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Old
03-05-2012, 07:26 AM
  #1
EspenK
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How are Defensemen rated

I don't know if this is an acceptable thread or not. If it needs to be moved please do so.

I was reading about someone a few days ago and the article said "could be a #3 defensemen". So that got me to wondering what distinguishes a 3 from a 4, if anything and for that matter a 1 from a 2? I always had seen d-men referred to as top 2 or 2nd pairing, that sort of classification. So I just wondered if anyone can explain the difference.

Thanks.

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03-05-2012, 08:35 AM
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blahblah
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I don't know how "they" define it, but, to me, a #3 defensemen is that guy that can play extended 1/2 minutes in the event of injury. A #4 would be spot duty.

That #1 is your big minutes guy that you want out there 27 minutes a night against the other teams top players. That #2 guy compliments him, but might not be ready to anchor that pairing if the #1 falls for 60+ games. Durability, strength, and conditioning are big factors in those rolls as well.

We don't have a #1. Jack Johnson might be a #2, has a chance to be a #1. Tyutin is a #4. Wiz is Wiz.

Sometimes, fans list the the stay-at-home type as the #1 or #3 and the more offensive player as the #2 or #4 unless you are lucky enough to have a Lindstrom who is just, all around, sick.

Obviously, it's a depth chart designation. Whoever you move up, in the event of injury, has to be able to fill in those minutes. A #4 might have limited capabilities to fill in on the top pairing in the even of a couple of injuries. Your #3 guy might be able to handle those minutes (and game situations) for 20 games at a time without hurting the team.

It's a big reason I get frustrated with Howson and our defense. It doesn't seem like he gives consideration with people abilities to play in roles in the event of injury. Tyutin is not capable of playing 25 minutes a night as a 1/2 for an extended period of time. Yet, we pretend his is. It's not fair to him or to the team.


Last edited by blahblah: 03-05-2012 at 08:41 AM.
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03-05-2012, 08:53 AM
  #3
Matt Foley
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bb pretty much nailed it. Good job.

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03-05-2012, 08:59 AM
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I think Commodore had a R-17 rating. Just kidding.

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03-05-2012, 11:18 AM
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CarolinaBlueJacket
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There are basically two groups of Dmen in the NHL.

Bad Group
1. CBJ Dmen

Good group
2. Everybody else

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03-05-2012, 11:32 AM
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blahblah said exactly what I would say, so nothing really to add.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaBlueJacket View Post
There are basically two groups of Dmen in the NHL.

Bad Group
1. CBJ Dmen

Good group
2. Everybody else
I disagree, I wouldn't trade our D for quite a few teams D's. Just think, we could have Toronto's group of defensmen.

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03-05-2012, 12:49 PM
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blahblah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaBlueJacket View Post
There are basically two groups of Dmen in the NHL.

Bad Group
1. CBJ Dmen

Good group
2. Everybody else
I see we've embraced the "Kick em while they are down" attitude. Individually, I don't think any of our D are all that bad. Collectively you have too many guys playing minutes they shouldn't be. In their appropriate roles they are decent, if overpaid in some cases.

A guy where I work was dumping on Tyutin and I got him to concede that in a 3/4 role, he would be far more effective.

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03-05-2012, 01:49 PM
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Nordique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I see we've embraced the "Kick em while they are down" attitude. Individually, I don't think any of our D are all that bad. Collectively you have too many guys playing minutes they shouldn't be. In their appropriate roles they are decent, if overpaid in some cases.

A guy where I work was dumping on Tyutin and I got him to concede that in a 3/4 role, he would be far more effective.
I think we are 1 good shut down guy from have a playoff capable group on defense. Of course, depth is a problem.

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03-05-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I see we've embraced the "Kick em while they are down" attitude. Individually, I don't think any of our D are all that bad. Collectively you have too many guys playing minutes they shouldn't be. In their appropriate roles they are decent, if overpaid in some cases.

A guy where I work was dumping on Tyutin and I got him to concede that in a 3/4 role, he would be far more effective.
I think the Jackets are a #1 defenseman away from a decent defense. Granted, that's only one player, but it's like being only a #1 center away from a solid top 6. That one player is among the hardest to get and usually has to be developed rather than acquired via UFA.

If The Jackets defense looked like

Monster two way #1 - JMFJ
Tyutin-Nikitin
Moore- Wisniewski

Methot/Savard

It would be a very solid defense.

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03-05-2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
I think the Jackets are a #1 defenseman away from a decent defense.

Monster two way #1 - JMFJ
Tyutin-Nikitin
Moore- Wisniewski

Methot/Savard

It would be a very solid defense.
As I said a long time ago. Trade Methot and get your #1 somehow. It could be a decent defense, maybe even outstanding. It would give Moore, Savard, and Golo a chance to develop into the system as opposed to being thrown in to the wolves.

Having said that, it would be a very expensive defense. You would be starting to approach a 25 million dollar defense.

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03-05-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
As I said a long time ago. Trade Methot and get your #1 somehow. It could be a decent defense, maybe even outstanding. It would give Moore, Savard, and Golo a chance to develop into the system as opposed to being thrown in to the wolves.

Having said that, it would be a very expensive defense. You would be starting to approach a 25 million dollar defense.
Aye, there's the sticky part...

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03-05-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
Aye, there's the sticky part...
I hear we might be trading a franchise winger. Maybe he could net one.

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03-05-2012, 04:57 PM
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Serious question...how would people feel about getting a guy (like McDonagh for example) that seems to show the signs of being a true top pair guy? I'd love the established guy but I just don't know if it can be reasonably accomplished even using Nash. Who would that be?

Personally, I think a guy like McDonagh, Alzner or even Schenn would be a great fit on this defense. If we are able to split up the likes of JJ and Wiz (I like them but not as a pair - I liken it to Carter-Nash).

I know there are other options out there but they may be possible to obtain as part of a Nash deal (or something else) and they would all be upgrades in CBus along with given us that complementary skill set I think we need. In fact, I really like Alzner but don't see how Nash would fit in Washington. Alzner, Johansson and Holtby.... mmmmmm. Okay maybe ????

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03-05-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
blahblah said exactly what I would say, so nothing really to add.




I disagree, I wouldn't trade our D for quite a few teams D's. Just think, we could have Toronto's group of defensmen.
That was not a serious statement on my part. Hey what can you do when you have a season this bad if not have a little fun with it?

In all seriousness we do need a #1 dman. Teams that have success have had dmen like Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, Stevens, etc.

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03-10-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoggz22 View Post
i think commodore had a r-17 rating. just kidding.
nc-17

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03-10-2012, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaBlueJacket View Post
In all seriousness we do need a #1 dman. Teams that have success have had dmen like Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, Stevens, etc.
Not sure there are 30 of those around the league. We may have to do with JMFJ as a solid 1.5

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03-13-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I hear we might be trading a franchise winger. Maybe he could net one.
If Nash is moved (when Nash is moved?) I have to think defense will move down to #3 on the list of needs. We know goaltending is our #1 need right now, and if you move Carter, Vermette, and Nash you leave a huge hole in your top 6 that will need serious attention. That leaves nothing but a couple of 20 goal scorers on offense, and little to no experience at center. You have to make a minimum of 2 quality top 6 acquisitions. Otherwise your looking at an RJ-Brass-Prospal top line and Letestu with 2 prospects on your second.

I would not be shocked at all if the defense we have now is back on the ice come August with no substantial additions.

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03-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #18
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i think a d of:

JJ - Wiz
Tyutin - Nikitin
Moore - Methot
Savard

is a really good defense when Methot comes back and if Nikitin continues to play as well as he has for us.. both he and Tyutin and JJ and Wiz have shown really good chemistry and Moore and Methot have games which compliment each other.next season will be the first that i will ever go in not having a gripe about the D.

i also think that getting a "true" #1 (instead of hoping JJ is that player) would be too expensive. remember that tyutin is 4.5M next year , wiz is 5.5, jj is almost 4.5, methot is 3 and could be moved to bring in a cheaper 3rd pairing option if need be, nikitin is owed a new deal. imagine another 5M~ on top of that for a #1.. that would essentially be +2M if methot is bumped out of the equation.

and that is not addressing the team's cheap and poor goaltending.. a player like harding (who i have said many times would be my #1 priority as a UFA) is going to cost what? $3-4M?)

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03-13-2012, 02:03 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
If Nash is moved (when Nash is moved?) I have to think defense will move down to #3 on the list of needs. We know goaltending is our #1 need right now, a
If we trade Nash and a goal tender is the prize, we are bigger idiots than I thought. If you think our defense is top 6 in the West, as it is now, I'll could not disagree more.

Our work on defense is not done. Not even close. I'm not going to bother trying to convince those around here any more of it. Jack Johnson is a great addition and in 3 years he might be a true #1. But he isn't right now and Wiz is nothing close to a #2. Richards talking about Tyutin and Nikitin being our "shut down" pair leaves me shivering in fear.

We are improved, the depth is better. We might even have a good enough group to make the playoffs on the back end. But we aren't going anywhere in a playoff series.

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03-13-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahsnairb View Post
i think a d of:

JJ - Wiz
Tyutin - Nikitin
Moore - Methot
Savard

is a really good defense when Methot comes back and if Nikitin continues to play as well as he has for us.. both he and Tyutin and JJ and Wiz have shown really good chemistry and Moore and Methot have games which compliment each other.next season will be the first that i will ever go in not having a gripe about the D.

i also think that getting a "true" #1 (instead of hoping JJ is that player) would be too expensive. remember that tyutin is 4.5M next year , wiz is 5.5, jj is almost 4.5, methot is 3 and could be moved to bring in a cheaper 3rd pairing option if need be, nikitin is owed a new deal. imagine another 5M~ on top of that for a #1.. that would essentially be +2M if methot is bumped out of the equation.

and that is not addressing the team's cheap and poor goaltending.. a player like harding (who i have said many times would be my #1 priority as a UFA) is going to cost what? $3-4M?)
I don't know if I'd call it really good, but honestly its as good or better as the defense we had when Mason won the Calder.

I think alot of folks pick this defense apart without understanding that the guy in net is the worst starting goalie in the league over the last 3 seasons. His backups, journeyman veterans, have outperformed him consistently.

I'm not going to grab the stats again, but when you see Garon and Sanford putting up very respectable numbers playing behind the same defense that Mason wilts behind, you really can't continue to blame that defense.

should we move Nash, I'd rank our needs...

1. Starting Goaltender
2. Top 6 forward
3. Shutdown Defenseman


Last edited by Nordique: 03-15-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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03-13-2012, 03:10 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
If we trade Nash and a goal tender is the prize, we are bigger idiots than I thought. If you think our defense is top 6 in the West, as it is now, I'll could not disagree more.

Our work on defense is not done. Not even close. I'm not going to bother trying to convince those around here any more of it. Jack Johnson is a great addition and in 3 years he might be a true #1. But he isn't right now and Wiz is nothing close to a #2. Richards talking about Tyutin and Nikitin being our "shut down" pair leaves me shivering in fear.

We are improved, the depth is better. We might even have a good enough group to make the playoffs on the back end. But we aren't going anywhere in a playoff series.
What scares you more...

Mason in goal

or

JJ-Wiz, Tyutin-Nikitin, Methot-Moore (in no particular order)

or

Prospal-Brass-RJU
?-Letestu-?


That defensive corps is the least of my concerns.

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03-13-2012, 03:13 PM
  #22
pete goegan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
What scares you more...

Mason in goal

or

JJ-Wiz, Tyutin-Nikitin, Methot-Moore (in no particular order)

or

Prospal-Brass-RJU
?-Letestu-?
That's a very depressing choice to be forced to make.

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Old
03-13-2012, 04:09 PM
  #23
mt-svk
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Our defense could be:

Tyutin, Nikitin
J. Johnson, Wisniewski
Moore, xxx

xxx - a right handed, defensive, speed defensman

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03-13-2012, 08:40 PM
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I think Methot stands a good chance to be moved and in the event Nash ends up with the Rangers I think we ultimately end up with McDonagh or Del Zotto. I would prefer McDonagh. We'll see. It's way to up in the air to guess what may happen. For all we know we could trade Nash to the Rangers get McDonagh and then turn around and trade the #1 pick to Toronto for a deal that includes Gardiner or Schenn. Now you could move one of the more expensive top 3 on the current roster (If possible or if interested)

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03-14-2012, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
I think Methot stands a good chance to be moved and in the event Nash ends up with the Rangers I think we ultimately end up with McDonagh or Del Zotto. I would prefer McDonagh. We'll see. It's way to up in the air to guess what may happen. For all we know we could trade Nash to the Rangers get McDonagh and then turn around and trade the #1 pick to Toronto for a deal that includes Gardiner or Schenn. Now you could move one of the more expensive top 3 on the current roster (If possible or if interested)
I would take Dylan McIlrath

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