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Vladislav Tretiak

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11-09-2004, 03:50 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
It means nothing to you.

This is the hall of fame commitee...

These are people who have spent their life in and around the game. Certainly a qualified group to consider greatness, in my opinion.

And, Makarov is not a strong candidate for the HOF in my opinion.
I'll disagree with a number of people that have been recently admitted;

Gillies, Mullen, and Federko most of all.

I'd love to hear your reasoning on Makarov. Fetisov, Makarov and Krutov were the dominant players on those great Soviet teams of the 1980's.

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11-09-2004, 08:44 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'll disagree with a number of people that have been recently admitted;

Gillies, Mullen, and Federko most of all.

I'd love to hear your reasoning on Makarov. Fetisov, Makarov and Krutov were the dominant players on those great Soviet teams of the 1980's.
My opinion is always based on what I actually saw of the player. Fetisov was a heckuva player at both ends of the ice, a true hall of famer. Krutov got his chance in the NHL but literally ate himself out of the league.

Makarov had a fine career and deserves to be in the IIHF hall of fame (if he isn't there all ready). What I saw of him personally though, he didn't reach the level of domination against the best. That is not to knock him, there are alot of very good players not in the hall. I'm sure he has other supporters, I just don't rate him with the best I have seen play.

On the others you mentioned, Clark Gillies was a surprise selection for me. His team's success was obviously a big factor in what got him there. Federko was a borderline choice but he played in the shadows of the great centers of his era. I saw alot of Mullen so I am biased for him. He seemed to be able to raise the level of his game when it mattered most (i.e. he had great playoffs to help two different teams win their first cups).

A guy like Pete Mahovlich was one of my favorite players but he'll never make the hall. He was dominant but for a short period of time. The players who make it usually have a level of excellent play over several years.

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Old
11-09-2004, 09:22 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
My opinion is always based on what I actually saw of the player. Fetisov was a heckuva player at both ends of the ice, a true hall of famer. Krutov got his chance in the NHL but literally ate himself out of the league.

Makarov had a fine career and deserves to be in the IIHF hall of fame (if he isn't there all ready). What I saw of him personally though, he didn't reach the level of domination against the best. That is not to knock him, there are alot of very good players not in the hall. I'm sure he has other supporters, I just don't rate him with the best I have seen play.

On the others you mentioned, Clark Gillies was a surprise selection for me. His team's success was obviously a big factor in what got him there. Federko was a borderline choice but he played in the shadows of the great centers of his era. I saw alot of Mullen so I am biased for him. He seemed to be able to raise the level of his game when it mattered most (i.e. he had great playoffs to help two different teams win their first cups).

A guy like Pete Mahovlich was one of my favorite players but he'll never make the hall. He was dominant but for a short period of time. The players who make it usually have a level of excellent play over several years.
Mullen, Gillies and Federko where never dominant players.

Krutov and Makarov like Fetisov wouldn't be inducted for their play in the NHL, but what they did on the world stage.

If you have the ability to go back and watch games from the 1987 Canada Cup, i'd highly recomend it. IMO it's the best hockey that's ever been played, with the Soviets led by Fetisov, Makarov and Krutov extending Canada to the brink.

1987 Canada Cup Leading Scorers

Wayne Gretzky Canada 9 3 18 21
Mario Lemieux Canada 9 11 7 18
Sergei Makarov USSR 9 7 8 15
Vladimir Krutov USSR 9 7 7 14

All Star Team

G - Grant Fuhr, CAN
D - Ray Bourque, CAN
D - Viacheslav Fetisov, USSR
F - Wayne Gretzky, CAN
F - Mario Lemieux, CAN
F - Vladimir Krutov, USSR

1984 Canada Cup All Star Team

G - Vladimir Myshkin, USSR
D - Paul Coffey, Can
D - Rod Langway, USA
F - Wayne Gretzky, CAN
F - Sergei Makarov, USSR
F - John Tonelli, CAN

1981 Canada Cup Scoring Leaders

Wayne Gretzky Canada 7 5 7 12
Mike Bossy Canada 7 8 3 11
Bryan Trottier Canada 7 3 8 11
Guy Lafleur Canada 7 2 9 11
Alexei Kasatonov USSR 7 1 10 11
Gilbert Perreault Canada 4 3 6 9
Sergei Makarov USSR 7 3 6 9
Sergei Shepelev USSR 7 6 2 8
Vladimir Krutov USSR 7 4 4 8
Viacheslav Fetisov USSR 7 1 7 8

Sergei Makarov
http://www.russianrocket.de/Welcome/welcome.html

Lead the Soviet League in scoring 9 times
First team all-star at the Worlds 8 times

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11-09-2004, 09:42 PM
  #29
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I've seen all of the Canada Cups, World Cups, Olympics, several world championships and all of the exhibition NHL/Russia games since the late '60's.

As far as the KLM line went, it was Larionov that impressed me the most with his two way play. I believe he deserves and will make the hall.

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11-10-2004, 12:01 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Tretiak was a good goalie but he shouldn't be in the Hall or considered one of the all-time greats. He was unable to hold a commanding lead in the '72 series, giving up 13 goals on home ice in the final three games. He lost again to a bunch of teenagers in 1980. All those Olympic and world golds were won on uneven playing fields that were slanted heavily toward the Soviets. He obviously had his moments ('81 Canada Cup and '75 New Year's Eve game against Montreal) but his record against Canada's best was a losing one and there's no getting around that.

Go back and read, I have addressed all of these comments, he had the best save % in the summit series and he was NOT the one credited with the loss to the united states, and that was some of Canada's best players in 72 minus a few, on top of that his record against Canada, was one game under 0.500 (it could be 500 since I could not find the stats on the 1980 olympic round robin).

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11-10-2004, 07:55 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
I've seen all of the Canada Cups, World Cups, Olympics, several world championships and all of the exhibition NHL/Russia games since the late '60's.

As far as the KLM line went, it was Larionov that impressed me the most with his two way play. I believe he deserves and will make the hall.
Larionov certainly was the best of the bunch on the NHL, which I think had more to do with the fact that he adapted better to life in the West than Makarov and Krutov.

Krutov was the most one-dimensional of the three, he was just a goal scoring machine.

If you look at things such as number of 1st all-star teams made in the Soviet league, and World Championships, Larionov pales in comparison to Makarov.

4 1st team all-stars in the Soviet league
2 all-tourney teams at the Worlds.

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11-10-2004, 09:08 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Larionov certainly was the best of the bunch on the NHL, which I think had more to do with the fact that he adapted better to life in the West than Makarov and Krutov.

Krutov was the most one-dimensional of the three, he was just a goal scoring machine.

If you look at things such as number of 1st all-star teams made in the Soviet league, and World Championships, Larionov pales in comparison to Makarov.

4 1st team all-stars in the Soviet league
2 all-tourney teams at the Worlds.
What guys did in the Soviet league probably won't have a big impact on whether they make the HOF. The intl play will. But Larionov also had 4 1st team all-stars in the Soviet league.

The big difference between the two and what sways the committee is individual and team success in the playoffs. Larionov's career includes 3 Stanley Cups where he played significant roles.

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11-10-2004, 09:17 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
What guys did in the Soviet league probably won't have a big impact on whether they make the HOF. The intl play will. But Larionov also had 4 1st team all-stars in the Soviet league.

The big difference between the two and what sways the committee is individual and team success in the playoffs. Larionov's career includes 3 Stanley Cups where he played significant roles.
You can't just factor in Summit Series and Intl's play. That comes down to 2 weeks a year.

Yes, Larionov played on three Cup winning teams, and was a nice power play specialist, but in reality he was their 4th most important center.

I'm also not saying that Larionov shouldn't be inducted. IMO he's a borderline Hall of Famer, but was a better player than the Mullen's and Gillies of the world so if you're going by that he should get in.

However if I had to rank the Soviets from the famed Green unit that I'd want on my team for a season in their prime I'd go;

Fetisov/Makarov


Krutov

Larionov/Kasatonov (the most underrated of the bunch)


All 5 were truly world class players.

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Old
11-10-2004, 09:35 AM
  #34
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What about Helmut Balderis, widley consideredt the best Soviet Forward in the late 70's early 80's. Played 1/2 a season with the North Stars in 1988 and was 39 years old and wasnt any good.

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11-10-2004, 09:37 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
You can't just factor in Summit Series and Intl's play.
Did not say that. The entire career is what they look at.

In my opinion, there are even more deserving Soviets not in the Hall. i.e. Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Firsov.

This list was THN top Soviet players of all time, for what it's worth. Not sure what year it was compiled.

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11-10-2004, 09:42 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
Did not say that. The entire career is what they look at.

In my opinion, there are even more deserving Soviets not in the Hall. i.e. Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Firsov.

This list was THN top Soviet players of all time, for what it's worth. Not sure what year it was compiled.
Agree with that. IMO this upcoming year which has no great candidates of new NHL players for the HoF, they should induct Kharlamov, Makarov and Mikhailov.

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