I don't know why everyone hates Lowe so much, he bought high on some key components of a Finals team. That same team he built with some excellent trades. It was a mistake we all bought into. Good Oilers got bad deals, but nothing was clearly too crippiling as it wasn't all that hard to find cap space. Tambellini has ****ed us not Lowe.
Good for him great Oiler, and before things went a little downhill here in Edmonton a guy who was very well respected as an NHL executive. I think this is great news for Oiler fans and means we could see guys like Hall, Hopkins, Eberle, Gagner, Dubnyk?, Smyth?, Schultz? don the Red & White.
Lowe also built the team than ran into the ground.
The return for Cole was poor, i'm sure they could have parlayed him into something better than O'Sullivan and Kotalik. Brodziak was not disposable, every season since has been proof. Souray's problem was seemingly with Tambellini, and although i disagree with the way he handled it i do thik the things he said probably had merit. Visovsky did not ask to be traded, thats just speculation. He was unhappy to be moved after the commitment he made to LA, but he seemed just fine here. Giving Roloson two years would have been much better than the Khabibulin deal. Cogliano had a fair bit of value for the forst two seasons of Tambo's tenure, so i'd say he was a good piece to have going forward. Gagner, Hemsky, Gilbert, ect... is a good core. Especially considering some players still had value like Staios, Moreau, Grebeshkov, ect... The Oilers went from a playoff bubble team to a perrenial last place team under Tambo not Lowe.
Souray's outburst talked about being rushed right from the beginning so his problem was at least as much with Lowe and MacT as it was with Tambo. His only problem with Tambo seemed to be that he was unable to trade him, considering nobody took him off waivers being hard to trade doesnt seem far fetched.
If Tambo is so bad then it's another personnel mistake on Lowe. Prendergrast having his job as long as he did is on Lowe, as is the constant use of the old boys club as assistant coaches. I wont defend Tambo, I dont think he's done any great job but I cant accept Kevin Lowe not taking the majority of the blame for the situation he created and even if parts of it were due to the EIG budget make no mistake they were problems that existed before Tambellini took his job.
The return for Cole was poor, i'm sure they could have parlayed him into something better than O'Sullivan and Kotalik. Brodziak was not disposable, every season since has been proof. Souray's problem was seemingly with Tambellini, and although i disagree with the way he handled it i do thik the things he said probably had merit. Visovsky did not ask to be traded, thats just speculation. He was unhappy to be moved after the commitment he made to LA, but he seemed just fine here. Giving Roloson two years would have been much better than the Khabibulin deal. Cogliano had a fair bit of value for the forst two seasons of Tambo's tenure, so i'd say he was a good piece to have going forward. Gagner, Hemsky, Gilbert, ect... is a good core. Especially considering some players still had value like Staios, Moreau, Grebeshkov, ect... The Oilers went from a playoff bubble team to a perrenial last place team under Tambo not Lowe.
He tanked the team with his inability to succesfuly add i trades or the offseason. The only aspects of deals that have ended up well are for futures, and we all know McGregor is doing his job. His free agent sigings haven't worked out, and his assesments have taken far too long. At least Lowe had balls. We need an aggressive GM to take us over the top.
They were in no way at all a playoff bubble team in 2007/2008. We lucked out in 2006 and rode the wave to game 7 of the SCF (mind you Pronger helped...a lot).
The return for Cole was justified, as O'Sullivan and Kotalik both looked to be better than they were and Cole played like crap for us.
Absolutely Brodziak was disposable at the time for us, although he'd be great right now.
Souray's problem was a lack of patience and being too selfish - as well as overvaluing himself.
It was well circulated that Visnovsky had privately asked to be traded, but he didn't go public because he is a true professional (unlike ahem...Souray).
The Roloson thing, i could actually agree with but two years seemed steep due to his age (at the time).
Gags, Hemsky and Gilbert is a good start to a core for sure...
I disagree that Staios, Moreau, Grebeshkov had good value....Moreau?? Really??? The Staios trade with Calgary was a steal of a deal, and Oiler fans were laughing their ***** off. Grebs gave up too much in his own end period.
As far as the trades for futures...that's how you start a rebuild. He tried to follow Kevin's method of big signings and making a run to the playoffs again, but it failed horribly due to the pieces Kevin left him with (see Moreau, Staios, Grebs etc). So the rebuild was started the very next year, and here we are today. If you think Lowe left things in a state where Tambo would succeed right away, then i really can only disagree with you. Not that Tambo has done an excellent job, but i feel he's done ok considering.
They were in no way at all a playoff bubble team in 2007/2008. We lucked out in 2006 and rode the wave to game 7 of the SCF (mind you Pronger helped...a lot).
Sorry, 2006 was not about luck. That team would have waltzed into the playoffs with ease if they had even replacement level goaltending that year.
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The return for Cole was justified, as O'Sullivan and Kotalik both looked to be better than they were and Cole played like crap for us.
Kotalik was a totally uneccesary waste of an asset (he was an impending UFA that year). POS was just another Tambo(tm) reclamation project.
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Absolutely Brodziak was disposable at the time for us, although he'd be great right now.
He wasn't and many said as much then. They were right.
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Souray's problem was a lack of patience and being too selfish - as well as overvaluing himself.
It was a bad signing from the get go due to age and injuries. The whole situation was also poorly handled by the management.
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It was well circulated that Visnovsky had privately asked to be traded, but he didn't go public because he is a true professional (unlike ahem...Souray).
Even if that's so, the best return was yet another guy with chronic injury problems? Really?
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The Roloson thing, i could actually agree with but two years seemed steep due to his age (at the time).
Which is why the Khabibulin signing was so nuts. Guy is what, two years younger than Roli and they signed him for twice what Roli was asking for.
Sorry, 2006 was not about luck. That team would have waltzed into the playoffs with ease if they had even replacement level goaltending that year.
Kotalik was a totally uneccesary waste of an asset (he was an impending UFA that year). POS was just another Tambo(tm) reclamation project.
He wasn't and many said as much then. They were right.
It was a bad signing from the get go due to age and injuries. The whole situation was also poorly handled by the management.
Even if that's so, the best return was yet another guy with chronic injury problems? Really?
Which is why the Khabibulin signing was so nuts. Guy is what, two years younger than Roli and they signed him for twice what Roli was asking for.
I can understand you may disagree, but..you know we barely got to the playoffs and barely squeezed past Detroit right? As far as the goaltending issue - umm that was Lowe's thing to do as the GM no?
So what you are saying here is that Lowe was an awesome GM who created a top of the league roster? You're also saying that Tambo came in and ruined it all and caused the rebuild? Care to explain that?
Oh wait...maybe it can be explained
You heard it here folks - Fury liked Lowe as the GM, and thought he did a bang up job.
Is that Lowe or the low budget EIG? Katz gave the organization possibilities in the budget they never had before. Other than the Horcoff signing no deal can be labled backbreaking, and at the time (as a recently bumped thread showed) it was considered a good deal. The Moreau, and Staios deals clearly weren't all that detremental and nobody knew Pisani would get sick. Lowe constructed a very good team one spring, he had a lot of good moments. Remember when Tambellini took over the team just missed the playoffs in his first year because of a late season collapse partly due to a poor deadline day. It was the next season that they fell apart .
If we look back at that team we see it had current solid NHLers like:
It seem's to me that a decent core was in place and Tambellini mismanaged it. I'm not saying mistakes weren't made but the catastrophic trades were largely Tambellini's fault. Smyth was a mistake, but then again does anyone on here believe he was a 6+ million dollar player? Lowe is being scapegoated depite the fact Tambellini has been the chief problem here.
That is not a great "core", that is a bunch of support players.
Which catastrophic trades are these that Tambellini made?
Tambellini had pretty much a wasteland to work with when he took over. There was no farm team, it was a capped out team full of bad contracts and the core was mediocre at best.
Now the Oilers have one of the strongest farm systems in the league, the prospect pool is the deepest that it has been in years and they now have cap flexibility going forward.
Tambellini still has his work cut out for him but he has done a decent job so far considering the state of the franchise when he took over.
Sorry, 2006 was not about luck. That team would have waltzed into the playoffs with ease if they had even replacement level goaltending that year.
I beg to differ. 2006 was a lucky year as the Oilers barely made it into the playoffs. They went on a roll in the playoff mainly because of Roloson and Pronger but even with them they eeked in.
So with your post, are you trying to say that Lowe did everything right, and didn't leave Tambo with a mess to deal with?
No. If I thought so, I'd say as much.
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That's the crux of my disagreement with Eskimo44. I'm not saying that Tambo has been awesome, but i'd give him a C+/B- considering the **** show that Lowe left him with.
That's the bottom line there isn't it? Whether Lowe left the ship in shambles or not?
As Eskimo44 said, truthfully, the Oilers went from a playoff bubble team to a perrenial last place team under Tambo not Lowe. But I think both of them should be gone from the organization.
Souray's outburst talked about being rushed right from the beginning so his problem was at least as much with Lowe and MacT as it was with Tambo. His only problem with Tambo seemed to be that he was unable to trade him, considering nobody took him off waivers being hard to trade doesnt seem far fetched.
If Tambo is so bad then it's another personnel mistake on Lowe. Prendergrast having his job as long as he did is on Lowe, as is the constant use of the old boys club as assistant coaches. I wont defend Tambo, I dont think he's done any great job but I cant accept Kevin Lowe not taking the majority of the blame for the situation he created and even if parts of it were due to the EIG budget make no mistake they were problems that existed before Tambellini took his job.
No his problem with Tambo was a lack of communication, Tambo was the GM not Lowe. Lowe may have made the mistake too, however nobody knows that. Ultimatley the buck has to stop somewhere and i think it's only logical to assume it starts at Tambo. I don't understand why deals like Moreau, Staios, Pisani are being brought up as if they were somehow crippiling, they were for fairly low money and as we saw easily dealt with. I'm not saying Lowe is a regular David Poile, i'm arguing he doesn't deserve the amount of blame attributed to him. Tambellini was the one who has failed time after time, Lowe just had some hiccups. Lowe = Mediocre, Tambellini = ******. That's my two cents on it.
As Eskimo44 said, truthfully, the Oilers went from a playoff bubble team to a perrenial last place team under Tambo not Lowe. But I think both of them should be gone from the organization.
Yes, this is a true statement, but i honestly don't think anyone could have made a difference due to Lowe's mismanagement. That's where the disagreement came in - whether it was due to Lowe's leaving the team in shambles, or Tambo's inability to fix it.
Personally i think that Tambo did the best he could. That doesn't mean he did an awesome job however.
I beg to differ. 2006 was a lucky year as the Oilers barely made it into the playoffs. They went on a roll in the playoff mainly because of Roloson and Pronger but even with them they eeked in.
Pronger also had an off year.
I think if the 2006 team had another kick at it in 2006-07 they would have won the division. They were certainly no worse than the Minnesota team which finished with 104 points.
As for Lowe, he was a very good GM from 2000 to 2006 but the success of that team caused planning to go out the window and some irrational decisions were made (plenty of which were agreed with by a good number of fans at the time).
I beg to differ. 2006 was a lucky year as the Oilers barely made it into the playoffs. They went on a roll in the playoff mainly because of Roloson and Pronger but even with them they eeked in.
That was a very good team who had bad (very bad)goaltending until 7 games after Rolli got here.
Its just not that easy to get a real good goalie. Even when they got Rolli all sorts of geniuses here were were *****ing about that & what they gave up.
[QUOTE=Hockey Fan #751;45600679]Pronger also had an off year.
I think if the 2006 team had another kick at it in 2006-07 they would have won the division. They were certainly no worse than the Minnesota team which finished with 104 points.
As for Lowe, he was a very good GM from 2000 to 2006 but the success of that team caused planning to go out the window and some irrational decisions were made (plenty of which were agreed with by a good number of fans at the time).[/QUOTE]
They were in no way at all a playoff bubble team in 2007/2008. We lucked out in 2006 and rode the wave to game 7 of the SCF (mind you Pronger helped...a lot).
And who traded for Pronger? That team was solid top to bottom, no apparent weaknesses he managed to address nearly every hole on the roster by playoff time. Who can argue with the deals to add Spacek, Samasanov, Peca, Pronger, Roloson, even Tarnstrom all in one season. He had a very successfull year, that in of itself shows a great deal of competience. Although i think this was his highwater mark, i don't believe the team was left in the ruins many on here act like it was. They were a playoff team going into Tambo's first deadline, after the deadline they weren't.
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The return for Cole was justified, as O'Sullivan and Kotalik both looked to be better than they were and Cole played like crap for us.
Cole was coming around, starting to look good with Gagner on a line. However i understand why he was dealt. Kotalik was **** and many called it, i thought he played good here, but his track record and recent history show the mark of a mediocre player. A 2nd was NOT justifiable. LA was trying to get rid of O'Sullivan for a reason, he was invisible away from Kopitar. But besides that do you think it was wise to move a PWF out for a smurf, despite already having a small top 9? I thought that was our biggest problem before? Again thanks go in large part to Tambo on that one.
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Absolutely Brodziak was disposable at the time for us, although he'd be great right now.
Who made Brodziak expendable? The Oilers saw a dramatic decrease in defensive ability the same year he was jettisoned off, i think it is partialy owing to that deal. Nevermind the return was ver lackluster. Brodziak is now a legitimate big 3rd line center with a strong two way game.
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Souray's problem was a lack of patience and being too selfish - as well as overvaluing himself.
Souray is too blame also, no doubt. But the comments were hardly awe inspiring, how many people thought they were without at least some validation. The coming back too soon, lack of communication issues were the same as other players had fleshed out before him.
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It was well circulated that Visnovsky had privately asked to be traded, but he didn't go public because he is a true professional (unlike ahem...Souray).
You don't know that, that's conjecture. Don't pretend your privy to what's said behind closed doors.
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The Roloson thing, i could actually agree with but two years seemed steep due to his age (at the time).
I thought so a little too, however an appropriate solution is not to go out and sign a SLIGHTLY younger goalie for more money and term than he's worth. Khabibulin is now working on his second good year post lockout, HOORAY!
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I disagree that Staios, Moreau, Grebeshkov had good value....Moreau?? Really??? The Staios trade with Calgary was a steal of a deal, and Oiler fans were laughing their ***** off. Grebs gave up too much in his own end period.
Staios and Moreau were coming off good years after Tambo's first year. Look it up. The problem Tambo made was he didn't recognize their declining skill and move them while he could. Even after one/two ****** seasons Staios fetched a return (and is still playing), and Moreau was picked up on waivers. Grebeshkov went for a 2nd, and recieved multiple contract offers to stay i the NHL according to a recent hockey world article. A good GM has to be able to evaluate when a talent is at a low point, high point, emerging, or regressing and act accordingly. Tambellini has failed time and time again in this regard.
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As far as the trades for futures...that's how you start a rebuild. He tried to follow Kevin's method of big signings and making a run to the playoffs again, but it failed horribly due to the pieces Kevin left him with (see Moreau, Staios, Grebs etc). So the rebuild was started the very next year, and here we are today. If you think Lowe left things in a state where Tambo would succeed right away, then i really can only disagree with you. Not that Tambo has done an excellent job, but i feel he's done ok considering.
This is where i would alleviate some blame from Tambo, getting the big signing seemed to have a lot to do with ownership. The fact is Tambellini had some important decisions to make and instead dithered away, he did not do a superior job to Lowe and all we need to do is refrence the records.
That was a very good team who had bad (very bad)goaltending until 7 games after Rolli got here.
Its just not that easy to get a real good goalie. Even when they got Rolli all sorts of geniuses here were were *****ing about that & what they gave up.
Rollie's most career high in games was 50 at that point, he was 19th in save % based on his save % in Minny which later took a hit when he came here. He had inferior stats to Manny Fernandez on the same team as well. We gave up a 1st and a conditional pick IIRC, had we gotten bounced in the 1st round that would've been a really *****y trade.
I think if the 2006 team had another kick at it in 2006-07 they would have won the division. They were certainly no worse than the Minnesota team which finished with 104 points.
As for Lowe, he was a very good GM from 2000 to 2006 but the success of that team caused planning to go out the window and some irrational decisions were made (plenty of which were agreed with by a good number of fans at the time).
Yeah this is pretty much where i stand too. Some of those moves were tough to blame him for, and although i agree he should be held accountable for the fact some were definite mistakes, i don't think he did anything close to crippiling the team. Tambo did.
Rollie's most career high in games was 50 at that point, he was 19th in save % based on his save % in Minny which later took a hit when he came here. He had inferior stats to Manny Fernandez on the same team as well. We gave up a 1st and a conditional pick IIRC, had we gotten bounced in the 1st round that would've been a really *****y trade.
But they didn't get bounced, and Roloson put in a Conn Smyth type performance prior to injury. If a slight overpayment is required to help fill a mojor hole on a contender i would rather a GM who goes for it than who twiddles their thumbs.
But they didn't get bounced, and Roloson put in a Conn Smyth type performance prior to injury. If a slight overpayment is required to help fill a mojor hole on a contender i would rather a GM who goes for it than who twiddles their thumbs.
My point is that it was far from a certainty that we would go on a lengthy run, it was a ballsy move but one that easily could've backfired.
That is not a great "core", that is a bunch of support players.
Which catastrophic trades are these that Tambellini made?
Tambellini had pretty much a wasteland to work with when he took over. There was no farm team, it was a capped out team full of bad contracts and the core was mediocre at best.
Now the Oilers have one of the strongest farm systems in the league, the prospect pool is the deepest that it has been in years and they now have cap flexibility going forward.
Tambellini still has his work cut out for him but he has done a decent job so far considering the state of the franchise when he took over.
I agree it wasn't a great core, i said it was decent. I already addressed these comments instead of me repeating myself and fixing misquotes why don't you address the comments i made on these exact issues with a rebuttal. A good debate doesn't go:
Person A makes point 1
Person B disagrees with point 1
Person A defends point 1 with rebuttal
Person C makes same disagreements as person B, ignores exsisting rebuttal on point 1
Perhaps you didn't see it, but maybe try reading my whole position then. You make some valid points, i've just already covered them. If you want to disagree with my rebuttal thats worth my time but debating the same position twice isn't.
Yeah and my point has been having balls (Lowe) is better than no balls (Tambo).
I completely disagree, Tambo has shown balls. In dealing with Lombardi twice, in dealing with Hemsky,in telling Souray to pack his **** and to **** off, in trying to land Heatley, etc. The difference is that he is going about the rebuild in a way that you wouldn't but I would, it's just a difference of opinion in how to execute the rebuild IMO, not a lack of balls. When the ship gets turned around and we need to make some moves to get to the next level, that's when we'll see if he has the kind of balls that you give Lowe full marks on. Until then, it's a moot point.
The Staios trade with Calgary was a steal of a deal, and Oiler fans were laughing their ***** off. Grebs gave up too much in his own end period.
