass judgement. Comments about him lucking into Neidermeyer or Pronger are about as absurd as it gets. Those comments are clear indicators that people are judging him on the persona they see in the press, not the successes he HAS had on the ice.


If he doesn't have what it takes, then McPhee never had it.

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02-20-2013, 11:13 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Like I said...the guy is a jerk and rubs most people the wrong way. Pretty apparent Burke won't get a fair shake with the average fan because of simple dislike.


McPhee can't even get lucky in 15 years. I'll trade 15 year of flameouts for 1 Cup every day of the week.
Couldn't care less that he's a jerk. I'd actually prefer my GM to be a completely ruthless *******.

I don't want him as GM of the Caps because he's essentially McPhee with a lucky two years in Anaheim. His ability to construct a team has been shown to be pretty terrible.

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02-20-2013, 11:15 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Universally professional? I disagree. 95% see the guy who is a jerk to the press and pass judgement. Comments about him lucking into Neidermeyer or Pronger are about as absurd as it gets. Those comments are clear indicators that people are judging him on the persona they see in the press, not the successes he HAS had on the ice.


If he doesn't have what it takes, then McPhee never had it.
How did he not luck into Scott Niedermayer? He got the job as GM of the team his brother was on, and Scott wanted to play with Rob.

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02-20-2013, 11:16 AM
  #984
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Except for that 1 CUP....


Clearly he's horrible and a simple chimpanzee could have won that Cup in Anaheim because luck was the determining factor in that win.

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02-20-2013, 11:20 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Universally professional? I disagree. 95% see the guy who is a jerk to the press and pass judgement. Comments about him lucking into Neidermeyer or Pronger are about as absurd as it gets. Those comments are clear indicators that people are judging him on the persona they see in the press, not the successes he HAS had on the ice.


If he doesn't have what it takes, then McPhee never had it.
No they aren't. The biggest complaints about Burke are basically the opposite of him being a jerk, they're that he handcuffs himself with his own personal ethics and does a poor job because of it. If his attitude rubs people the wrong way, it's because it magnifies his shortcomings; his "I won't do that" rules become a much bigger hindrance when he's telling them to anyone and everyone who will listen.

And I actually think some of the jerkiness to the press is a credit to him, in that he's good at drawing attention away from his players and onto himself. He just makes tactical blunders with the type of attention he sometimes draws (set himself up to fail by making it way too transparent that he wanted to trade up for Tavares, for example).

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02-20-2013, 11:20 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Except for that 1 CUP....


Clearly he's horrible and a simple chimpanzee could have won that Cup in Anaheim because luck was the determining factor in that win.
You mean the 1 CUP where his team was carried by Niedermayer, Pronger, and Giguere? He lucked into Niedermayer, already had Giguere, and made a no-brainer move to get Pronger. Not exactly a display of deft management moves.

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02-20-2013, 11:25 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by IkeaMonkey View Post
So, all he did was add a future Hall of Famer who put his team over the top and won a Stanley Cup because of it?

Oh, is that all?
No he added 2 future HoFers defensemen, one of whom came simply because his brother was already playing for the team...

Like I said I give him credit for actually making the Pronger deal but the circumstances were pretty unique and it isn't like the price was that high IMO.

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02-20-2013, 11:31 AM
  #988
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Being a jerk is a huge plus for a GM to me. Burke has a fatal combination of stupidity and stubbornness that leads him to be pretty unlikely to succeed. His moves are more likely to blow up in his face than work out. Not bothering to contextualize a Cup win is downright retarded. Dean Lombardi was bound for the unemployment line a year ago, months before winning the Cup. After the fact most people have attempted to recast the narrative to account for his success as part of a long-term vision. Aspects of it were, but others certainly weren't. The reality is that, for example, trading for Carter was a desperate attempt to do whatever he possibly could to salvage the season and his job. Cutting through the dumbass noise to determine the actual quality of the job done by a Cup-winning GM is essential. It's hilarious to see people who rip into McPhee on a regular basis accepting a moron surface narrative of Burke's career with no scrutiny.

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02-20-2013, 11:35 AM
  #989
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LOL...you guys are simply making my case for me. Keep bashing the proven Cup architect.

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02-20-2013, 11:37 AM
  #990
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So the moral of the story is that Cup winning GMs tend to have balls and are decisive (for good or bad). Unless ownership gives whoever it is in charge the autonomy needed it won't matter who has the title.

Post-Montreal series indecision has been pretty well paralyzing in any event. If there's a method it's very hard to figure what it is.

Edit: Unless the method is simply be mediocre, continue to rely on what impact players you do have to carry the load and primarily focus on selling out and whatever playoff revenue can be added.


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02-20-2013, 11:38 AM
  #991
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
LOL...you guys are simply making my case for me. Keep bashing the proven Cup architect.
Architect indicates that he designed the Cup winner from the ground up. That clearly wasn't the case in Anaheim, and arguing such would destroy any credibility. Burke was more like the Cup roofer.

Ignore whether or not his Cup in Anaheim was lucky, for a second. What has he done since then that would indicate to you he's capable of putting together another Cup winner, or even that he's a good team builder?

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02-20-2013, 11:40 AM
  #992
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Sadly we don't know if GMGM already has that autonomy or not. Ted talks like he stays out of Hockey Operations, so it falls back to Patrick I guess if you believe that McPhee is somehow hamstrung by upper management.

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02-20-2013, 11:42 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Architect indicates that he designed the Cup winner from the ground up. That clearly wasn't the case in Anaheim, and arguing such would destroy any credibility. Burke was more like the Cup roofer.

Ignore whether or not his Cup in Anaheim was lucky, for a second. What has he done since then that would indicate to you he's capable of putting together another Cup winner, or even that he's a good team builder?
Toronto should have been a pretty decent canvas for him. Limitless resources, ownership that (at the time) would give him serious autonomy. A place that should have been a big draw to talent (not just players but coaches and staff). Not a fan of his judgement while there, though.

It's all moot. I would be shocked if Burke were the type of guy Ted would hire.

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02-20-2013, 11:45 AM
  #994
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Why would I ignore his greatest accomplishment, the ONLY one that matters? So it will help make your argument for you?

It's not like Burke did all bad in Toronto. Aren't you the one who suggested Seguin was already a franchise center? If you believe that, then I can see how you think Burke was a disaster.

Someone on the main boards did a writeup of all the Burke moves in Toronto. Wasn't all bad as you would have most believe.

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02-20-2013, 11:49 AM
  #995
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Why would I ignore his greatest accomplishment, the ONLY one that matters? So it will help make your argument for you?

It's not like Burke did all bad in Toronto. Aren't you the one who suggested Seguin was already a franchise center? If you believe that, then I can see how you think Burke was a disaster.

Someone on the main boards did a writeup of all the Burke moves in Toronto. Wasn't all bad as you would have most believe.
Why ignore the other 13 seasons of his managerial career, and only pay attention to his greatest accomplishment? So it will help make your argument for you?

You could make a similarly glowing write up of McPhee's moves in DC.

The proof is in the pudding for Burke's tenure in Toronto: 4 seasons, 0 playoff appearances. He was a failure, and had more than ample time and resources to make them into a playoff team.

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02-20-2013, 11:49 AM
  #996
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Toronto should have been a pretty decent canvas for him. Limitless resources, ownership that (at the time) would give him serious autonomy. A place that should have been a big draw to talent (not just players but coaches and staff). Not a fan of his judgement while there, though.

It's all moot. I would be shocked if Burke were the type of guy Ted would hire.
Limitless resources - up to the salary Cap that everyone else follows

Ownership that gave him serious autonomy - Speculation

City that was a big draw for talent - I don't see free agents falling all over themselves to sign in Toronto. In fact, I'd hazard to guess that most don't want to be in that fishbowl being overscrutinized at every turn.

Look I'm not at all suggesting all of his moves have been great, but I can't knock the guy for winning a Cup.

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02-20-2013, 11:49 AM
  #997
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It's hilarious to see people who rip into McPhee on a regular basis accepting a moron surface narrative of Burke's career with no scrutiny.

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02-20-2013, 11:51 AM
  #998
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Why ignore the other 13 seasons of his managerial career, and only pay attention to his greatest accomplishment? So it will help make your argument for you?

You could make a similarly glowing write up of McPhee's moves in DC.

The proof is in the pudding for Burke's tenure in Toronto: 4 seasons, 0 playoff appearances. He was a failure, and had more than ample time and resources to make them into a playoff team.
Oh please do so we can all laugh.


Just don't forget to include the only thing that matters to the history books.

# of championships


And whether or not Burke was a failure in Toronto was never the argument. I'd agree easily. Still a more successful GM that what we have had here for 15 years.

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02-20-2013, 12:13 PM
  #999
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It depends what you define as a successful GM. Billy Beane considered by many one of the best GMs in Baseball has only won 1 playoff series and 0 WS.

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02-20-2013, 12:19 PM
  #1000
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Oh please do so we can all laugh.


Just don't forget to include the only thing that matters to the history books.

# of championships


And whether or not Burke was a failure in Toronto was never the argument. I'd agree easily. Still a more successful GM that what we have had here for 15 years.
I'm not going to, because it's irrelevant, hence Burke's list of moves looking good. And don't act like GMGM hasn't had a boatload of good ones: Fedorov, Chimera, Varlamov, Ribeiro, Wideman, Vokoun, Bondra, Gonchar, etc.

The entire point is that a collection of trades looked at in a vacuum indicates nothing of value.

# of championships really isn't that important when evaluating whether someone is a good GM. What's important is looking at those championships in context and evaluating how well a GM can sustain and repeat success. Give me a GM who's teams have regularly made deep playoff runs over a guy who's had one magical run any day.

Burke in Toronto is the latest and thus most accurate measure of his ability as a GM. So I'm not sure why you want to dismiss it out of hand when considering Burke as a GM.

And I don't know why you continually make it seem like this is some sort of defense of McPhee. It's not. This is not an either/or scenario. I'd rather have neither.

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