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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VII

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Old
03-06-2012, 02:07 PM
  #251
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I don't actually talk to seventies on MSN.. actually, I don't talk to him much at all anymore, period.
Do you have any idea how hard it is fighting ATD crimes without your help?

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03-06-2012, 02:09 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Do you have any idea how hard it is fighting ATD crimes without your help?
Sorry man, I'm on break.

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Old
03-06-2012, 02:09 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Though I'm not suggesting anything (I can't stress this enough), Stamkos did lead the league in PP goals on ice for last season, so that does lead me to believe he was used on the PK, but probably not for defensive prowess.
PP goals on ice for is just that. Goals for.

He only had 2 PPGA, so he barely killed penalties at all.

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03-06-2012, 02:12 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
PP goals on ice for is just that. Goals for.

He only had 2 PPGA, so he barely killed penalties at all.
Wow, facepalm to myself. I totally got my "for" and "against" mixed up. My bad!

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Old
03-06-2012, 02:17 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Glad to see the Stamkos pick sparked some discussion, as that was the goal. Truth be told, I had Stammer on my radar several rounds back, as a couple members here can attest to.
You did well by waiting a bit on Stamkos.

To add to this discussion about longevity and such in the ATD, I will explain how I look at it:

- to me, the top 5 seasons are most important, and if there is a discernable "high peak" of fewer than 5 seasons, that is given a bit of extra weight.

- then, I look at what is considered an average length peak for a given player's era, and compare his peak to that. The seasons between 5 and [average length] are of secondary, but important value to me.

- after that, I basically consider everything else to be an "intangible". I tend to reward guys with exceptional longevity like Bucyk, Howe, Howell and Delvecchio with the intangible quality "consistency" when going through my mental checklist, but I do not punish players who have little value outside of their top [average length] seasons.

So, for example, if average peak length in a given era is 7 seasons, and Player X has a 7 season peak with little value outside of that while Player Y has a 10 season peak with meaningful non-peak value, I don't think there is actually a big difference between their values, ceteris parabis. Player X fulfilled the criteria of what is considered a normal peak. The fact that Player Y has seasons of extra value outside of what was a normal peak for his era indicates to me that he is extraordinarily consistent, which is a nice quality to have, but is essentially an intangible in my way of thinking. So if Players X and Y are similar in terms of their "high peak", top-5 and top-7 seasons, then I'm going to consider them similar from an ATD perspective, with Player Y getting an intangibles bonus, and nothing more.

I think this is a sensible way of looking at the problem. Getting too deep into season-counting leads to the overrating of long-peak players. This is the source of a certain tension between seventies and myself, I suspect, because I know he places greater value on longevity.

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03-06-2012, 02:28 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
that's a good one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Glad to see the Stamkos pick sparked some discussion, as that was the goal. Truth be told, I had Stammer on my radar several rounds back, as a couple members here can attest to.

One thing that's important to realize about my lineup is that it's not done. What I may do is something like this:

XXXXX - Stamkos - Schmautz
Extra: Skov

Where I add a LW who is solid defensively, but also has some offensive upside to his game.

But the main reason I picked Stamkos is, as I said, to be a PP specialist. My team is good enough defensively so that his defensive ineptitude is very much minimized, but I still think we could use some offensive firepower on that 2nd PP unit. I may use Stamkos at centre there, or even on the point if he ever truly excelled there (which I seem to remember that he did).
based on your roster, i don't think you need another PKer or checker. i don't think it would be a problem to make a more offensive 4th line.

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Old
03-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  #257
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
This is the source of a certain tension between seventies and myself, I suspect, because I know he places greater value on longevity.
Yeah, but meaningful longevity... not just for the sake of counting 10, 12, or 15 seasons

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03-06-2012, 03:15 PM
  #258
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Millionares select head coach Mike Keenan.

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03-06-2012, 03:26 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Millionares select head coach Mike Keenan.
Reeeeeally good value pick.

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Old
03-06-2012, 03:30 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Millionares select head coach Mike Keenan.
Have always liked Keenan, guy has a bit of a bad reputation as not being much of a player's coach still he's top 5 all-time in career wins for a head coach in NHL history.

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03-06-2012, 03:37 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Reeeeeally good value pick.
No kidding. Yeah, he's a dick, but he's also a good coach.

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03-06-2012, 03:40 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Reeeeeally good value pick.
The run of Soviet and even Czech coaches before him is what has me puzzled (other than Tarasov and Tikhonov).

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03-06-2012, 04:12 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Millionares select head coach Mike Keenan.
Awesome pick... if you have Keenan-type players. Keenan is one of the best coaches in the draft if you have the right kind of team. If you don't, you have an implosion.

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Old
03-06-2012, 04:17 PM
  #264
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Awesome pick... if you have Keenan-type players. Keenan is one of the best coaches in the draft if you have the right kind of team. If you don't, you have an implosion.
I don't know that I do (I know what you're sayin' - Keenan was a Canuck coach afterall), I simply went with BCA. I will give my team the perfect assistant coach...probably with my next pick in 14 spots here.

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03-06-2012, 04:18 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You implied earlier that this is higher than you could justify drafting Timonen. Why is that? I think he's a very good pick here, though I do think people are probably overrating his puckmoving skills at even-strength.
In an era that is pretty weak in an all time context among defensemen, he has one good 5th place finish in Norris voting, and a 5th, 14th, and 15th in all star voting among placements that matter.

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03-06-2012, 04:19 PM
  #266
Hawkey Town 18
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No PM, but I think I'm up...is this correct?

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Old
03-06-2012, 04:20 PM
  #267
tony d
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
No PM, but I think I'm up...is this correct?
Yes you are.

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Old
03-06-2012, 04:21 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
In an era that is pretty weak in an all time context among defensemen, he has one good 5th place finish in Norris voting, and a 5th, 14th, and 15th in all star voting among placements that matter.
I don't see why you consider this a weak time for all defensemen. The top end talent isn't what it was in the late 70s or late 80s/early 90s, but the average NHL defenseman is better than he ever was.

To put it another way, I don't think finishing 5th in AS defense voting is as good as doing it in the late 80s, but I think finishing 14th/15th might be even better than doing it in the late 80s.

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03-06-2012, 04:30 PM
  #269
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Keenan might just drive Ken Dryden to look into his options for the winter term at McGill law school...

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Old
03-06-2012, 04:37 PM
  #270
TheDevilMadeMe
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Keenan might just drive Ken Dryden to look into his options for the winter term at McGill law school...
If you're going to draft Keenan, having a strong backup goalie helps for sure!

MB must have been determined to make Cheevers relevant in the playoffs... heh

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03-06-2012, 04:40 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you're going to draft Keenan, having a strong backup goalie helps for sure!

MB must have been determined to make Cheevers relevant in the playoffs... heh
It's all in the blueprint.

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03-06-2012, 04:44 PM
  #272
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Keenan might just drive Ken Dryden to look into his options for the winter term at McGill law school...
Lol...yeah. But then again, Scotty Bowman was a man about whom it was said that his team hated him every day of the year except the day they lifted the Cup. I generally take a fairly generous position on taskmaster coaches so long as they have a track record of being able to work with their players. Keenan's record is somewhat mixed in that regard and he was definitely known for running guys he didn't like out of town (often for zero or poor value from an organizational perspective), but then again, Keenan is probably the biggest hardass in the ATD not named Imlach.

My biggest question is how will Keenan come to grips with Drillon and Reinhart on his top unit.

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03-06-2012, 04:47 PM
  #273
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Lol...yeah. But then again, Scotty Bowman was a man about whom it was said that his team hated him every day of the year except the day they lifted the Cup. I generally take a fairly generous position on taskmaster coaches so long as they have a track record of being able to work with their players. Keenan's record is somewhat mixed in that regard and he was definitely known for running guys he didn't like out of town (often for zero or poor value from an organizational perspective), but then again, Keenan is probably the biggest hardass in the ATD not named Imlach.

My biggest question is how will Keenan come to grips with Drillon and Reinhart on his top unit.
I see him benching Drillon for poor defense by about game 15 of the season...

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03-06-2012, 04:48 PM
  #274
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I see him benching Drillon for poor defense by about game 15 of the season...
...followed by four straight wins.

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Old
03-06-2012, 04:56 PM
  #275
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Is Drillon really that different from Kerr?

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