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Death to the Undertaker....The all purpose Fire McPhee thread

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Old
03-05-2012, 10:38 AM
  #126
Ridley Simon
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Who's ignoring a large portion of the tenure?

There has been repeated rationalization of firing him because he hasn't won in 14 years. It's quite clear.

Again, if it's much deeper than that, put the deep reasons forward. Saying things like "he's had 14 years" or "14 years of playoff failure" just distracts from any real arguments. That's just pitchfork toting.
I did. I listed 5-6 odd things or so a few pages ago. You didnt say a word about them.

Per page 2

"But his shortcomings:

Cant understand lockerroom chemistry, never has

Cant understand the value of veteran leadership, never has

Cant understand what makes a good coach, never has

Cant understand taking a major risk. Is very gun shy after one mistake

Cant understand players personalities and how to cater to them, far too many ex Cap are *very* bitter about their treatment by the Org.

He has his pluses, but the minuses are on full display this, his 15TH season. We are as far from winning a Cup as we've been since he *finally* fired Hanlon in 2007.

Time to go."


Do you really believe GMGM should stay, or are you just arguing to hear yourself talk?


Last edited by Ridley Simon: 03-05-2012 at 10:54 AM.
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03-05-2012, 11:02 AM
  #127
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I'm tempted to fire him but after the Hunter disaster I would like to know that we have either a proven winner or a promising candidate to replace him. I don't want to see GMGM go something like 17-3-4 in the new year with a new team while we struggle to make the playoffs.

IE don't replace him for the sake of replacing him.
Respectfully, I think you are overestimating McPhee a little bit here. We are arguably the most underachieving team in the League right now and there is dysfunction everywhere. McPhee's finger prints are all over this mess. Don't think other team's owners are taking notice?

I think it would be some time before McPhee has another GM job. If anything, I think he will take a job as a televsion analyst somewhere until his phone rings.

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03-05-2012, 11:23 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by bgroban View Post
Respectfully, I think you are overestimating McPhee a little bit here..
the standard comment about boudreau was that any monkey could have coached the capitals to their regular season record. that hanlon was less than a monkey.

so, here we are again. any monkey could have built these capitals..eh?

if you think gm's as good as mcphee grow on trees, lets look at sutter and feaster in calgary. kevin lowe in edmonton. brian burke in toronto. bob gainey in montreal. how many cups for clarke and holmgren in philly? talk about playoff failures, its been 10 years since the devils and lou have been out of the second round of the playoffs.

its a good question. what available gm is going to be a better gm than mcphee? dont just fire him because you want some blood because the next guy might be worse.

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03-05-2012, 11:35 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by bgroban View Post
Respectfully, I think you are overestimating McPhee a little bit here. We are arguably the most underachieving team in the League right now and there is dysfunction everywhere. McPhee's finger prints are all over this mess. Don't think other team's owners are taking notice?

I think it would be some time before McPhee has another GM job. If anything, I think he will take a job as a televsion analyst somewhere until his phone rings.
I think he'd be ideal in Columbus, if he were to get canned. GMGM strikes again

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03-05-2012, 11:40 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
the standard comment about boudreau was that any monkey could have coached the capitals to their regular season record. that hanlon was less than a monkey.

so, here we are again. any monkey could have built these capitals..eh?

if you think gm's as good as mcphee grow on trees, lets look at sutter and feaster in calgary. kevin lowe in edmonton. brian burke in toronto. bob gainey in montreal. how many cups for clarke and holmgren in philly? talk about playoff failures, its been 10 years since the devils and lou have been out of the second round of the playoffs.

its a good question. what available gm is going to be a better gm than mcphee? dont just fire him because you want some blood because the next guy might be worse.
no, no, no, no, no....

This is the *worst* way to manage any organization. Frozen into inactivity because you dont know who else to hire? Do you think any fortune 500 company would act in that manner? No...not one bit.

Ted needs to determine if his franchise is going in the right direction. If it isnt, then he needs to determine whats the best course of action to get it going in the right direction again.

If it's due to his architects misgivings, then he needs to get a new architect. Part one of this process is the decision to need a new vision, new thought process, new leader, etc.

Part two of that process is determining who the new person is. These are mutually exclusive ideas. There will *always* be another mind that can come and do the job, and its up to Ted/Dick Patrick to find qualified candidates. Take their time, interview a lot of people, and do their due dilligence on the top 2-3 candidates.

It's not rocket science, and Ted has hired many an exec before. He should know the steps. and if godforbid he doesnt, he should be able to ask someone who will (like Dick Patrick).

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03-05-2012, 11:45 AM
  #131
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its a good question. what available gm is going to be a better gm than mcphee? dont just fire him because you want some blood because the next guy might be worse.
Paul Fenton's record at drafting is at least as good as McPhee's. McPhee sucks at every other aspect of gming, so Fenton would be a wash at least.

There is always talent out there. Good managers find it. Let's see Leonsis unearth some.

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Old
03-05-2012, 12:02 PM
  #132
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No one was selling.

Not selling high on Wideman, Hamrlik, Vokoun and to a lesser extent Knuble or Ward if there was interest were huge mistakes.
There were players sold, like Vermette & Pahlsson out of CBJ for instance. Elliot Friedman also mentioned WSH was in on Cody Hodgson before VAN traded him to BUF.

As for a guy like Vermette, I suspect GMGM wanted to trade term in consideration of next season. Which brings me to my next question...


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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Well, Poti doesn't count against the cap anyway.

But still, Laich + Ward + Knuble + Hamrlik + Schultz + Wideman + Erskine (added since he doesn't play anyway) = 20.5 million. Holtby in over Vokoun yields 21.5 So 22-23 million depending on Semin's discount.
Other than the UFAs (Knuble, Wideman & Voukoun), how does GMGM get rid of the cap hits with term, without being forced to take on any himself?

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03-05-2012, 12:04 PM
  #133
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I don't know who is to blame but listening to the so called experts many fingers point to Ovechkin. Not that so called experts are experts but they have influence nonetheless on other opinions formed.

Most everyone gave GMGM an +A with the players he signed. IDK this team is in transition of finding its new identity if in fact that's what it's doing.

I don't like the fact players are leaving the organization unhappy either. And truth is there could be some more of that this year.

I'd be willing to give McPhee another year yet.

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03-05-2012, 12:05 PM
  #134
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Again...stop oversimplifying. It's like you're arguing just to argue. 14 years of failure is the big picture. Lots of smaller picture items have been discussed here at length.
There's that oversimplification again--it hasn't been 14 years of failure.

It's been 3 years of failure. That's what should get him fired.

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03-05-2012, 12:36 PM
  #135
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There is no magic blueprint for winning a cup. There sure as hell are several for not winning one. Far as I can tell GM is doing a lot of the latter.

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03-05-2012, 01:08 PM
  #136
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George McPhail. I called for his head after the Montreal series. He's been here for what 14, 15 year? What does he have to show for it? **** him. The guys is NOT a WINNER. He's a loser and has NO idea how to build a championship team, he's absolutely clueless. I admit, I wanted BB gone and thought he was even bigger problem than McPhail, turns out I was wrong. My apologies Bruce, all the best in California. The guy doesn't have the balls to ACT when the team needs it thinking he's Ken ****ing Holland.

**** you McPhail and thanks for nothing. Also **** you too Ted if you don't fire him this year.

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Old
03-05-2012, 01:39 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
There were players sold, like Vermette & Pahlsson out of CBJ for instance. Elliot Friedman also mentioned WSH was in on Cody Hodgson before VAN traded him to BUF.

As for a guy like Vermette, I suspect GMGM wanted to trade term in consideration of next season. Which brings me to my next question...
Pahlsson doesn't really add much, couldn't hurt but we might as well have went for Smithson if that's the route we were going for. Vermette has term and supposedly didn't give all that much effort in Columbus. Personally I wanted Kostitsyn if a 2nd and a 4th was the price. Johansson + 2nd for Kassian would have rocked too if Buffalo was interested. Probably not tho. If that goes down, convince Lombardi to swing Loktionov for something around Knuble.

Quote:
Other than the UFAs (Knuble, Wideman & Voukoun), how does GMGM get rid of the cap hits with term, without being forced to take on any himself?
There were takers for Hamrlik at the deadline, so he's likely at least worth FC.

GMGM had to outbid half the league for Ward, again, he should be worth at least FC for a team that thinks they can use him well.

Florida would take Laich in a second, a lot of other teams probably as well.

Schultz is probably worth FC to some team in the league, if not he could always be waived.

Erskine is a player most teams in the league would love to have. Rangers were interested supposedly.

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03-05-2012, 01:43 PM
  #138
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Ted Leonsis is not Steve Jobs.

AOL is not Apple.

The Washington Capitals are not the Detroit Red Wings.

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Old
03-05-2012, 01:47 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
There were players sold, like Vermette & Pahlsson out of CBJ for instance. Elliot Friedman also mentioned WSH was in on Cody Hodgson before VAN traded him to BUF.

As for a guy like Vermette, I suspect GMGM wanted to trade term in consideration of next season. Which brings me to my next question...
Pahlsson doesn't really add much, couldn't hurt but we might as well have went for Smithson if that's the route we were going for. Vermette has term and supposedly didn't give all that much effort in Columbus. Personally I wanted Kostitsyn if a 2nd and a 4th was the price. Johansson + 2nd for Kassian would have rocked too if Buffalo was interested. Probably not tho. If that goes down, convince Lombardi to swing Loktionov for something around Knuble and filler. Toss Wideman + 3rd to Jersey for Urbom, Foster and a 1st, Vokoun for 2nd and a prospect, Hamrlik + 4th for a 2nd. Ovechkin-Loktionov-Brouwer/Kostitsyn-Perreault-Semin/Chimera-Laich-Kassian/Hendricks-Halpern-Ward. Alzner-Carlson/Schultz-Green/Erskine-Orlov. Next year Backstrom comes back and Kuznetsov becomes 2nd line center. Boom.

Quote:
Other than the UFAs (Knuble, Wideman & Voukoun), how does GMGM get rid of the cap hits with term, without being forced to take on any himself?
There were takers for Hamrlik at the deadline, so he's likely at least worth FC.

GMGM had to outbid half the league for Ward, again, he should be worth at least FC for a team that thinks they can use him well.

Florida would take Laich in a second, a lot of other teams probably as well. His reputation is better than he is.

Schultz is probably worth FC to some team in the league, if not he could always be waived.

Erskine is a player most teams in the league would love to have. Rangers were interested supposedly.

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03-05-2012, 01:51 PM
  #140
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03-05-2012, 01:55 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
I did. I listed 5-6 odd things or so a few pages ago. You didnt say a word about them.

Per page 2

[B][U]"But his shortcomings:

Cant understand lockerroom chemistry, never has

Cant understand the value of veteran leadership, never has

Cant understand what makes a good coach, never has
all of these are wrong, we've had a lot of vets over these few years, our chemistry has been fine, and i think BB is a decent coach and its to early to judge hunter. at the end of the day our team just isnt as good as the other teams this isnt a hockey movie its 95% on how good the players are

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03-05-2012, 01:57 PM
  #142
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Looking at the standings now. Cannot believe the Caps are only 4 points out of a top-5 draft pick. Who would have thought it.

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03-05-2012, 02:03 PM
  #143
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Looking at the standings now. Cannot believe the Caps are only 4 points out of a top-5 draft pick. Who would have thought it.
I would much rather see them get a top 5 pick then make the playoffs as the 8th seed.

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03-05-2012, 02:06 PM
  #144
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I would much rather see them get a top 5 pick then make the playoffs as the 8th seed.
I see pros and cons to both, but I hear you.

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03-05-2012, 02:55 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
I would much rather see them get a top 5 pick then make the playoffs as the 8th seed.
Yup. Pathetically, they will try hard, and most likely fail, for the 8th seed instead.

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03-05-2012, 05:57 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
the standard comment about boudreau was that any monkey could have coached the capitals to their regular season record. that hanlon was less than a monkey.

so, here we are again. any monkey could have built these capitals..eh?

if you think gm's as good as mcphee grow on trees, lets look at sutter and feaster in calgary. kevin lowe in edmonton. brian burke in toronto. bob gainey in montreal. how many cups for clarke and holmgren in philly? talk about playoff failures, its been 10 years since the devils and lou have been out of the second round of the playoffs.

its a good question. what available gm is going to be a better gm than mcphee? dont just fire him because you want some blood because the next guy might be worse.
This position is patently absurd. While its technically possible to make a mistake on the next hire and thus actually find someone worse than GMGM, using that philosophy as a reason to keep someone in place who is not meeting his job requirements, its insane.

There is a simple formula for finding the replacement. You go look at the #2 guy at the other truly successful clubs and you interview several of them and choose the one you feel is the best prepared. The Red Wings get this, which is why they locked Nill up tightly. But there are plenty of other candidates with similar qualifications. Benning in Boston. Henning. Bergevin. I would look at Pittsburghs FO, they run a well oiled machine there that somehow has lived through the loss of Cindy and Malkin for long stretches.

If you're afraid to move GM out because you don't have an iron clad guarantee that the next guy will be better, you're probably one of those people who is afraid to leave the house because you might get run over by a bus or hit by lightning.

BTW, GMGMs ultimate failing is not things like chemistry, or the endless parade of cheap, marginal vets he brings in. His biggest fail is not recognizing the flaws in the "core" he had assembled and making the big shake up move to fix it. Semin and Green are soft players who will never be leaders on a team that is playing in June. Failing to recognize that and moving them when their price was high, for 2 or 3 very solid players in return (each, thats 5 or 6 new players), is what GMGM missed out on. Now their stock is near zero, Ovi can't do it all by himself, and we have absolutely no plan to fix this problem. Holmgren wasn't afraid to shake up his core even after going to a Cup final. And they are now still in the thick of things. He also made the move for Pronger which showed his team he was willing to go for it. GMGM is terrified of big change. He's unwilling to "go for it". He insisted on standing pat with Semin and Green and a collection of also rans around them. And now when we needed them to step up, they were no where to be found. This is the core GMGM bet on. He lost.

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03-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #147
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my point is that mcphee is not at the bottom of the barrel. that replacing him will not be the gimme that some seem to think it will be. not that its possible to take a step backward with the next gm, but that its more than likely. that find a better gm is likely to be difficult.

i am cautioning against the shoot first and ask questions later attitude. shoot first because mcphee deserves to pay. ask if someone is better or even as good that can be hired later.

referencing boudreau. so many thought that boudreau was the problem. that he wasnt a good coach. just in the right place at the right time and that a decent coach replacing him would get real results. boudreau gone....result...flame out.

the next move is critical and needs to be done right. fire mcphee and hire the gm version of bruce cassidy in his stead and the ends up looking like the italian cruiseliner impaled on the rocks.

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03-05-2012, 06:55 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
There's that oversimplification again--it hasn't been 14 years of failure.

It's been 3 years of failure. That's what should get him fired.

It's 14 years of failure no matter how you want to argue pointless crap.


In the 12 seasons since the Finals visit his teams have:

* Missed the playoffs 5 times
* Lost in the 1st round 5 times
* Lost in the 2nd round 2 times as the higher seed.

Season 15 looks like another playoff miss or 1st round exit at best.

Now maybe my standards of excellence are a little higher than yours, but that's failure in my eyes. Not saying he hasn't done some good things, but his time is done. He's had enough of a chance to build this "consistant contender" that he and Ted flap their lip about all the time.

But hey, keep on defending the Captain of the Titanic.

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03-05-2012, 07:09 PM
  #149
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This is the core GMGM bet on. He lost.
However, would Leonsis sign off on a trade involving one of the Young Guns? I tend to doubt it. The whole organizational line of patronizing dynastic thinking begins with the owner which makes it difficult to scapegoat the guy following orders. Granted, his execution within that plan is increasingly suspect but he's likely built up enough of a reserve to withstand this season IMO. The problem for McPhee is that I think he has to back away from Hunter and go in another direction. If he ties himself to Hunter after, say, sputtering down the stretch then both should absolutely be gone.

Still, I'm really not sure Leonsis has the appetite for such turnover. It contradicts The Plan and is an admission of error.

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03-05-2012, 07:28 PM
  #150
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I'm not one that thinks he should automatically go.

I think it's hard to argue with making the playoffs if he should make them, and putting together what should have been a pretty good team on paper.

Sure, it blew up in his face, and I think he deserves a lot of blame for that. However, I also think that if either Green or Backstrom is healthy for the season, and we're not having this conversation. If that's my opinion, then I don't particularly think it's fair to see him go. I do think you have to look at the team, and the ownership as best you can in 5 year windows. Not 14, not 2, but 5. In the last five, they've made the playoffs most of the time (so far they haven't in this one). While they've botched the deal when they got there, it's such a crap shoot that most of the teams take a while to get over the hump.

I wouldn't be completely against his firing, I just worry about what comes next if he does go.

Right now, as I see it, the team should still have another window of 4-5 seasons with a lot of resources and a decent chance of something special. It's not as dire as some have made it out to be (as they're constantly in the game to make themselves look good even if they're pushing losing hands) though there are some serious decisions that must be made. I just wonder if you whack the guy, if it doesn't get worse and farther away from the solution to the puzzle than closer.

the next guy in might make a trade, give away one of the best assets of the club for a small return and turn it into a team that can't make the playoffs instead of should have made them.

I still, in my heart of heart, want to see what this club does with a coach with a real track record. not some guy they called out of Canada who has one foot still in Canada and the whole "I can roll out of here anytime I feel like it" behind him. Give them a coach with a system, with some fire, and with some record, and I think we're not having these concerns.

God knows, I also have no real desire to see some of the names thrown out anywhere near the draft board. Say what you will about McPhee, but he can find first rounders, and that's something they do have this coming draft.


I also laugh a bit that the people who were clamoring for Bruce's head are the same ones with the pitch forks after McPhee. What happens when their latest whipping boy is gone? Drive Ovechkin out? Ted? Some of you just want change for change sake and are deep down in side happy to see them screw up so you can score internet points.

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