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Old
03-04-2012, 08:44 AM
  #1
HCH
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Faceoffs

Our face-off stats are not good and last night was a good example but there is more to winning a face-off than leaving it all to the center. On Frattin's goal the puck was laying loose and the Toronto winger wanted it more than the Montreal defenseman.

Our wingers and defense are too passive on face-offs. They need to want the puck but it seems like they are always waiting for it to come to them. Of course, the centers could improve a lot, too but a little more effort now and then from everyone on the team could make a difference.

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03-04-2012, 09:00 AM
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hockeyfan2k11
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We've been bad on faceoffs for years. DD, Eller, Pleks all poor at faceoffs, but people seem to be more focussed on points around here.

This needs to be adressed...but it won't.

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03-04-2012, 09:04 AM
  #3
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Last time I checked, Noki was our best face-off guy with a win rate of 55%. Gustaud would be a good one if we replace Noki.

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03-04-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
We've been bad on faceoffs for years. DD, Eller, Pleks all poor at faceoffs, but people seem to be more focussed on points around here.

This needs to be adressed...but it won't.
DD is at 50% and he's over 50% career if I remember correctly. He's not poor on faceoffs, but anything to bash the guy.

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03-04-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
DD is at 50% and he's over 50% career if I remember correctly. He's not poor on faceoffs, but anything to bash the guy.
Your DD infatuation is ridiculous.

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03-04-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Your DD infatuation is ridiculous.
Hey, guess what? 50% isn't poor - maybe if there weren't such ridiculous facts posted, I wouldn't have to debunk them with relative ease.

All I'm doing is posting facts. If you get that hurt by the facts, maybe you shouldn't make stuff up in the first place.

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03-04-2012, 10:08 AM
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I have zero confidence in any of our ctrs taking late-game d-zone faceoffs...or any critical faceoffs. Honestly rather have White out there over anyone else.

Great point above about the rest of the team being too passive after the draw. DD at one point in the 3rd had a faceoff in our zone, it was a draw, gets run over by their ctr...and the team is standing still, watching it unfold.

One more pathetic aspect of our 'game' that clearly no-one in the org cares about.

Have a feeling that is Muller had been retained and promoted, this would be worked extensively throughout the org, including every minor-league level.

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03-04-2012, 10:15 AM
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hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by blueinmtl View Post
I have zero confidence in any of our ctrs taking late-game d-zone faceoffs...or any critical faceoffs. Honestly rather have White out there over anyone else.

Great point above about the rest of the team being too passive after the draw. DD at one point in the 3rd had a faceoff in our zone, it was a draw, gets run over by their ctr...and the team is standing still, watching it unfold.

One more pathetic aspect of our 'game' that clearly no-one in the org cares about.

Have a feeling that is Muller had been retained and promoted, this would be worked extensively throughout the org, including every minor-league level.
Some fans don't seem to care about it either. There's never any talk about how bad we are on faceoffs. I have complained about this several times. It's a big reason why we lose a good 30 seconds off our PP and a big reason why we get stuck in our own zone trying to chase the puck.

We don't have a single player who can win a faceoff in a big game. I hate how Pleks takes his faceoffs.

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03-04-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
DD is at 50% and he's over 50% career if I remember correctly. He's not poor on faceoffs, but anything to bash the guy.
The problem with a flat rate of 50% is not that it is good or great it is where the face offs are when they are won. If the majority of the face offs to make up the 50% success rate are in the neutral zone then the stat is skewed. Yes, a face off is a face off but there is no doubting a face off late in the game in our own zone or the oppositions zone is more important. Having someone or two that can win those types of face offs goes a long ways to puck possession and winning.

What the Habs are missing is a true face off guy in our own zone to win them the majority of the time. Someone like Malhotra who I believe if I heard right on CBC is at 70% in his own zone. That is where Vancouver uses him mostly.

The other part of that stat is that for the most part DD for example is really good at taking face offs on the PP which in most cases is in the other teams zone.

I am trying to find a site that does the breakdown according to zone but have yet to find one.

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03-04-2012, 10:34 AM
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Em Ancien
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Maybe if we played Noke more than 4 minutes a game

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03-04-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by HabsAtak View Post
The problem with a flat rate of 50% is not that it is good or great it is where the face offs are when they are won. If the majority of the face offs to make up the 50% success rate are in the neutral zone then the stat is skewed. Yes, a face off is a face off but there is no doubting a face off late in the game in our own zone or the oppositions zone is more important. Having someone or two that can win those types of face offs goes a long ways to puck possession and winning.

What the Habs are missing is a true face off guy in our own zone to win them the majority of the time. Someone like Malhotra who I believe if I heard right on CBC is at 70% in his own zone. That is where Vancouver uses him mostly.

The other part of that stat is that for the most part DD for example is really good at taking face offs on the PP which in most cases is in the other teams zone.

I am trying to find a site that does the breakdown according to zone but have yet to find one.
I agree that we lack an elite faceoff specialist. No doubt about it (except for Noke, but he doesn't seem like the type of player they want to give a decent amount of ice-time too).

Desharnais is all over the board. He's got more wins than losses on the PK in the defensive zone, but at ES he's got more losses.

He's basically 50% in the neutral zone, so that means he's basically 50% mixed between the def and off zone's as well.

We definitely need a faceoff specialist who can suit up for 10-15 minutes a game without hurting the team because we don't have an elite guy. Desharnais at 50% is our best regular center, which obviously isn't poor but there is no real advantage at 50% (he was also putrid to start the season around 25% - so that means he's been over 50% for the last 3/4).

Plekanec is sub 50% and last I checked, Eller was way below 50%. So we definitely need some help there if Noke isn't the answer.

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03-04-2012, 11:21 AM
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Yes we sure could use a faceoff specialist for critical situations. Who is the last one we had??

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03-04-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
Yes we sure could use a faceoff specialist for critical situations. Who is the last one we had??
Moore was good. Oops.

Halpern was...oh yeah.

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Old
03-04-2012, 11:30 AM
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=620186

"We found it is more important to decrease how many shots a team and its defense faces," said Schuckers.

The professor told the crowd of more than 300 that winning faceoffs doesn’t statistically drive how many goals a team scores over the course of a season. The mathematical result in this instance is that winning faceoffs doesn’t stand alone as a statistic that predicts scoring goals.


Why don't you see any thread complaining about face-off ?

Most of the time, the problem is'nt winning or losing playoff.

It's the winger/defenseman not covering his guys. Plain and simple.

You could win 65% of the faceoff ... but when you lose it, if the other 4 guys on the ice does not make their job...it won't change anything. Those other 4 guys are the real problem.

Yesterday, it was clearly the problem, not the face-off.

I'm not saying face-off are not important, just that when you're not ''elite at it'', it should not be a major issue.

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03-04-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I agree that we lack an elite faceoff specialist. No doubt about it (except for Noke, but he doesn't seem like the type of player they want to give a decent amount of ice-time too).

Desharnais is all over the board. He's got more wins than losses on the PK in the defensive zone, but at ES he's got more losses.

He's basically 50% in the neutral zone, so that means he's basically 50% mixed between the def and off zone's as well.

We definitely need a faceoff specialist who can suit up for 10-15 minutes a game without hurting the team because we don't have an elite guy. Desharnais at 50% is our best regular center, which obviously isn't poor but there is no real advantage at 50% (he was also putrid to start the season around 25% - so that means he's been over 50% for the last 3/4).

Plekanec is sub 50% and last I checked, Eller was way below 50%. So we definitely need some help there if Noke isn't the answer.
Plekanec is always around 50%. Some seasons he's just below 51%, some seasons he's just above 49%. Looks like Desharnais is going to be the same as he was 49.7% last season and 50.0% atm. Both seem to go on hot and cold streaks in faceoff %. Neither are good faceoff guys as those tend to be closer to 55% (ie. Koivu, Halpern, Moore). Eller needs some faceoff help for sure, although it isn't uncommon for centers his age to struggle. He has improved a bit though, was 42.4 last season and 45.7% this season. This is a teachable skill but it's good to have at least one guy who has mastered it.

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03-04-2012, 11:52 AM
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Maybe if we played Noke more than 4 minutes a game
Problem is that he isn't very good.

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03-04-2012, 12:06 PM
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Desharnais and Plekanec seem to be about the same level when it comes to faceoffs - both are streaky, not liabilities though they will have bad games.

Eller really needs to work on his FO ability. But that comes with experience.

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03-04-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProMath View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=620186

"We found it is more important to decrease how many shots a team and its defense faces," said Schuckers.

The professor told the crowd of more than 300 that winning faceoffs doesn’t statistically drive how many goals a team scores over the course of a season. The mathematical result in this instance is that winning faceoffs doesn’t stand alone as a statistic that predicts scoring goals.


Why don't you see any thread complaining about face-off ?

Most of the time, the problem is'nt winning or losing playoff.

It's the winger/defenseman not covering his guys. Plain and simple.

You could win 65% of the faceoff ... but when you lose it, if the other 4 guys on the ice does not make their job...it won't change anything. Those other 4 guys are the real problem.

Yesterday, it was clearly the problem, not the face-off.

I'm not saying face-off are not important, just that when you're not ''elite at it'', it should not be a major issue.
No, people don't look at faceoffs because it isn't as easy to find as goals or assists.

Note that the professor is being very precise in that faceoffs do not affect the number of goals a team scores, but not other variables such as zone time, scoring chances, and puck possession. Plus, this is a statistical argument, one of which probably is the result of regression analysis. Hockey is a sport in which there is an extremely fine line between winning and losing. Simply because you did not give up a goal after losing a faceoff does not mean that you have sacrificed zone time and wasted a shift defending when you could have generated a scoring chance.


And before you assume otherwise, I'm not ignorant of the subject matter of statistics; it is part and parcel of getting a economics degree.

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Old
03-04-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
No, people don't look at faceoffs because it isn't as easy to find as goals or assists.

Note that the professor is being very precise in that faceoffs do not affect the number of goals a team scores, but not other variables such as zone time, scoring chances, and puck possession. Plus, this is a statistical argument, one of which probably is the result of regression analysis. Hockey is a sport in which there is an extremely fine line between winning and losing. Simply because you did not give up a goal after losing a faceoff does not mean that you have sacrificed zone time and wasted a shift defending when you could have generated a scoring chance.


And before you assume otherwise, I'm not ignorant of the subject matter of statistics; it is part and parcel of getting a economics degree.

Did we talk before ? why would I assume you're ignorant ?... I'm just here to discuss..

Face-off are one click away on the NHL.com stats page...

I just wanted to say, I think there is more important thing to look at first, then face-off. Espacially when you're face-off % is around 50 (I think Habs % is around 47-48, Edit: 48.5%).

Each game the Habs lose ... someone come and say:

Damn we need team toughness !
Damn we suck at face-off !
Damn our goalie is so bad this years !!
Damn we only have one good forward line !!
Damn our Defense is bad !!

These may all be truth ... but some of them are more important then other. And personnally, I think face-off winning %, espacially this years, should be the least of our concerns.

If we were about to go in the playoff... at the TD... that would be something else.


Last edited by ProMath: 03-04-2012 at 01:09 PM.
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Old
03-04-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I agree that we lack an elite faceoff specialist. No doubt about it (except for Noke, but he doesn't seem like the type of player they want to give a decent amount of ice-time too).

Desharnais is all over the board. He's got more wins than losses on the PK in the defensive zone, but at ES he's got more losses.

He's basically 50% in the neutral zone, so that means he's basically 50% mixed between the def and off zone's as well.

We definitely need a faceoff specialist who can suit up for 10-15 minutes a game without hurting the team because we don't have an elite guy. Desharnais at 50% is our best regular center, which obviously isn't poor but there is no real advantage at 50% (he was also putrid to start the season around 25% - so that means he's been over 50% for the last 3/4).

Plekanec is sub 50% and last I checked, Eller was way below 50%. So we definitely need some help there if Noke isn't the answer.
As big a fan of Eller as I am, he needs to work on his faceoffs a ton over the summer. He seemed to be getting better at one point this season. Maybe it's the fact that he gets tougher matchups than others, who knows? But he's definitely gotta get better. Luckily, I think he's a kid with a good enough work ethic to get it done.

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03-04-2012, 03:29 PM
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Yes we sure could use a faceoff specialist for critical situations. Who is the last one we had??
Perreault was a ****ing boss.

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03-04-2012, 03:30 PM
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Yes we sure could use a faceoff specialist for critical situations. Who is the last one we had??
Noke? Halpern?

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Old
03-04-2012, 03:52 PM
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Bonk, Metropolit, Moore, Halpern, then Nokelainen.

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