HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-07-2012, 12:37 PM
  #326
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I see your point about his lows, but he had more than a couple peak seasons. His 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 Vezina record is good and he played very well in 2 Cup wins in years where he didn't have a Vezina finish. That's 7 notable seasons.
I agree he was excellent in his two cup wins.

He was also very good in those five seasons you’re referring to.

But sort of like an undrafted modern goalie, some of his lows offset those highs.

In his career, he averaged one sv% point above the league average in the playoffs, and 4 above in the regular season.

Cujo averaged 5 above in the regular season (maintained over 30% more minutes and destroyed by his seasons as a 39-41 year old, he was a +7 before that) and a +5 in the playoffs (maintained over more minutes, again)

I think that looking at their Vezina records is a good way to judge their peak performance too, but Barrasso didn’t have the competition at the top that Joseph had. If we eliminate Hasek and Roy as generational goaltending talents and assume Brodeur is “just another great goalie like you’d find in any era”, their vezina records look like this:

Joseph: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3
Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2

They are actually closer than I thought overall. I’d still take Joseph, no doubt. But, Barrasso can hang in that group if he wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I dont see much difference between Portland and Arnstrong in value.
Me neither.

seventieslord is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 12:39 PM
  #327
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I see your point about his lows, but he had more than a couple peak seasons. His 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 Vezina record is good and he played very well in 2 Cup wins in years where he didn't have a Vezina finish. That's 7 notable seasons.
Exactly. It's not like Barrasso's peak was actually short. He was up and down a bit due to injury, but he is not a short-peak player. I don't buy for a second that Joseph playing longer as a "good" goalie makes up for the obvious peak and postseason performance gap between he and Barrasso.

Barrasso's role on those back-to-back Cup winners in Pittsburgh is really underrated. He was the rock that allowed that team to play a very lack defensive system in front of him. Barrasso dominated a lot of games for those Pens teams with his glove hand and puckmoving.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 12:43 PM
  #328
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If we eliminate Hasek and Roy as generational goaltending talents and assume Brodeur is “just another great goalie like you’d find in any era”, their vezina records look like this:

Joseph: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3
Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2
You're eliminating two goalies now for a Vezina voting comparison?! I have serious issues with your methods of removing outliers.

This reminds me of the Bobby Orr // Bill White discussion in the HOH defensemen thread; it is not Orr's existence which was the outlier, but rather the quality of his dominance. Same for Hasek and Roy. Removing outliers is for percentage comparisons. That you do it for voting comparisons is deeply flawed.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 12:57 PM
  #329
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Mostly because of injuries, which I don't think is relevant in the ATD provided you give him a decent backup and don't overplay him in the regular season. Goalie injuries aren't the same as skater injuries in this thing because goalies aren't absorbing a lot of contact. When healthy, Barrasso was a Vezina finalist 5 times, iirc, which is the best top-5 season performance out of the group. His ups and downs were health-related, not performance-related, and like I said...I don't see much risk of Barrasso blowing out his shoulder during an ATD season as long as you keep his regular season workload reasonable.

Barrasso has the best playoff record from that group - yes, including Holmes, about whose actual playoff performances we know little, and at any rate it was much easier to win multiple Cups in his era.

Your strange dislike for Tom Barrasso gets right at the heart of what I find silly about your way of evaluating players. I don't see much of an argument that Joseph was better, especially in a playoff format. Barrasso has a better peak and better playoff resume, and neither one is close. Yeah, I know it means a lot to you that Joseph was "good" for a bunch of years, but I just don't see any reason why that should place him above a guy who was both more talented and more decorated.

Basically, I think your method of evaluating players is sensible in a hockey hall of fame setting where the full length and breadth of a guy's career is important and great longevity is a big plus. In the ATD, however, I think your method breaks down and Barrasso vs. Joseph is a perfect example of that.
I don’t have a strange dislike for Barrasso or even a dislike at all. And I don’t have a set method for evaluating goalies. Usually if it’s guys I saw a lot of, I go with my gut, and things like Vezina voting and sv% are used merely for illustrative purposes. Even if the “top-3” nature of the vezina voting doesn’t really reflect it, I see Cujo as a goalie that was regarded as a top-5 goalie in the game pretty much from 1993 straight through 2003. Barrasso, he was hit and miss. Sometimes a top-5 goalie, other times just another starting goalie.

You hammer home the peak argument all the time, but that method is fraught with peril when we talk about goaltenders. The list of goaltenders to make a postseason all-star team has more footnotes in history than all other positions combined, because the nature of the position is that it’s so streaky and unpredictable from year to year. (but what peak value those guys had!) We absolutely should be concerned with what the consistent level of play a goaltender delivered in his career was. We should not only be concerned with his peak because no goalie played at that level all the time. In an ATD season you are going to see those hills, and those valleys. You should be as concerned with how low the valleys were, as you are with how high the hills were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You're eliminating two goalies now for a Vezina voting comparison?! I have serious issues with your methods of removing outliers.

This reminds me of the Bobby Orr // Bill White discussion in the HOH defensemen thread; it is not Orr's existence which was the outlier, but rather the quality of his dominance. Same for Hasek and Roy. Removing outliers is for percentage comparisons. That you do it for voting comparisons is deeply flawed.
Whatever you say man. I don't agree whatsoever. It’s clear that 1992-2004 was a much better era for goaltenders than 1984-1997, and removing Roy and Hasek doesn’t even truly do that justice. With three goalies getting votes every year, Vezina voting can’t truly reflect where Joseph ranked in hockey’s pecking order over the course of his career. Good on Barrasso for getting enough of those votes regularly, but having little competition from Roy and Hasek obviously made that easier, and why an unbiased observer would gloss over that is beyond me.

seventieslord is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 12:57 PM
  #330
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree he was excellent in his two cup wins.

He was also very good in those five seasons you’re referring to.

But sort of like an undrafted modern goalie, some of his lows offset those highs.

In his career, he averaged one sv% point above the league average in the playoffs, and 4 above in the regular season.

Cujo averaged 5 above in the regular season (maintained over 30% more minutes and destroyed by his seasons as a 39-41 year old, he was a +7 before that) and a +5 in the playoffs (maintained over more minutes, again)

I think that looking at their Vezina records is a good way to judge their peak performance too, but Barrasso didn’t have the competition at the top that Joseph had. If we eliminate Hasek and Roy as generational goaltending talents and assume Brodeur is “just another great goalie like you’d find in any era”, their vezina records look like this:

Joseph: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3
Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2

They are actually closer than I thought overall. I’d still take Joseph, no doubt. But, Barrasso can hang in that group if he wants.



Me neither.
Interesting, I took a look at the effect removing Brodeur would have on both (still keeping Roy and Hasek out). He bumps Joseph up from a 3rd to 2nd, but moves Barrasso up from a 2nd to 1st. I would have thought that removing Brodeur would have had the bigger effect on Joseph, but it actually helps Barrasso more.

Note: that's only counting top 3 finishes, removing Brodeur moves Joseph up from 4th to 5th one other year


EDIT: Might be more fair to make Roy the goalie we leave in as he has the most prime overlap with both. I'll take a look at how things shake out in that scenario in a little while.


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 03-07-2012 at 01:10 PM.
Hawkey Town 18 is online now  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:30 PM
  #331
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,219
vCash: 500
Barrasso vs. Joseph

Here are a few different scenarios involving removing 2 or 3 of Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur and seeing how it affects each player's Vezina record...


Remove Hasek and Roy, Keep Brodeur
Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2
Joseph: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

Remove Hasek and Brodeur, Keep Roy
Barrasso: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Joseph: 1, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4

Remove Roy and Brodeur, Keep Hasek
Barrasso: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2
Joseph: 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4

Remove All 3
Barrasso: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Joseph: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3

Hawkey Town 18 is online now  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:32 PM
  #332
Stoneberg
Bored
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
With one of the weaker starters, I need a strong back-up goalie before we go on a run of them.

I'll take the BGA, John Vanbiesbrouck.

will PM next.

Stoneberg is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:34 PM
  #333
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,709
vCash: 9000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I'm not a fan of removing guys in voting finishes. It completely eliminates the fact that those guys were so far ahead of everyone else, and overrates the guys that are left. There's also no perspective of how guys were like there are in percentages(we can see a guy was 80% of 2nd place), but with removing guys with voting finishes, there is no scope of how the guys stack up with each other. Not a fan of it at all.

BillyShoe1721 is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:37 PM
  #334
tony d
The franchise
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,261
vCash: 500
Garnish finishes off it's starting 12 forward corps with Frank "Pud" Glass.



Will do a bio on him in the bio thread later but Glass will bring a good 2 way game to my bottom line with Crawford and Ronty, really good way to end off my starting 18.

Pming next.

__________________
tony d is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #335
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
The Pittsburgh Bankers select gritty 4th line RW Cully Wilson

JFA87-66-99 is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:46 PM
  #336
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
The Pittsburgh Bankers select gritty 4th line RW Cully Wilson
Was hoping, along with others would slide to my next pick. Argh.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 01:52 PM
  #337
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,236
vCash: 50
nik jr. listpick calle johansson

BenchBrawl is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #338
monster_bertuzzi
registered user
 
monster_bertuzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,525
vCash: 500
I'm here.

Remember that perfect assistant I was talking about?

John Tortotrella.

monster_bertuzzi is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #339
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Whatever you say man. I don't agree whatsoever. It’s clear that 1992-2004 was a much better era for goaltenders than 1984-1997, and removing Roy and Hasek doesn’t even truly do that justice. With three goalies getting votes every year, Vezina voting can’t truly reflect where Joseph ranked in hockey’s pecking order over the course of his career. Good on Barrasso for getting enough of those votes regularly, but having little competition from Roy and Hasek obviously made that easier, and why an unbiased observer would gloss over that is beyond me.
It is fine to point out that the competition Joseph faced was tougher than what Barrasso faced in the first part of his career, but you take it way too far when you eliminate Roy and Hasek from a comparison of voting finishes. What you are doing is rationally flawed, and you seem to be the only one who actually believes that such methodology is sensible.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #340
Hawkman
Moderator
 
Hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,252
vCash: 500
1893 Montreal AAA is proud to select LW Jan Erixon who played for the Rangers in the late-80's/early-90's. Erixon is typically not an ATDer, but he should be, because he was an excellent pure checker. Here is his Selke record:

1986-87: 7th
1987-88: 3rd
1988-89: 9th
1989-90: 6th
1990-91: 8th
1991-92: a couple of votes. Pming Nalyd Psycho.

Hawkman is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #341
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Garnish finishes off it's starting 12 forward corps with Frank "Pud" Glass.



Will do a bio on him in the bio thread later but Glass will bring a good 2 way game to my bottom line with Crawford and Ronty, really good way to end off my starting 18.

Pming next.
I had Pud Glass #2 on my list behind Cully Wilson. I just liked Cully Wilson's toughness and agitation that he brings to my team, he'll be a unique asset to my team. I really like Pud Glass, I think he's a very underrated 2-way player who can provide some offensive spark at times. I wonder why or if he was ever considered for the Hall of Fame, he's one of those players kinda forgotten by time?

JFA87-66-99 is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #342
Hawkman
Moderator
 
Hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,252
vCash: 500
I have all my starters! arrbez, put some fresh ice cubes in the glass one, because tonight we're gonna party like it's 1999!

Hawkman is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #343
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,769
vCash: 500
Ever make a pick one year, and then feel like you misused them? Kinda makes you want to do right by the player the next year right? With that in mind...

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select 618th overall, from Havlíčkův Brod, Czechoslovakia, Jaroslav Holík, C

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:03 PM
  #344
Dwight
The French Tickler
 
Dwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,785
vCash: 500
Ab McDonald, LW/C

Guess a coach will have to wait!

Dwight is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:06 PM
  #345
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
1893 Montreal AAA is proud to select LW Jan Erixon who played for the Rangers in the late-80's/early-90's. Erixon is typically not an ATDer, but he should be, because he was an excellent pure checker. Here is his Selke record:

1986-87: 7th
1987-88: 3rd
1988-89: 9th
1989-90: 6th
1990-91: 8th
1991-92: a couple of votes. Pming Nalyd Psycho.
Gah, nothing special offensively, but definitely a guy I was hoping to snag as a spare. Nice pick GMM.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:11 PM
  #346
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
Erixon is probably the worst forward offensively that will be drafted, and his durability is a definite question mark, but definitely an ATD level defensive forward.

vecens24 is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:15 PM
  #347
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,230
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Erixon is probably the worst forward offensively that will be drafted, and his durability is a definite question mark, but definitely an ATD level defensive forward.
IMO, his complete lack of offense as a forward makes him a liability at this level, but I realize other GMs differ on that one

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:23 PM
  #348
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,212
vCash: 500
Erixon could produce but he wasnt used that way.

jkrx is offline  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:26 PM
  #349
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,230
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Erixon could produce but he wasnt used that way.
Plenty of others were used that way and managed to chip in some more points here and there.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
03-07-2012, 03:35 PM
  #350
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,212
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Plenty of others were used that way and managed to chip in some more points here and there.
from that era and still available and with that selke record?

Edit: I'm not completely disagreeing with you and there are better guys out there but for a pure defensive forward Erixon is not a bad choice at this stage and he can chip in a little.

jkrx is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.