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Vladislav Tretiak

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11-08-2004, 04:46 PM
  #1
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Vladislav Tretiak

It has always been my belief that Tretiak is one of the most over rated playes in hockey history.


I took a brief look at the recently published "75 best arguments/debates" published by The Hockey News. The article regarding Tretiak and what kind of NHL goalie he would have been agreed with my thoughts.



Discuss .. and i'll offer more of my thoughts during the discussion.

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11-08-2004, 05:48 PM
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Big Phil
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Bobby Clarke once siad that Tretiak was an average goalie on very good teams. But he had some very good games and tournys. The '81 Canada Cup MVP, '72 Summit Series. And I cant name any goalies in the HOF that shouldnt be there right off the top of my head.

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11-08-2004, 05:54 PM
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In my mind, I could never agree with his selection based on tournament play, only.Personally I judge a goalie based on his performance over the long haul. It's become fashionable to list him amongst the greats but I don't know how his season play could ever be extrapolated to be considered. Could he have been a great goalie over 10 straight 80 game seasons, maybe but who knows.

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11-08-2004, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Bobby Clarke once siad that Tretiak was an average goalie on very good teams. But he had some very good games and tournys. The '81 Canada Cup MVP, '72 Summit Series. And I cant name any goalies in the HOF that shouldnt be there right off the top of my head.
Clarke is quoted in the article, and said esseentially that, Tretiak was an average goalie on great hockey teams.

Other items in the article spoke about that Tretiak played very very well the first four games of the 1972 Summit Series (.902 sv%), but then was poor during the games in Moscow (.855 sv%) . Gave up the winner to Henderson from the blueline in game 6, and then game up three 3rd period goals in the decisive game 8.

It did bring up his wins in 1981 and the great game against the Habs in 1976 ... also brought up his poor play vs. The US in 1980 and against the Flyers in 1976.

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11-08-2004, 08:31 PM
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One can only guess at how he would have fared in the NHL because he never got the chance but having seen him play many times I believe he would have excelled.

In 72 he was only 20, played the Euro style, which was deep in the net and played in all 8 games if memory serves. Those games were extremely intense, which had to wear mentally. Dryden and Esposito were alternating.

I just watched the tape in the past week of the New Years Eve 1975 game (Red Army/Habs) where he was brilliant. His list of accomplishments is lengthy. I believe he went undefeated in his final season. As I remember it, he retired partly because he was not allowed to join the NHL.

He could play goal on my team anytime.

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11-08-2004, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke is quoted in the article, and said esseentially that, Tretiak was an average goalie on great hockey teams.

Other items in the article spoke about that Tretiak played very very well the first four games of the 1972 Summit Series (.902 sv%), but then was poor during the games in Moscow (.855 sv%) . Gave up the winner to Henderson from the blueline in game 6, and then game up three 3rd period goals in the decisive game 8.

It did bring up his wins in 1981 and the great game against the Habs in 1976 ... also brought up his poor play vs. The US in 1980 and against the Flyers in 1976.
Ok anyone can bring up poor play here or poor play their - name me ONE player who never had atleast a couple of bad games, lets look at the only individual stat of the 72 series that matters, the save % which he was the best of all three (0.884 compared to 0.882 and 0.838). So that right there says he was the best goaltender in that series, since any goalie knows that there is one think they can control and that is the ampunt of saves you make compared to the amount of shots.

Then you point out his perhaps ONE bad game in the 1980 olympics, some 4 years before his retirement (basically on the downside of his carrer), what about the THREE OTHER gold medals he won in the Olympics, name me ANY OTHER GOALIE that can do that as a starting goalie, not riding the pine. What about his 10 world championships and 9 world championships as well. Find me any other goalie that could do that ?

Finally one of the biggest ways to determine how good a player was, is the legacy he IS leaving. Look at the students that he has directly worked with: Thibault, Belfour, Nabakov, and Khabibulin, not to mention that his teaching is STILL as prominent during the renaissance of goaltending over the last 5-10 years as it was when he was still playing. That is why he is one of the best ever.

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11-08-2004, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
Ok anyone can bring up poor play here or poor play their - name me ONE player who never had atleast a couple of bad games, lets look at the only individual stat of the 72 series that matters, the save % which he was the best of all three (0.884 compared to 0.882 and 0.838). So that right there says he was the best goaltender in that series, since any goalie knows that there is one think they can control and that is the ampunt of saves you make compared to the amount of shots.

Then you point out his perhaps ONE bad game in the 1980 olympics, some 4 years before his retirement (basically on the downside of his carrer), what about the THREE OTHER gold medals he won in the Olympics, name me ANY OTHER GOALIE that can do that as a starting goalie, not riding the pine. What about his 10 world championships and 9 world championships as well. Find me any other goalie that could do that ?
#1. His teaching has nothing to do with how he played goal.

#2. When playing in the Olympics/World Champs the Soviets were overwhelming favorites every time Tretiak played less than 50 games in his life where his team was not a huge favortie to win.

His teams in the Olympics, World Champs and Russian league games were always huge, huge favorites going in.

#3. The individual stat that mattered most in the 72 Summit Series was W's & L's. Bottom line is he game up 3 goals in the 3rd period of the deciding game.

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11-08-2004, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
In 72 he was only 20, played the Euro style, which was deep in the net and played in all 8 games if memory serves. Those games were extremely intense, which had to wear mentally. Dryden and Esposito were alternating.
8 games in 27 days. NHL goalies often play 7 playoff games in the span of 14 days.

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11-08-2004, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. His teaching has nothing to do with how he played goal.

#2. When playing in the Olympics/World Champs the Soviets were overwhelming favorites every time Tretiak played less than 50 games in his life where his team was not a huge favortie to win.

His teams in the Olympics, World Champs and Russian league games were always huge, huge favorites going in.

#3. The individual stat that mattered most in the 72 Summit Series was W's & L's. Bottom line is he game up 3 goals in the 3rd period of the deciding game.
#1 really, hmm why don't you see oh I don't know (insert whatever average goalie here), teaching the stars that I have mentioned. If a guy as accomplished like him speaks you listen since obviously he knows what he is doing and he know what he is doing because he is that good. If Gretzky teaches you to pass you do what he says because he is the best at it.

#2 Was Canada not overwhelming favorites in the 98 Olympics, with who was supose to be the best goalie in the world in nets for us. Great Goalies win when it matters no matter if they are underdogs or favorite. The reason they were such favorites was the fact he was in net.

#3 How is an individual stat either a win or a lss, hmm seems to me that that is as much on the team as it is as the goalie, once again there is ONLY ONE indivdual stat that a GOALIE CONTROLs, that can be mesured against any other goalie and that is his save percentage.

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11-08-2004, 08:57 PM
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Name one great goaltender that didn't play on some loaded teams though, really the only one I can think of is Hasek. Dryden played on the 70's Canadians, Parent played on the 70's Flyers, Cheevers played on the 70's Bruins, Fuhr played on the 80's Oilers, Smith played on the 70's/80's Islanders. Really every great goaltender has played on some great teams. Does that mean that those goaltenders are not as good as a result.

I tend to think that Clarke is a bit peeved about Tretiak being the star of the Summit Series, and it has clouded his judgement a wee bit. Was the Soviet Red Army (in the Russian league) a stacked team, while yeah. But does that make Tretiak a worse goaltender.

He was the best goaltender in Europe on many occasions (Jiri Holitek being the other) at the world championships, which featured some impressive tallent from all European nations. I think that Clarke is out to lunch on this one.

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11-08-2004, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
8 games in 27 days. NHL goalies often play 7 playoff games in the span of 14 days.
I believe there was an interval when the series switched continents. But those games were not comparable to any hockey games ever played before or since. Watch the tape of Clarke breaking Kharlamov's leg, it really was war on ice. The pressure on both teams was immense.

The impression that I see time and again on these boards is that a goal or a game result is 100% the due to the goaler. There is a bigger picture.

Wins and losses are team stats.

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11-08-2004, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
Name one great goaltender that didn't play on some loaded teams though, really the only one I can think of is Hasek. Dryden played on the 70's Canadians, Parent played on the 70's Flyers, Cheevers played on the 70's Bruins, Fuhr played on the 80's Oilers, Smith played on the 70's/80's Islanders. Really every great goaltender has played on some great teams. Does that mean that those goaltenders are not as good as a result.

I tend to think that Clarke is a bit peeved about Tretiak being the star of the Summit Series, and it has clouded his judgement a wee bit. Was the Soviet Red Army (in the Russian league) a stacked team, while yeah. But does that make Tretiak a worse goaltender.

He was the best goaltender in Europe on many occasions (Jiri Holitek being the other) at the world championships, which featured some impressive tallent from all European nations. I think that Clarke is out to lunch on this one.
There is a huge difference between a great NHL team and the dominance the Soviets had over the rest of the world at major international tourney's.

Only the Habs of the late 70's were even close to that level of dominance.

Clarke didn't write the article, just quoted in it.

Clarke was much rather have won the series than been declared the "star".

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11-08-2004, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke is quoted in the article, and said esseentially that, Tretiak was an average goalie on great hockey teams.

Other items in the article spoke about that Tretiak played very very well the first four games of the 1972 Summit Series (.902 sv%), but then was poor during the games in Moscow (.855 sv%) . Gave up the winner to Henderson from the blueline in game 6, and then game up three 3rd period goals in the decisive game 8.

It did bring up his wins in 1981 and the great game against the Habs in 1976 ... also brought up his poor play vs. The US in 1980 and against the Flyers in 1976.
If I remember correctly Tretiak was subbed after a period in the USA game because of an injury, so I'm not sure he played poorly in 1980, I could be wrong though.

I don't really know if he's overrated, however it seems to me that the overtones of your arguments are a bit disingenuous towards Tretiak's acheivements. We will never know if he was as good as he was during international play, since he never crossed over to the NHL but the man is a legend.

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11-08-2004, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astaroth
If I remember correctly Tretiak was subbed after a period in the USA game because of an injury, so I'm not sure he played poorly in 1980, I could be wrong though.

I don't really know if he's overrated, however it seems to me that the overtones of your arguments are a bit disingenuous towards Tretiak's acheivements. We will never know if he was as good as he was during international play, since he never crossed over to the NHL but the man is a legend.
Tikhonov actually pulled him because of a fluke goal to make it 2-2.

http://www.iihf.com/news/iihfpr7701.htm

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11-08-2004, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
Tikhonov actually pulled him because of a fluke goal to make it 2-2.
Trietiak gave up two very poor goals.

The first was an unscreened 50 foot slapshot from Buzz Schnieder. The second, the Mark Johnson goal with 1 second remaining came after Tretiak laid out a big juicy rebound on a shot from the red line. Johnson grabbed it, made a quick move and beat Tretiak at the buzzer.

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11-08-2004, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
8 games in 27 days. NHL goalies often play 7 playoff games in the span of 14 days.
Seriously this reasoning is severly flawed, here are the dates of the games played

First Russia flew here to play:

Sept 2 Montreal
Sept 4 Toronto
Sept 6 Winnipeg
Sept 8 Vancouver

Tretiak played 4 games in 7 days travelling accross Canada from Montreal To Vancouver, not like the alternating that Canada did. That makes his numbers in the first four games more impressive

Then they flew to Russia to play:

Sept 22, 24, 26, and 28 in Moscow

Once again 4 games in 7 days all played by Tretiak.

It would be a stretch for any NHL team to match that road schedule, especially the one in Canada.

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11-08-2004, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
Seriously this reasoning is severly flawed, here are the dates of the games played

First Russia flew here to play:

Sept 2 Montreal
Sept 4 Toronto
Sept 6 Winnipeg
Sept 8 Vancouver

Tretiak played 4 games in 7 days travelling accross Canada from Montreal To Vancouver, not like the alternating that Canada did. That makes his numbers in the first four games more impressive

Then they flew to Russia to play:

Sept 22, 24, 26, and 28 in Moscow

Once again 4 games in 7 days all played by Tretiak.

It would be a stretch for any NHL team to match that road schedule, especially the one in Canada.
NHL teams do that all the time. Jus taking a quick look at the Flyers schedule from last year.

Wed - Nov. 26 @ Pitt
Fri - Nov 28 Philly
Sat - Nov 29 @ NY Isles
Mon - Dec 1 @ Ott

then

Sat - Dec 27 @ Col
Mon - Dec 29 @ Dal
Tue - Dec 30 @ St. Lou
Fri - Jan 2 @ Miami
Sat - Jan 3 @ Tampa

Teams from the Western Conference have it far worse

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11-08-2004, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
NHL teams do that all the time. Jus taking a quick look at the Flyers schedule from last year.

Wed - Nov. 26 @ Pitt
Fri - Nov 28 Philly
Sat - Nov 29 @ NY Isles
Mon - Dec 1 @ Ott

then

Sat - Dec 27 @ Col
Mon - Dec 29 @ Dal
Tue - Dec 30 @ St. Lou
Fri - Jan 2 @ Miami
Sat - Jan 3 @ Tampa

Teams from the Western Conference have it far worse
You logic defies me compare that schedule to 1972, playing, almost, The BEST opponent in the word, once again before the perks that these guys get today.

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11-08-2004, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
You logic defies me compare that schedule to 1972, playing, almost, The BEST opponent in the word, once again before the perks that these guys get today.
Playing every other night is not a greuling schedule. It's exaclty how the NHL playoffs have been run forever.

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11-08-2004, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
It's exaclty how the NHL playoffs have been run forever.
To elaborate on your point, sometimes they have been run longer than every other day, but not even close to the most part. The 2 nights in 2003 when the Wild/Avalanche and Flyers/Leafs played Games 6 and 7 in back to back nights, was the first time that ever happened on the same night, and the first two times in something like 60 years that Games 6 and 7 were on back to back nights.


BTW, to the other poster, not playing between Sept. 8 and Sept. 22 is a long layoff, it is a different time, but team Finland played a game in Finland during the World Cup, then flew across an ocean and had one day off

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11-09-2004, 07:46 AM
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There are no NHL games, including playoffs which compare to the Summit series.

The fact that it is still widely discussed today proves that.

If you were in Canada or Russia at that time, then you understand. They were much more than hockey games for the two countries.

The fact that Tretiak has been in the hall of fame for some time and guys like Mikhailov and Kharlamov have yet to be inducted (I believe they'll be in there eventually) tells you the respect that top hockey people had for his play. And I concur with them.

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11-09-2004, 08:07 AM
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Like Brodeur the system makes a very good goalie look world class. I love Marty but if Marty played for the NY Islanders instead on NJ in the mid to late 90's he wouldnt have 1/2 the praise he has now.


Best all time goalie.....

Unfortunatly its Patrick Roy.

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11-09-2004, 08:09 AM
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Tretiak was a good goalie but he shouldn't be in the Hall or considered one of the all-time greats. He was unable to hold a commanding lead in the '72 series, giving up 13 goals on home ice in the final three games. He lost again to a bunch of teenagers in 1980. All those Olympic and world golds were won on uneven playing fields that were slanted heavily toward the Soviets. He obviously had his moments ('81 Canada Cup and '75 New Year's Eve game against Montreal) but his record against Canada's best was a losing one and there's no getting around that.

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11-09-2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
The fact that Tretiak has been in the hall of fame for some time and guys like Mikhailov and Kharlamov have yet to be inducted (I believe they'll be in there eventually) tells you the respect that top hockey people had for his play. And I concur with them.
That means nothing at all. The HHoF is incredibly screwed up. Sergei Makarov was at worst the 3rd best RW of the 80's, and IMO 2nd (just a hair behind Bossy) and he isn't in the Hall or likely to make it any time soon.

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11-09-2004, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
That means nothing at all. The HHoF is incredibly screwed up. Sergei Makarov was at worst the 3rd best RW of the 80's, and IMO 2nd (just a hair behind Bossy) and he isn't in the Hall or likely to make it any time soon.
It means nothing to you.

This is the hall of fame commitee...

Quote:
Selection Committee
James M. Gregory, Chairman
Jim Gregory served as the General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs from 1969 to 1979. He later ran the NHL's Central Scouting department, and presently serves as the Senior Vice-President of Hockey Operations for the National Hockey League's Toronto office.

Al Arbour
Born in Sudbury Ontario, Al Arbour played 626 games in the NHL with Detroit, Chicago, Toronto and St. Louis, winning back-to-back Cups with the Leafs and Blackhawks in '61 and '62. In 1970-1971 he turned to coaching. As a coach He was instrumental is bringing four consecutive Stanley Cups to the New York Islanders in the 1980s. Arbour was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the builder category in 1996.

Scotty Bowman
Elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1991 in the Builders' Category, Scotty Bowman's success over his 30-year NHL coaching career includes nine Stanley Cup victories, one more than the legendary Toe Blake. Bowman retired from coaching after leading the Detroit Red Wings to the Stanley Cup in 2002 and currently serves as a consultant to the team.

Ed Chynoweth
Ed Chynoweth has been one of hockey's most respected administrators while serving as president of the Canadian Hockey League and the Western Canada Junior Hockey League. After stepping down from these duties he remained in the WHL as a member of the League's Board of Directors and as the owner of the Edmonton Ice.

John Davidson
A native of Ottawa, Ontario , John Davidson played his junior hockey in Western Canada before playing in over 300 regular season games from 1973 to 1983 in the National Hockey League with St Louis and the New York Rangers. A veteran in the media circuit as a hockey analyst, Davidson is viewed as one of the best in his profession. Recently John Davidson's resume includes Hockey Night in Canada and the Hot Stove Lounge, ESPN, ABC and the MSG Network.

Eric Duhatschek
Duhatschek began covering the Calgary Flames in the late 1970s and currently serves as the Globe and Mail's primary western hockey correspondent. He was presented the Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award for distinguished hockey journalism in 2001.

Mike Emrick
In 2001 Mike Emrick worked his 21st consecutive year as a play-by-play announcer in the NHL. In all he has 30-plus years experience behind the mike. He is the long time voice of the New Jersey Devils. He has received the national cable TV Ace Award for the best play-by-play and won the Emmy in 1997 in the New York region for Devils telecasts.

Emile Francis
The former goaltender began his coaching career with the Guelph Biltmore Mad Hatters Junior team. He next moved on to the parent New York Ranger's Hockey Club where he eventually served as Coach and General Manager -- a dual role he later also filled with the St. Louis Blues and Hartford Whalers. He was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builder Category in 1982.

Dick Irvin
A well-known broadcaster throughout Canada, Dick Irvin started covering hockey for the Montreal station CFCF in 1962. Four years later he joined Hockey Night in Canada and in 1988 was the recipient of the Foster Hewitt Memorial Award.

Stan Mikita
Stan Mikita played center on the Chicago Blackhawks from 1959 to 1980. He registered 541 goals and 1,467 points in 1,394 regular season games and was a member of the Hawks' Stanley Cup championship in 1961. He was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Player Category in 1983.

Richard M. Patrick
The son of Muzz Patrick and the grandson of Lester Patrick, Richard M. Patrick was a successful lawyer in Washington, D.C. before he got involved with hockey. He was part of a group that invested in the Washington Capitals and later became the club's President in 1985.

Marty Pavelich
Marty Pavelich played left wing on the Detroit Red Wings from 1947 to 1957 where he won four Stanley Cups. Following the end of his playing career he was part of a number of successful business ventures.

Pat Quinn
Pat Quinn spent nine years in the NHL playing defense for the Toronto Maple Leafs, Vancouver Canucks and Atlanta Flames. After retiring as a player, he served as a coach and General Manager with the Philadelphia Flyers, Los Angeles Kings and Vancouver Canucks. He is currently the Head Coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Bertrand Raymond
Bertrand Raymond began his career with le Progres du Saguenay in 1967 and later moved on to cover the Canadiens for le Journal de Montreal. He was presented the Hockey Hall of Fame's Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award in 1990.

Serge Savard
A standout defenseman on the Montreal Canadiens (1966-81) and Winnipeg Jets (1981-83), Savard won seven Stanley Cups with the Habs. He later served as General Manager of the Canadiens from 1983 to 1995 and was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Player category in 1986.

Frank Selke
The son of Frank Selke, Sr. held executive positions with the Montreal Canadiens and Oakland/California Seals as well as many colour commentary assignments on hockey broadcasts. He has been a successful businessman and served as the President of the Ontario Special Olympics.

Harry Sinden
Harry Sinden was a fine amateur player who led the Whitby Dunlops to the World Hockey Championship in 1958. He also coached the Boston Bruins to the Stanley Cup in 1970, Team Canada to victory in the 1972 Summit Series as was hired as the General Manager of the Boston Bruins in 1972. He was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builder category in 1983.

Frank Udvari
One of the NHL's most durable referees, Udvari missed only two officiating assignments in 15 years. He presided over 718 NHL regular season contests and 70 Stanley Cup playoff games as well as over 200 matches in the American Hockey League where he also served as referee-in-chief. He was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Referee/Linesman category in 1973.
These are people who have spent their life in and around the game. Certainly a qualified group to consider greatness, in my opinion.

And, Makarov is not a strong candidate for the HOF in my opinion.

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