I don't know if this has been mentioned. But he's playing through knee pain.
I thought this has been taken care of. But apparently not. Sit him! I don't know. He is probably still more effective than a rookie in the AHL atm, but what choices do they have? The man has a bum knee. With the way he plays (like Zetterberg...plays along the boards)...that's not good. Get a knee brace? Borrow Rafalski's!
I don't know if this has been mentioned. But he's playing through knee pain.
I thought this has been taken care of. But apparently not. Sit him! I don't know. He is probably still more effective than a rookie in the AHL atm, but what choices do they have? The man has a bum knee. With the way he plays (like Zetterberg...plays along the boards)...that's not good. Get a knee brace? Borrow Rafalski's!
BLAH
Might be more of an option if the rest of our injury list wasn't so long.
Might be more of an option if the rest of our injury list wasn't so long.
That's true. Although the idea of having Nyquist or Tatar up here... Cleary is probably still the better choice. I can see Nyquist and Tatar being bumped off the puck pretty easy.
At least Cleary can get the puck deep and can the puck to the net...the shots are weak, but he' still creating.
Ugh. I'm trying to think. Lidstroms injury can take 3 more days to heal or 3 more months. Datsyuk will be back in about 4-5 games. Kindl? I miss big E already. He made his dumb plays... He's needed back there. Hmm.
Trying to find a perfect time to see if the Wings can sit Cleary and Zetterberg, and possibly Quincey for the duration of the regular season so they are rested for the playoffs. These three are playing injured right now...But with the things are looking right now...they may be going into the playoffs banged up. that's not good.
Heh... yeah, you only set the parameters of what he needed to do to earn his deal at sub 2 equivalently with what you set for Cleary and Hudler, who made almost a mil more.
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That said, I came back to say, okay, now that we've established that Fil and Cleary earned their paychecks for 20-ish G, 40 pts.....
-buzzer-
You called Fil a 1.5 mil player for his first two years, Fugu. You don't get to just ignore that. And Fil produced 23 goals and 52 assists in 135 games despite not getting really any PP IT in 2009 due to Hossa bumping almost everybody one slot down the depth chart.
And you're still ignoring position and defense.
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What one could have argued is that KH paid one guy what his going rate was at the time of the signing, but that the RFA was paid on potential.
'One' could argue that, of course, but 'one' would be making a moderately stupid argument.
On the day both guys were signed, Fil was the better player. That he has now gone on to be the substantially better player is immaterial to your fairly laughable comments about Fil in the first two years of his deal.
29 goals, 45 assists (24 and 37 non-PP), 138 games.
That level of production is worth 2.8 mil in your opinion.
23 goals, 52 assists (21 and 42 non-PP), 135 games.
That level of production denotes a player who is only worth 1.5 mil, in your opinion.
And, oh by the way, the second guy plays center, is good at faceoffs, and is better defensively.
Care to connect those dots?
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No one is squirming.
Not well, at any rate.
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What's Filppula's value using that same hindsight of yours, HD? Or Hudler's?
What about Zetterberg?
I don't need hindsight because my foresight was better. I was of the opinion Fil was worth 3 mil from day one. My concerns were A) I didn't know if he'd ever be worth more than three, so I didn't see a ton of upside in the deal and B) I thought Holland could have maybe gotten Fil for less had he not overpaid Cleary by the 250-500K I thought he did at the time. They were generally comparable players although Fil was better, so the argument I made at the time was that if Cleary signed first whatever he got was the absolute least Fil could get.
As far as Hudler goes, I think I'm pretty firmly on record saying that I think he's been overpaid substantially on this deal. He's a ~2 mil player.
As far as Zetterberg goes, I loved the deal in terms of cap hit and distrusted it tremendously in terms of long-term value. Pre contract I was of the opinion that Holland shouldn't go out more than 5 or 6 years on Z even if it meant eating a bigger cap number. At the time it was because I distrusted Z's health. In hindsight, I refer you to the thread where I discuss Z's trending production.
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And it's really a low blow to think a GM can predict who will or won't play an 82 game season. That's why it's fair to use 'rates of scoring' not your effort to bamboozle the issue.
A) It doesn't look like you properly grasped what I did, Fugu. I included both his 82 game rate and his actual averaged production. In other words, what he could do in a prorated situation were he to play 82 games in a year, and then what he actually did since he rarely if ever came particularly close to playing 82 games in a year.
B) I think you're being a little disingenuous here with regards to what a GM could or could not predict with regards to player health. Cleary has played more than 70 games 4 times in his NHL career. In his Detroit career prior to his deal Cleary averaged a smidge over 70 games a year. In his Detroit career since his deal Cleary has averaged a smidge over 70 games a year, and this presumes he won't miss another game the rest of this season, which isn't what I would call a terribly sure thing.
So, I think one could be fairly well aware Cleary shouldn't have been expected to play much more than, oh, 70 games in a typical NHL season. Even better, Cleary's propensity for consistently missing time was actually something I included in my consideration regarding what he should be paid.
Long story short, you don't appear to be using consistent standards in your personal valuation of player contracts.
Heh... yeah, you only set the parameters of what he needed to do to earn his deal at sub 2 equivalently with what you set for Cleary and Hudler, who made almost a mil more.
Sometimes you twist the words around so much, that none of it makes sense.
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You called Fil a 1.5 mil player for his first two years, Fugu. You don't get to just ignore that. And Fil produced 23 goals and 52 assists in 135 games despite not getting really any PP IT in 2009 due to Hossa bumping almost everybody one slot down the depth chart.
0.17 goal scoring rate and 50% below his target ceiling (60 pts) for those years makes him worth as much as what Homer and Bert got paid. He made $2 and $2.5 MM respectively for those first two years. The team carried a cap hit of $3 MM.
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And you're still ignoring position and defense.
Draper was a center who played defense too. Did that make him worth $3 MM?
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'One' could argue that, of course, but 'one' would be making a moderately stupid argument.
On the day both guys were signed, Fil was the better player. That he has now gone on to be the substantially better player is immaterial to your fairly laughable comments about Fil in the first two years of his deal.
Well, Cleary was re-signed a year prior to Filppula, and at that time, he was the better player. Fil projected to be a better player, but that was four years before today's argument. In those four years:
Side by side (Fil v Cleary) G/A:
19/17 v 20/20
12/28 v 20/22
11/24 v 14/26
16/23 v 26/20
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I don't need hindsight because my foresight was better. I was of the opinion Fil was worth 3 mil from day one.
12 G and 28 A is worth $3 MM. Okay. What's 26 G and 20 A worth?
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My concerns were A) I didn't know if he'd ever be worth more than three, so I didn't see a ton of upside in the deal and B) I thought Holland could have maybe gotten Fil for less had he not overpaid Cleary by the 250-500K I thought he did at the time. They were generally comparable players although Fil was better, so the argument I made at the time was that if Cleary signed first whatever he got was the absolute least Fil could get.
I agree that I also didn't know IF he'd ever be worth more than $3 MM. It's taken 3 full years and now into his fourth year of that contract to say if this year is what he is, then yes. Although your 200 games argument 'What you see is what you get" without changing teams applies here too.
Maybe we should compromise and say both were overpaid for 3 yrs, especially if you consider the production from your next tier of players.
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As far as Hudler goes, I think I'm pretty firmly on record saying that I think he's been overpaid substantially on this deal. He's a ~2 mil player.
It was an arbitration award the Wings decided to accept. I think the wiser thing to do would have been to deal him for whatever spare parts they could get back then and use the nearly $3 MM of cap space to upgrade elsewhere.
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As far as Zetterberg goes, I loved the deal in terms of cap hit and distrusted it tremendously in terms of long-term value. Pre contract I was of the opinion that Holland shouldn't go out more than 5 or 6 years on Z even if it meant eating a bigger cap number. At the time it was because I distrusted Z's health. In hindsight, I refer you to the thread where I discuss Z's trending production.
I don't think we disagreed on any aspect of Z's contract. I went further to argue that those who called this a hometown discount were drinking food-colored water. There was not discount. Just Holland adding cap massaging years and Z getting full market value, and then some bonus years where he would be vastly overpaid given his production. I felt 5-7 was palatable at the $6-7 MM range. Instead, we have 8 yrs at $7.5 MM or higher, 3 of those at $7.75!
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B) I think you're being a little disingenuous here with regards to what a GM could or could not predict with regards to player health. Cleary has played more than 70 games 4 times in his NHL career. In his Detroit career prior to his deal Cleary averaged a smidge over 70 games a year. In his Detroit career since his deal Cleary has averaged a smidge over 70 games a year, and this presumes he won't miss another game the rest of this season, which isn't what I would call a terribly sure thing.
No, not at all. Cleary, Fil, Homer, and Z have missed significant numbers of games. You can't just gripe about him in a discussion that includes all the others.
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So, I think one could be fairly well aware Cleary shouldn't have been expected to play much more than, oh, 70 games in a typical NHL season. Even better, Cleary's propensity for consistently missing time was actually something I included in my consideration regarding what he should be paid.
But only for Cleary, apparently.
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Long story short, you don't appear to be using consistent standards in your personal valuation of player contracts.
I think you lose track at times of what I do argue. This isn't the first time you've claimed I made some declarative/absolute statement only to be shown the original thread where I didn't quite say what you remembered.
Sometimes you twist the words around so much, that none of it makes sense.
While I agree that it sometimes doesn't make sense, I apply less fault for that to what I say and rather more to what I've read.
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0.17 goal scoring rate and 50% below his target ceiling (60 pts) for those years makes him worth as much as what Homer and Bert got paid. He made $2 and $2.5 MM respectively for those first two years. The team carried a cap hit of $3 MM.
You're dodging again. You appear to believe Cleary earned his deal. You called Fil a 1.5 million dollar player. There was a razor thin difference between the two players.
You aren't connecting the dots.
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Draper was a center who played defense too. Did that make him worth $3 MM?
Don't be ridiculous, Fugu. Just because someone plays center doesn't entitle them to 3 mil, and making that sort of casually bizarre assertion really doesn't have any relevance.
In a comparison between a center and a non center, however, I think it's pretty obvious that the center is playing the harder position. So when you roll up the incredible similarlities in production between Cleary and Fil and then add in that Fil plays center, it becomes increasingly hard to try and create a rational case that Fil only merited 1.5 mil over the first two years of his deal while Cleary merited 2.8.
As, it appears, you are discovering.
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Well, Cleary was re-signed a year prior to Filppula, and at that time, he was the better player.
Good lord, Fugu. You're butchering this all over the place. A)They signed their deals the same offseason. Fil's was 5 years and Cleary's was 5 years. B) Obviously he wasn't because they went on be pretty much identically productive for the next two years.
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Side by side (Fil v Cleary) G/A:
19/17 v 20/20
12/28 v 20/22
11/24 v 14/26
16/23 v 26/20
12 G and 28 A is worth $3 MM. Okay. What's 26 G and 20 A worth?
Way to cherry pick Cleary's best year there, Fugu!
Obviously, if Cleary was putting up 26 goals a year I'd have absolutely no problem with his contract. The slight problem, of course, is that Cleary isn't putting up 26 goals a year. A somewhat greater problem is that he isn't even getting particularly close. 26 goals? Hey, I like! 14, 15, and a pace for 15 this year?
Uh oh. That doesn't look like 26 to me. That looks like less.
The next problem is that you're saying a guy put up 23 goals, 52 assists (21 and 42 non-PP) in 135 games was only worth 1.5 mil a year, while a guy who put up 29 goals, 45 assists (24 and 37 non-PP) in 138 games was worth 2.8 mil a year.
And ignoring position. And ignoring defense.
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I agree that I also didn't know IF he'd ever be worth more than $3 MM. It's taken 3 full years and now into his fourth year of that contract to say if this year is what he is, then yes.
And here's another instance of you not being consistent. Cleary put up 14 and 26, 15 and 19, 26 and 20, and is on 'pace' for 15 and 24 and you don't have a problem with his contract.
Fil's on 'pace for 26 and 40 and you think he's just now earning 200k more?
These last four years Fil has had 60 goals and 108 assists in 272 games.
These last four years Cleary has had 66 goals and 83 assists in 268 games.
Fil hasn't been earning his deal until this year, Cleary's been earning his. Heh.
And, again, ignoring position (advantage Fil) and ignoring defense (advantage Fil).
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Although your 200 games argument 'What you see is what you get" without changing teams applies here too.
I agree. that's why I'm well below what most other people are 'offering' Fil in a contract here.
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Maybe we should compromise and say both were overpaid for 3 yrs, especially if you consider the production from your next tier of players.
Nah. Cleary was overpaid from day 1 by 250-500k. He is now overpaid by about a mil. Fil was fairly paid through years 1-4 and is now underpaid by about a mil now.
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It was an arbitration award the Wings decided to accept. I think the wiser thing to do would have been to deal him for whatever spare parts they could get back then and use the nearly $3 MM of cap space to upgrade elsewhere.
Yep. My line at the time was 'would you rather have 5.7 million dollars in cap space, or Hudler and Cleary'? I went with the cap space and I think that's been about as good a call as possible.
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No, not at all. Cleary, Fil, Homer, and Z have missed significant numbers of games. You can't just gripe about him in a discussion that includes all the others.
What made you think I was?
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But only for Cleary, apparently.
!
Was there an example you had in mind where this make-believe thing you've conjured up actually occurred?
You tried to make the case that a GM shouldn't be expected to know who would and would not be healthy. I said that, uh, yeah he should with certain types of players. Cleary being one of these kinds of players.
You're now frantically trying to spin that I meant only Cleary, but that doesn't even pass a dead guys laugh test.
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I think you lose track at times of what I do argue.
Since your standards shift so much between players you like and ones you don't, it's an easier mistake to make than you might otherwise believe.
Man. I'm just going to respond to a couple things that stand out because my keyboard will revolt again.
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD
You're dodging again. You appear to believe Cleary earned his deal. You called Fil a 1.5 million dollar player. There was a razor thin difference between the two players.
You aren't connecting the dots.
...
Don't be ridiculous, Fugu. Just because someone plays center doesn't entitle them to 3 mil, and making that sort of casually bizarre assertion really doesn't have any relevance.
You tried to make a point about position and defense. You set yourself up. Not my fault if you walked right into that one.
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In a comparison between a center and a non center, however, I think it's pretty obvious that the center is playing the harder position. So when you roll up the incredible similarlities in production between Cleary and Fil and then add in that Fil plays center, it becomes increasingly hard to try and create a rational case that Fil only merited 1.5 mil over the first two years of his deal while Cleary merited 2.8.
Sure, but in terms of intangibles, Cleary was one of the leaders on the ice. Filppula was a passenger. THIS year, and for the first time since the Fil debates started, he's carrying the team some nights. That's a first.
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Good lord, Fugu. You're butchering this all over the place. A)They signed their deals the same offseason. Fil's was 5 years and Cleary's was 5 years. B) Obviously he wasn't because they went on be pretty much identically productive for the next two years.
Way to cherry pick Cleary's best year there, Fugu!
A first. I can say you're right. I did have Cleary signing a year ahead of Fil.
No fruit picking by me. I just took their last four years.
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Obviously, if Cleary was putting up 26 goals a year I'd have absolutely no problem with his contract. The slight problem, of course, is that Cleary isn't putting up 26 goals a year. A somewhat greater problem is that he isn't even getting particularly close. 26 goals? Hey, I like! 14, 15, and a pace for 15 this year?
I have no idea what you're saying then. You said their production over the last four years was separated by a razor thin line, but you have a slight problem with Fil making $500K more than Cleary?
How do --> you <-- justify 50-70% more pay for the same production (which would be Cleary at $2MM per your estimates)?
As for the rest of it, you're ignoring 4 consecutive years of a lack of significant production (that separates him from the next six forwards) for Fil while harping on my comment that Fil was only worth $1.5 MM. You then say you felt Fil was worth $3 MM when he signed his contract 3 yrs ago, while berating Cleary for his $2.8 MM cap hit. What. The. ****.
IF.... if ..... if...... you're going to say Fil's last three years were worth that money, then you cannot begrudge Cleary's value.
You tried to make a point about position and defense. You set yourself up. Not my fault if you walked right into that one.
Walked into what, exactly? My point is that playing center and being good defensively are value-adding characteristics, especially when compared to guys who don't play center and aren't as good defensively ... which you then tried to ludicrously wrench around into some bizarre assumption that anyone who plays good defense at center should make 3 mil when you laughably said "Draper was a center who played defense too. Did that make him worth $3 MM?".
I mean, seriously, if you're going to go out and make a point of launching a bizarrely inaccurate misrepresentation precisely how am I supposed to not 'walk into it'? As soon as someone devises the sentence structure it's impossible for one to blow out of proportion when one is trying to distract from the issue they should patent it and start a business.
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Sure, but in terms of intangibles, Cleary was one of the leaders on the ice. Filppula was a passenger. THIS year, and for the first time since the Fil debates started, he's carrying the team some nights. That's a first.
Of course, it was Cleary's 'intangibles'.
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A first. I can say you're right. I did have Cleary signing a year ahead of Fil.
No fruit picking by me. I just took their last four years.
Oh, I'm sure at some point you took their first four years, but were you taking their first four years when you said this:
"12 G and 28 A is worth $3 MM. Okay. What's 26 G and 20 A worth?"
Of course not. You were cherry picking Cleary's best (and career, by the way) year and one of Fil's lesser performances and then trying to index back whether or not either earned his contract based on what he did in that one season.
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I have no idea what you're saying then. You said their production over the last four years was separated by a razor thin line, but you have a slight problem with Fil making $500K more than Cleary?
A) I think your characterization of Fil as a 1.5 mil player and Cleary as a 2.8 million dollar player over the period of time when Fil had 23 goals, 52 assists (21 and 42 non-PP) in 135 games and Cleary had 29 goals, 45 assists (24 and 37 non-PP) in 138 games is absurd.
B) On the day the deals were signed I thought Fil was paid fairly (but with little upside in the deal) and that Cleary was overpaid by 250-500k. Obviously, this means I thought Fil was a 3 mil player and Cleary was a 2.3-2.5 mil player. The difference in those values were in part position based (Fil played center and Cleary did not), defense based (Fil was better), age based (Fil was younger with less inherent risk of decline) and production based (there was little to separate what I perceived to be the pairs expected production levels).
C) As we enter the final two years of the deals and Fil appears to be improving somewhat (although this may be illusory) and Cleary is declining noticeably (this is not), I think the gap in earned wage has widened somewhat. Recently. As in, this year.
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How do --> you <-- justify 50-70% more pay for the same production (which would be Cleary at $2MM per your estimates)?
A) I am perplexed by your math.
B) I am perplexed by what appears to be an inconsistently applied standard. For instance, would you care to make a similar argument regarding Cleary's production vs Miller or Helm or Abdelkader?
C) I am not entirely sure, given my concerns about your math, who exactly you are talking about.
Assuming the answer to C is Fil and Cleary, I think I've addressed the salient points above.
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As for the rest of it, you're ignoring 4 consecutive years of a lack of significant production (that separates him from the next six forwards) for Fil while harping on my comment that Fil was only worth $1.5 MM. You then say you felt Fil was worth $3 MM when he signed his contract 3 yrs ago, while berating Cleary for his $2.8 MM cap hit. What. The. ****.
'Berating'?
I think Cleary was overpaid by 250-500k with regards to compensation, and by a year with regards to term. I said this shortly after the deal was signed. I don't think that qualifies as 'berating' the Cleary deal... but c'est la vie. Mayhap standards are different.
Any 'beration' (tm) that is happening here is, at most, centered around you calling Fil a 1.5 player while defending Cleary as a 2.8 player when both guys were at best equivalent and much more likely where Fil was better, overall, than Cleary.
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IF.... if ..... if...... you're going to say Fil's last three years were worth that money, then you cannot begrudge Cleary's value.
You called Fil a 1.5 mil player. That was ridiculously inaccurate.
I think playing center and being better defensively are worth more than the 200k that separated the two, cap wise. As I have repeatedly demonstrated to you, their offensive production was insufficient to merit any real compensation spread, and I've even given you the pass of not rolling up Cleary's superior linemates and types of IT over that time frame.
This is why I think the more accurate spread in value between the two is around 500-700k and not 200k. Given that I feel Fil is fairly compensated at 3, this obviously implies that I believe Cleary would have been fairly compensated at 2.3-2.5 instead of 2.8, and that number is completely consistent with my anticipated value of Cleary at the time, as well as subsequent expectations of performance elsewhere on the roster.
That was, sadly, before this year. Cleary's slipped enough where I now question his even being worth 2.3-.2.5 moving forward. He may be a 1.8-2 mil player now considering it's plausible he's inferior to Bert and Bert's signed for 2 mil.
Yes yes, there I go 'berating' that deal again. I can't help myself.
Four years after it was signed, you finally find some basis for berating one deal, while four years after the other one was signed, you find foolproof support for the other one.
I agree with you, miller or abby should move up and take over cleary and see what happends i am sick of cleary and bert. They are playing invincible not only that i dont think they are trying at all.
Personally, I'd like a few more Wings to play invincibly
Four years after it was signed, you finally find some basis for berating one deal,
I said the Cleary deal was an overpay from day one, and it was from day one. Of the four seasons so far he's had one that was above expectations for a 2.8 mil player, and the other three were beneath that level. He was a low 2's guy for the first two years, a 3ish guy in year three, and he's a mid 1's guy this year.
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while four years after the other one was signed, you find foolproof support for the other one.
Again, you are attempting to pretend I wasn't fully in support of the deal from day one, which I was.
Sorry to bring this back up but I have been thinking......
What in the heck is Babcocks reasoning to keep playing this guy, he is -1 and has scored 3 goals in his last 31 games (or all of 2012)
He was on the ice again last night when NYR scored the GWG, he is terrible defensively and is a waste of space on the offensive side of the puck.
If he is not at 100% (as it has been stated) why do we not put him on LTIR, let him rest for the remainder of the season and bring up Tatar or Andersson or leave Nyquist up here permanently.
I have never been this frustrated with Babcock before!
Sorry to bring this back up but I have been thinking......
What in the heck is Babcocks reasoning to keep playing this guy, he is -1 and has scored 3 goals in his last 31 games (or all of 2012)
He was on the ice again last night when NYR scored the GWG, he is terrible defensively and is a waste of space on the offensive side of the puck.
If he is not at 100% (as it has been stated) why do we not put him on LTIR, let him rest for the remainder of the season and bring up Tatar or Andersson or leave Nyquist up here permanently.
I have never been this frustrated with Babcock before!
You have to work with what you have. What is he going to do (I'm sure it's not so simple as: Go sit and have surgery while we call up a bunch of rookies, eh)? Nobody in the AHL is ready. If anybody is NHL ready it's Nyquist, and he barely makes the cut as it is (knocked off the puck just by looking at him). Tatar would be next, he's about 1 more year out. Andersson still needs work too.
At least Cleary can get it down the ice, he's hard to get the puck from (compared to the AHLers Babcock would be forced to bring up). Also, contrary to popular belief, more AHL players will not make this team better, it will make it worse.
The man does have a bum knee, but he still forechecks well. His offense has gone out the window...Let's hope his clutchness kicks in in the playoffs.
At least Cleary can get it down the ice, he's hard to get the puck from .
See this is where we disagree. If you have noticed lately he cannot get it down the ice. He is losing all the battles along the boards and is coughing up the puck in the offensive zone and then not being able to cover back (which incidentally, is how NY scored the GWG last night)
In this circumstance I would just much rather see a kid that would give 100% effort rather than Cleary drudging around like he just can't go
See this is where we disagree. If you have noticed lately he cannot get it down the ice. He is losing all the battles along the boards and is coughing up the puck in the offensive zone and then not being able to cover back (which incidentally, is how NY scored the GWG last night)
In this circumstance I would just much rather see a kid that would give 100% effort rather than Cleary drudging around like he just can't go
I noticed yesterday that Cleary at LEAST got the puck behind the net and kept there long enough to get help.
Can a rookie get there? I say no. A rookie loses the puck at the blue line, or worse, in the neutral zone.
Sure Cleary isn't what he used to be, it's his knee. But the guy doesn't lose the puck in the neutral zone, nor does he turn it over at the blue line (hardly). He takes it along the boards and takes it behind the net at the very least, or puts up a low percentage shot. Hey, it's a shot. Can't complain. More than what Mursak (and Emmerton) is doing, you know, rookies...more of those kids you want to bring up.
Also, just because he was on the ice for that goal doesn't make it his fault. They were in position...Callahan took a shot from the point (they forced him to take a shot from a low % area) and it was a seeing eye shot. Put Zetterberg, Datsyuk Filppula and Lidstrom on the ice and the shot still goes in.
Want my opinion? I've seen enough of the rookies this year. They have had their chance. When the Detroit Griffins were in action they were getting a whoppin' 18 shots on net. Or maybe 15. Sometimes 21. Done with having to rely on Zetterberg's line to pull things through. I want a full roster of NHL players, and that includes Cleary.
Sure Cleary isn't what he used to be, it's his knee. But the guy doesn't lose the puck in the neutral zone, nor does he turn it over at the blue line (hardly). He takes it along the boards and takes it behind the net at the very least, or puts up a low percentage shot. Hey, it's a shot. Can't complain. More than what Mursak (and Emmerton) is doing, you know, rookies...more of those kids you want to bring up.
Also, just because he was on the ice for that goal doesn't make it his fault. They were in position...Callahan took a shot from the point (they forced him to take a shot from a low % area) and it was a seeing eye shot. Put Zetterberg, Datsyuk Filppula and Lidstrom on the ice and the shot still goes in.
Sorry, have to disagree again here. They were not in position, Cleary was still plodding back through the Neutral zone when Callahan let the shot go from the slot not the point.
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Put Zetterberg, Datsyuk Filppula and Lidstrom on the ice and the shot still goes in.
No it doesn't. Filppula and Datsyuk back check and play very well defensively, Cleary did not last night and hasn't done so in a long while.
Cleary has lost the puck along the side boards more often that the rookies have done this year, he doesn't have the leg strength to gain the zone and take the puck in to the corners let alone get off a "Low percentage" shot and maybe this is due to his injury, begging the question again....."Why is he playing if he's hurt?"
See this is where we disagree. If you have noticed lately he cannot get it down the ice. He is losing all the battles along the boards and is coughing up the puck in the offensive zone and then not being able to cover back (which incidentally, is how NY scored the GWG last night)
In this circumstance I would just much rather see a kid that would give 100% effort rather than Cleary drudging around like he just can't go
One play in particular last night, Cleary got the puck about 10 feet on the defensive side of center ice, he turned up ice and moved so slow, even I, could not believe it. A Rangers player closed on him and Cleary, still 5 feet before center ice had to try and dump the puck into the zone (which would have been icing) yet he only got it to the Rangers blue line. It was terrible turn over.
Point being, he is not effectively responsible with the puck.
I was of the opinion Fil was worth 3 mil from day one. My concerns were A) I didn't know if he'd ever be worth more than three, so I didn't see a ton of upside in the deal and B) I thought Holland could have maybe gotten Fil for less had he not overpaid Cleary by the 250-500K I thought he did at the time. They were generally comparable players although Fil was better, so the argument I made at the time was that if Cleary signed first whatever he got was the absolute least Fil could get.
