I would love a line-up come playoff time with both Homer AND Cleary replaced. I don't think either player has much left to contribute and would prefer the speed and energy of Conner and skill of Gus come April.
You don't wait until the playoffs to do something like that. You'd want these guys to get some NHL ice time before throwing them to the lions. Gus needs to get his strength up a bit too. He'll get killed out there in the playoffs if you just were to toss him in as you suggest.
You don't wait until the playoffs to do something like that. You'd want these guys to get some NHL ice time before throwing them to the lions. Gus needs to get his strength up a bit too. He'll get killed out there in the playoffs if you just were to toss him in as you suggest.
They could always get the Helm/Abdelkader treatment: play a few games to finish out the regular season and here you go - here's the NHL playoffs.
You don't wait until the playoffs to do something like that. You'd want these guys to get some NHL ice time before throwing them to the lions. Gus needs to get his strength up a bit too. He'll get killed out there in the playoffs if you just were to toss him in as you suggest.
Is that really that big of a concern? I think Gus is smart and skilled enough to play in the NHL at his current size. Giroux and Eberle are having fantastic seasons at 5'11 172 lbs, and 5'11 184 lbs, and both have managed to stay pretty healthy.
I thought he worked well on the third line up until he got hurt. His injury ending being a turning point for both him and Miller...he's obviously done well in that role since.
Last year was around Cleary's ceiling...50 points max. He's probably closer to 35-40 on a typical year. Barring a breakout year, he's probably done with this team after deal ends next year.
Look, I know Cleary had 26 goals last year but he has been horrific this season. Like Fugu said, uncharactaristic give aways and he has not been as good defensively as in the past.
: I am going to hate myself for doing this but I actually agree with some of what Killbuttman said (Not the he sucks part) he did score 10 of his 26 goals in one month and he is costing us a boat load of cap space for a 3rd or 4th line player that is -9 and has 1 goal in the past 20 games.
We have plenty of prospects in the system and if we can play for 2 - 3 weeks without Datsyuk, a week or so without Lidstrom and 6 weeks or so without Ericsson why can't we play 40+ games without Cleary??? Sit him down, let him have his surgery and let's move on. I do not understand why he is put in the line up night in and night out when he is obviously injured and cannot perform at 100%
Put him on LTIR and bring up Andersson, Tatar or Nyquist and get them some experience
Cleary has great hockey sense? The only reason he's playing with Helm on the 3rd line is because Cleary is too stupid hockey wise to play effectively with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Babcock would LOVE to have Cleary play with D or Z but he has consistently demonstrated he can't think the game at their level and be effective.
I posted this back on Jan 19th in a Mursak thread.
As stated, Cleary has always become less effective the higher up the lines he's slotted. Add to the fact that he is constantly battling injuries and his effectiveness is really limited.
That all stems from another concern I have with Cleary, and I also share with Franzen to some extent, is that he proved his effectiveness and worth to the Wings by fighting for a roster spot and becoming a physical grinder. Not because of his offense. Then, he started to contribute more offensively. At the point he was doing both ('08) was when he was most valuable to the team. Last year and this year he seems to have focused more on the offense and the "big body, grinder" that Babcock likes to refer to has disappeared. Now, if that is because he forgot why he is most valuable to the Wings or he is too injured to play that way, I don't know.
Bottom line is that the Wings have a constant need for people to play big and gritty and wear on the other team. That's why Cleary, Franzen, Bert, Abdelkader, Helm and Miller are in the lineup: to assume the roles of big-bodied, gritty, defensively sound players. When they fulfill that role they are most valuable to the Wings, their offense is a very appreciated, but extra bonus. Whenever they stray from the physical part of the game and contribute the occasional, and VERY streaky, offense they become less valuable, and to some extent a liabililty to the Wings.
Bottom line is that the Wings have a constant need for people to play big and gritty and wear on the other team. That's why Cleary, Franzen, Bert, Abdelkader, Helm and Miller are in the lineup: to assume the roles of big-bodied, gritty, defensively sound players. When they fulfill that role they are most valuable to the Wings, their offense is a very appreciated, but extra bonus. Whenever they stray from the physical part of the game and contribute the occasional, and VERY streaky, offense they become less valuable, and to some extent a liabililty to the Wings.
This harkens a bit back to Leino's days here. Babs wants one of these types of players on each line. The guys who can and are willing to crash and bang every day will have jobs. It does shorten the shelf life though on the ones who just aren't built for it, and I'm afraid Cleary may be one of those guys. That said, he's not useless. He's better than most guys in the bottom six in a number of areas. He's done well with Helmer before too. I think if he cannot keep up the grinding role and his production doesn't improve, he'd have to take less money but the Wings would probably want to keep him.
This harkens a bit back to Leino's days here. Babs wants one of these types of players on each line. The guys who can and are willing to crash and bang every day will have jobs. It does shorten the shelf life though on the ones who just aren't built for it, and I'm afraid Cleary may be one of those guys. That said, he's not useless. He's better than most guys in the bottom six in a number of areas. He's done well with Helmer before too. I think if he cannot keep up the grinding role and his production doesn't improve, he'd have to take less money but the Wings would probably want to keep him.
If Cleary is slotted into a bottom 6 defensive, grinder role and is payed accordingly that's fine with me. If he is paid as a top 6 and the coaches consistently try to jam him into that role, I don't like it. He doesn't have the hockey sense or skill to play above that. For as much as people bemoan Homer dragging down Datsyuk and Z, Cleary is even worse. Cleary is better defensively, of course, but watching him skate the puck into the corners and bury the puck in there while Datsyuk and Z circle in scoring areas is frustrating and painful.
If Cleary is slotted into a bottom 6 defensive, grinder role and is payed accordingly that's fine with me. If he is paid as a top 6 and the coaches consistently try to jam him into that role, I don't like it. He doesn't have the hockey sense or skill to play above that. For as much as people bemoan Homer dragging down Datsyuk and Z, Cleary is even worse. Cleary is better defensively, of course, but watching him skate the puck into the corners and bury the puck in there while Datsyuk and Z circle in scoring areas is frustrating and painful.
Bottom line is that the Wings have a constant need for people to play big and gritty and wear on the other team. That's why Cleary, Franzen, Bert, Abdelkader, Helm and Miller are in the lineup: to assume the roles of big-bodied, gritty, defensively sound players. When they fulfill that role they are most valuable to the Wings, their offense is a very appreciated, but extra bonus.
And who is going to be putting puck in the net? You know, scoring goals? Other than Dats and Hudler (who is also not the model of consistency).
And who is going to be putting puck in the net? You know, scoring goals? Other than Dats and Hudler (who is also not the model of consistency).
I'm not saying their goal scoring isn't needed, of course it is. But, their physical contributions to the team are more important.
When looking at the Wings lineup, you point to Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Flip, Hudler, Holmstrom as the forwards to power the goal-scoring. Franzen, being labeled the "Power Forward" that the coaching staff and Holland call him, is probably the only forward penciled in to provide both goals and physical play. All of the other forwards are there to provide physical play, be defensively solid and make the game harder for the opposition while provding the occasional, "depth" goal-scoring.
And yes, I do see a problem with guys like Bert, Cleary, Franzen, Abdelkader, Helm and Miller abandoning their physical play (not that they all are or will) in an attempt to provide more offense. Their physical play is just as important to the success of this team, especially come playoff time.
I really think you are missing the point of my argument. Of course a team can not win games without scoring goals. However, if playing to their ability, the Wings have more than enough players that can generate goals. They don't have an over abundance of players that can play big and grind. Cleary is one of those guys that is counted on to play big and grind. If he's not doing that, he's not fulfilling his primary role.
Clearly also not on the ice but likely a maintenance day as he’s been bothered by sore knee.
He's always injured though. So while it's nice to say that that's the reason why he isn't as good as he was last year or two years ago, it isn't going to change. Cleary's entire job is to be good on the forecheck, skate hard and go to the net. If he can't do that effectively he'll become less and less important.
He's always injured though. So while it's nice to say that that's the reason why he isn't as good as he was last year or two years ago, it isn't going to change. Cleary's entire job is to be good on the forecheck, skate hard and go to the net. If he can't do that effectively he'll become less and less important.
I remember golfing with Babcock 2 years ago at the Wings' tournament up in Traverse City & the one thing that stuck in mind was that he said he expected Cleary (who was 32 at the time) to hit 70 points in the upcoming season and what did Clearly do? Have a mediocre one season. 2010-2011 (68 GP, 26 Goals, 20 assists, 46 points) Just found it funny that he said that.
I really think you are missing the point of my argument. Of course a team can not win games without scoring goals. However, if playing to their ability, the Wings have more than enough players that can generate goals.
You see, I think they actually DON'T. When the game is on the line, there is nobody other than Datsyuk we can rely on to score. We have NO other gamebreakers (although I like the way Z is looking lately).
You see, I think they actually DON'T. When the game is on the line, there is nobody other than Datsyuk we can rely on to score. We have NO other gamebreakers (although I like the way Z is looking lately).
Not many teams have more than 2 or 3 of those types of guys. With the game on the line in the playoffs, I'd look more towards Z and Franzen than Datsyuk if we want to look at history. Cleary as well, he's scored some huge goals in his career.
The playoffs are a different beast, gauging what players do in the playoffs from their regular seasons is hardly ever right.
He's always injured though. So while it's nice to say that that's the reason why he isn't as good as he was last year or two years ago, it isn't going to change. Cleary's entire job is to be good on the forecheck, skate hard and go to the net. If he can't do that effectively he'll become less and less important.
My post didn't mean to imply anything other than to point out he's injured-- again. I also stated earlier that the game Babs wants him to play may not be one his body can handle any longer. It's too bad too, because he's a real warrior. You can see it in his face though. He doesn't have that same determination. He may do what Rafalski did and just say he's done.
I would love a line-up come playoff time with both Homer AND Cleary replaced. I don't think either player has much left to contribute and would prefer the speed and energy of Conner and skill of Gus come April.
I wouldn't mind seeing Homer in.
Last playoffs he was decent. Just think of his series vs. the Sharks.
: I am going to hate myself for doing this but I actually agree with some of what Killbuttman said (Not the he sucks part) he did score 10 of his 26 goals in one month and he is costing us a boat load of cap space for a 3rd or 4th line player that is -9 and has 1 goal in the past 20 games.
