I can understand you may disagree, but..you know we barely got to the playoffs and barely squeezed past Detroit right? As far as the goaltending issue - umm that was Lowe's thing to do as the GM no?
So what you are saying here is that Lowe was an awesome GM who created a top of the league roster? You're also saying that Tambo came in and ruined it all and caused the rebuild? Care to explain that?
Oh wait...maybe it can be explained
You heard it here folks - Fury liked Lowe as the GM, and thought he did a bang up job.
The Bill O'Reilly picture should basically be your whole comment, because strawmanning like that is a hallmark of his show. This response is so ridiculous and irrational i'm just going to point out the falliacy and see if you can figure out why.
The last sentance was not something you can attribute to him. He's right up until after the cup run Lowe was considered a top young exec. in the league. He did do a very good job for a number of years.
I beg to differ. 2006 was a lucky year as the Oilers barely made it into the playoffs. They went on a roll in the playoff mainly because of Roloson and Pronger but even with them they eeked in.
The Oilers were a playoff bubble team with:
1. A three-headed goalie monstrosity. Gods they were awful. Having to change goalies for the shootout lol.
2. Peca just putting in time until he could bolt to the east. He played much better when games started to mean something.
3. MAB as Pronger's defence partner.
After those things were remedied, it was much better than a typical 8th seed team. IMO it wasn't as "Cinderella" as most played it up to be.
I completely disagree, Tambo has shown balls. In dealing with Lombardi twice, in dealing with Hemsky,in telling Souray to pack his **** and to **** off, in trying to land Heatley, etc. The difference is that he is going about the rebuild in a way that you wouldn't but I would, it's just a difference of opinion in how to execute the rebuild IMO, not a lack of balls. When the ship gets turned around and we need to make some moves to get to the next level, that's when we'll see if he has the kind of balls that you give Lowe full marks on. Until then, it's a moot point.
Tambellini has doe some good things, but he has been bad more often tha not. He showed negative balls in the Heatley fiasco, Souray could have been a good player for us this was/is a well respected NHLer outside of Edmonton. Coaches and players alike have went to bat for this guy, there is more than one side to this story. Like you said time will tell, i'm just not all that optimistic Tambo will be the right guy to put us over the top. I think he's the reason we are where we are, and the residual effect of all the great young talent is not something he should be rewarded for in terms of perception. Sucking so hard that you get multiple lottery picks is not a hallmark of a competent GM.
Tambellini has doe some good things, but he has been bad more often tha not. He showed negative balls in the Heatley fiasco, Souray could have been a good player for us this was/is a well respected NHLer outside of Edmonton. Coaches and players alike have went to bat for this guy, there is more than one side to this story. Like you said time will tell, i'm just not all that optimistic Tambo will be the right guy to put us over the top. I think he's the reason we are where we are, and the residual effect of all the great young talent is not something he should be rewarded for in terms of perception. Sucking so hard that you get multiple lottery picks is not a hallmark of a competent GM.
IMO the reasons we are where we are is three fold. #1-Pronger, Spacek, Peca, Samsonov, etc. bailed at years end. #2-Lowe overpaid a vast number of guys which screwed us out of roster flexibility. #3-Management Tambo and Lowe included decided to tear it down and start from the ground up. That's my take.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
I completely disagree, Tambo has shown balls. In dealing with Lombardi twice, in dealing with Hemsky,in telling Souray to pack his **** and to **** off, in trying to land Heatley, etc.
If those moves are balls, it shows how bad we need brains.
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The difference is that he is going about the rebuild in a way that you wouldn't but I would, it's just a difference of opinion in how to execute the rebuild IMO, not a lack of balls.When the ship gets turned around and we need to make some moves to get to the next level, that's when we'll see if he has the kind of balls that you give Lowe full marks on. Until then, it's a moot point.
The point I keep hammering away at is that there's no real reason to put any faith in Tambo's ability to be the guy when it comes time to fill the holes needed. You've been up front about expecting progress next season, but the problem is there's no reason for the team to make any dramatic changes if that doesn't come to pas because hey: rebuild!
If those moves are balls, it shows how bad we need brains.
The point I keep hammering away at is that there's no real reason to put any faith in Tambo's ability to be the guy when it comes time to fill the holes needed. You've been up front about expecting progress next season, but the problem is there's no reason for the team to make any dramatic changes if that doesn't come to pas because hey: rebuild!
Tambo strong armed Lombardi on both trades, he held his ground and got better deals that he should've. Regardless of what your take maybe on the other two scenarios, how do you disagree with the LA moves especially knowing what we do now?
Also I do honestly expect us to improve our club this offseason. Retaining Hemsky instead of moving him for picks/prospects IMO proved just that. If we start next year with Barker and Potter in our top 6 and Khabibulin and Dubnyk in net then I'll admit that I was wrong, very wrong. At that point I would pick up my torch and pitchfork
The Bill O'Reilly picture should basically be your whole comment, because strawmanning like that is a hallmark of his show. This response is so ridiculous and irrational i'm just going to point out the falliacy and see if you can figure out why.
The last sentance was not something you can attribute to him. He's right up until after the cup run Lowe was considered a top young exec. in the league. He did do a very good job for a number of years.
He did a decent job, not a very good job. The best he did was signing Pronger, and we all know how well that turned out for us.
The response of mine was rediculous for a reason. I treat irrationality with irrationality. Lowe did a half decent job as far as trades, but left the backbone of the organization in shambles - no minor league team (Springfield doesn't count as they sucked that bad - and Lowe didn't suport them the way he should have IMO), and a ship severly listing in the water. Tambo had his hands full just trying to keep the damn thing afloat.
The Oiler culture that Lowe left in his wake was a disaster and had a horrible reputation - partly due to Lowe's bungling of Comrie and partly due to certain players in the lockeroom.
I think Tambo's done a good job of cleaning out the trash and ushering in a new culture for the Oil - less oppresive to the young guns.
Yes there was an issue with Souray (before you bring it up again), but he bragged in Montreal on how proud he was that he played injured. Then when he comes to Edmonton, he complained that he was asked to play injured - hypocrite maybe? Or just trying to repair the damage his miscalculating mouth made when he didn't get his way. Tambo had the balls to not cave in to Souray and trade him off for squat (like Deano did with Smyth this year - same situation, but more balls on Tambo's part).
Is it just me or has this thread become "ball" obsessed?
IMO the reasons we are where we are is three fold. #1-Pronger, Spacek, Peca, Samsonov, etc. bailed at years end. #2-Lowe overpaid a vast number of guys which screwed us out of roster flexibility. #3-Management Tambo and Lowe included decided to tear it down and start from the ground up. That's my take.
#1 That's certainly a big part of the reason we regressed but it put us at the level we were pre lockout, and that was still a competitive roster. The team could have rebounded within a few years with better managment. However that's not exactly Lowe's fault when we look at why the players left. Pronger = Dbag, Spacek = wanted to go out east closer to Europe, Peca = wanted to play in his hometown, Samsanov = wanted to be overpayed.
#2. The only Lowe deal i can see as beig handicapping to the Oilers moving forward is the Horcoff deal, and even then that was a deal most of us were for (Thinks of Grabovski, Eat your heart out Leafs fans). We looked at the Smyth fiasco and said "we are willing to overpay a little to keep a great Oiler in copper and blue", plus he would have almost certainly got that on the open market. I think Oil fans forget the pressure on Lowe to do that deal after Smyth was moved, right or wrong it was generally accepted as a reasonable deal. I still think he's not as vastly ovepaid on some here suggest, he is easily worth 4 in my estimation(look at what Fisher returned Ottawa at that caphit). Perhaps i can't recall another bad deal but the relatively small overpays to role players such as Pisani, Moreau, Staios did not seem to be all that much of a hinderance. Is there a deal i'm forgetting?
#3 They most certainly did not decide to tear it down untill the first year we finished last (Tambos 2nd season in charge), in fact they believed the team to be of playoff caliber going into that year. This much i remember. They planned the rebuild after it was obvious the team stunk, not the team stunk because they planned to rebuild. The Hall pick is due to overwhelming incompetence and was not "planned".
He did a decent job, not a very good job. The best he did was signing Pronger, and we all know how well that turned out for us.
The response of mine was rediculous for a reason. I treat irrationality with irrationality. Lowe did a half decent job as far as trades, but left the backbone of the organization in shambles - no minor league team (Springfield doesn't count as they sucked that bad - and Lowe didn't suport them the way he should have IMO), and a ship severly listing in the water. Tambo had his hands full just trying to keep the damn thing afloat.
The Oiler culture that Lowe left in his wake was a disaster and had a horrible reputation - partly due to Lowe's bungling of Comrie and partly due to certain players in the lockeroom.
I think Tambo's done a good job of cleaning out the trash and ushering in a new culture for the Oil - less oppresive to the young guns.
Yes there was an issue with Souray (before you bring it up again), but he bragged in Montreal on how proud he was that he played injured. Then when he comes to Edmonton, he complained that he was asked to play injured - hypocrite maybe? Or just trying to repair the damage his miscalculating mouth made when he didn't get his way. Tambo had the balls to not cave in to Souray and trade him off for squat (like Deano did with Smyth this year - same situation, but more balls on Tambo's part).
Is it just me or has this thread become "ball" obsessed?
That there was Tambo dealing with Deano...
In acquiring him, that Pronger trade was one of the best deals made period. In moving him, Lupul didn't turn but that was hardly his fault he sure looked like a good player at the time and he does now too, Nash was a poor pick, but Smid sure did turn out and so did that pick that became Eberle. So even in dealing Pronger he did allright and that was not an envious position. GM's very rarely get full value for superstar players.
I don't think people on here remember life without Katz, the Oilers farm team was poor EIG didn't want to invest much in it. That's why it was even mothballed at times. Lowe was running the team on a tight budget, and up untill last season Tambo had done a poor job with the AHL affiliate too.
Lowe didn't do what he wanted with Comrie, EIG told him to ask for the money back. Lowe is a true Oiler he always puts the org. first. Good franchises like the Flyers find room for a Bobby Clarke for this same reason. Lowe stepped up to the GM job not feeling ready but did it out of "loyalty". It's as if nobody remembers the dark years...
Tambo had no choice but to usher in a new culture, the team sucked and it was under his tenure. Was he supposed to retain his team he mismanged to the point of worst place, or "change the culture" by getting different players so maybe the team could be less ******? He couldn't go with the status quo, changing the culture was inevetiable. Before Lowe left the GM job, the Oilers dressing room was considered one of the closest in the league.
I don't care to argue about Souray, i think both parties handled everything poorly. The fact is he brought up points that could hardly be considered isolated to him.
Is it me or do you try to add random pics and videos because your argument can't stand on merit? What compells you to do something like that, are you afraid of sticking to the crux of the debate or do "pretty pictures", and "cool vids" make you feel better?
BTW when you said he did a decent job i believe that would mean you agree with my assesment that Lowe = Mediocre. My whole point is that Lowe is clearly IMO the lesser of two evils, while i think Lowe has value to the org. still and did a respectable, and sometimes great job, Tambellini has been a complete and abject faliure.
In acquiring him, that Pronger trade was one of the best deals made period. In moving him, Lupul didn't turn but that was hardly his fault he sure looked like a good player at the time and he does now too, Nash was a poor pick, but Smid sure did turn out and so did that pick that became Eberle. So even in dealing Pronger he did allright and that was not an envious position. GM's very rarely get full value for superstar players.
I don't think people on here remember life without Katz, the Oilers farm team was poor EIG didn't want to invest much in it. That's why it was even mothballed at times. Lowe was running the team on a tight budget, and up untill last season Tambo had done a poor job with the AHL affiliate too.
Lowe didn't do what he wanted with Comrie, EIG told him to ask for the money back. Lowe is a true Oiler he always puts the org. first. Good franchises like the Flyers find room for a Bobby Clarke for this same reason. Lowe stepped up to the GM job not feeling ready but did it out of "loyalty". It's as if nobody remembers the dark years...
Tambo had no choice but to usher in a new culture, the team sucked and it was under his tenure. Was he supposed to retain his team he mismanged to the point of worst place, or "change the culture" by getting different players so maybe the team could be less ******? He couldn't go with the status quo, changing the culture was inevetiable. Before Lowe left the GM job, the Oilers dressing room was considered one of the closest in the league.
I don't care to argue about Souray, i think both parties handled everything poorly. The fact is he brought up points that could hardly be considered isolated to him.
Is it me or do you try to add random pics and videos because your argument can't stand on merit? What compells you to do something like that, are you afraid of sticking to the crux of the debate or do "pretty pictures", and "cool vids" make you feel better?
BTW when you said he did a decent job i believe that would mean you agree with my assesment that Lowe = Mediocre. My whole point is that Lowe is clearly IMO the lesser of two evils, while i think Lowe has value to the org. still and did a respectable, and sometimes great job, Tambellini has been a complete and abject faliure.
Naw, that's just you....I actually do stuff like that to add some levity to a situation. It's meant to remind uptight people to relax a bit and smile once in a while. My arguments stand by themselves IMO, and anytime i add something to them like that is just to put on a comic sans exclamation point at the end. If you don't like it...<shrugs> Oh well.
Nice of you to throw in those personal digs at me though...
This is the internets bro, get concurrent with it or be forever confused.
Oh, and i disagree and think Tambo has done a decent job so far (Lowe=mediocre does not = good). Tambo's ability to finally have a decent farm team that's helping to build a "winning" culture for our prospects is what pushes him above Lowe IMO. He's made his mistakes for sure, but what GM hasn't? His true test is upcoming during the draft and off season. Next year will be the push for the playoffs, but we still need key pieces to make it happen. My final judgement on Tambo will be decided on what he does in the next 6 months.
Oh, and i disagree and think Tambo has done a decent job so far (Lowe=mediocre does not = good). Tambo's ability to finally have a decent farm team that's helping to build a "winning" culture for our prospects is what pushes him above Lowe IMO.
Is there any actual correlation between a winning farm team and a successful NHL squad? I'm not sure there is as big a connection as people here seem to think.
Is there any actual correlation between a winning farm team and a successful NHL squad? I'm not sure there is as big a connection as people here seem to think.
There is if you want to build a winning culture from your prospects up - it's very important IMO.
Any successful club out there has a good farm team to bring up their prospects properly. Not only does it help with loyalty, but it also builds cohesion and comraderie. Plant the seeds now for future success so to speak. If they come from a winning atmosphere, the hope is that they will carry that into the big show.
You don't build a house by starting with the roof...
Naw, that's just you....I actually do stuff like that to add some levity to a situation. It's meant to remind uptight people to relax a bit and smile once in a while. My arguments stand by themselves IMO, and anytime i add something to them like that is just to put on a comic sans exclamation point at the end. If you don't like it...<shrugs> Oh well.
Nice of you to throw in those personal digs at me though...
This is the internets bro, get concurrent with it or be forever confused.
Oh, and i disagree and think Tambo has done a decent job so far (Lowe=mediocre does not = good). Tambo's ability to finally have a decent farm team that's helping to build a "winning" culture for our prospects is what pushes him above Lowe IMO. He's made his mistakes for sure, but what GM hasn't? His true test is upcoming during the draft and off season. Next year will be the push for the playoffs, but we still need key pieces to make it happen. My final judgement on Tambo will be decided on what he does in the next 6 months.
Actually the pictures you post are ignorant and insulting. Comparing me and others to a dog is an insult. Posting pictues that questions people's intelligence are not adding levity, it's just ignorant. I certainly never expressed in refrence to your latest "pretty picture", that the act of posting ignorant images made your argument invalid. So again i will credit you with another straw man.
Rollie's most career high in games was 50 at that point, he was 19th in save % based on his save % in Minny which later took a hit when he came here. He had inferior stats to Manny Fernandez on the same team as well. We gave up a 1st and a conditional pick IIRC, had we gotten bounced in the 1st round that would've been a really *****y trade.
Whatever. It was an awesome trade. To suggest otherwise isnt very "smart".
If its & buts were candy & nuts every day would be Christmas
There is if you want to build a winning culture from your prospects up - it's very important IMO.
Any successful club out there has a good farm team to bring up their prospects properly. Not only does it help with loyalty, but it also builds cohesion and comraderie. Plant the seeds now for future success so to speak. If they come from a winning atmosphere, the hope is that they will carry that into the big show.
You don't build a house by starting with the roof...
Is there any actual correlation between a winning farm team and a successful NHL squad? I'm not sure there is as big a connection as people here seem to think.
Ottawa and Binghamton is probably the most recent example.
It depends on the strengths of the AHL team, I would say, though. For instance, a team like the Chicago Wolves weren't going to make the Thrashers better because it was run like an NHL team. They had lots of AHL veterans. A team like Binghampton, that was made of mostly NHL prospects, however, probably would.
#1 That's certainly a big part of the reason we regressed but it put us at the level we were pre lockout, and that was still a competitive roster. The team could have rebounded within a few years with better managment. However that's not exactly Lowe's fault when we look at why the players left. Pronger = Dbag, Spacek = wanted to go out east closer to Europe, Peca = wanted to play in his hometown, Samsanov = wanted to be overpayed.
Meanwhile guys that we relied upon heavily pre-lockout were never as good again or were as good only for a fraction of the time since. Moreau, Staios, Smith, Pisani, Horcoff, etc. all fit this bill.
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#2. The only Lowe deal i can see as beig handicapping to the Oilers moving forward is the Horcoff deal, and even then that was a deal most of us were for (Thinks of Grabovski, Eat your heart out Leafs fans). We looked at the Smyth fiasco and said "we are willing to overpay a little to keep a great Oiler in copper and blue", plus he would have almost certainly got that on the open market. I think Oil fans forget the pressure on Lowe to do that deal after Smyth was moved, right or wrong it was generally accepted as a reasonable deal. I still think he's not as vastly ovepaid on some here suggest, he is easily worth 4 in my estimation(look at what Fisher returned Ottawa at that caphit). Perhaps i can't recall another bad deal but the relatively small overpays to role players such as Pisani, Moreau, Staios did not seem to be all that much of a hinderance. Is there a deal i'm forgetting?
We were talking a significant chunk of change ties up into our 3rd line/bottom 4 D and in a guy that played like a 3rd liner for much of his last contract in Horcoff. None of these role players were movable at their price and term. Souray and his injury history made his deal a big risk as well.
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#3 They most certainly did not decide to tear it down untill the first year we finished last (Tambos 2nd season in charge), in fact they believed the team to be of playoff caliber going into that year. This much i remember. They planned the rebuild after it was obvious the team stunk, not the team stunk because they planned to rebuild. The Hall pick is due to overwhelming incompetence and was not "planned".
They clearly decided at the trade deadline to tear it down. Prior to that I can't tell you if it was ownership, management, or both that tried to be competitive by going whale hunting. Regardless of why we got to where we were/are it takes brains to go with something instead of continuing to fight it (like Calgary is right now) and ultimately hurting your team.
Actually the pictures you post are ignorant and insulting. Comparing me and others to a dog is an insult. Posting pictues that questions people's intelligence are not adding levity, it's just ignorant. I certainly never expressed in refrence to your latest "pretty picture", that the act of posting ignorant images made your argument invalid. So again i will credit you with another straw man.
??? Seriously??? I put that video there of a dog having hundreds of balls dropped due to everyone talking about whether Lowe or Tambo had more balls...then specifically said "that there is Tambo dealing with Deano" - implying that Tambo had a lot of balls...in dealing with Deano. How the holy hell is that comparing you to a dog?
If you are offended by a few internet memes, then maybe you should take a break from forums and even the internet for a bit. If you have comprehension problems with internet memes, then here's some help:
Tell you what...once you can see past the "pretty pictures" and actually read what i'm posting, then i'll take you seriously. Comparing you to a dog?? Jeeebuss....
Whatever. It was an awesome trade. To suggest otherwise isnt very "smart".
If its & buts were candy & nuts every day would be Christmas
Did I say that it wasn't awesome and that it didn't end up great? I said that it could've ended badly and it wasn't as big of a slam dunk at the time of the trade as you are making it out to be, I'd figure that someone throwing around terms like "smart" could differentiate the two.
Did I say that it wasn't awesome and that it didn't end up great? I said that it could've ended badly and it wasn't as big of a slam dunk at the time of the trade as you are making it out to be, I'd figure that someone throwing around terms like "smart" could differentiate the two.
Any trasde can turn out badly. It was a risk, but a needed one (btw, where did I say it was a slam dunk). They had a very good team & were just short a goalie. All sorts of people whined about though.
But then again, that always happens.
Ottawa and Binghamton is probably the most recent example.
It depends on the strengths of the AHL team, I would say, though. For instance, a team like the Chicago Wolves weren't going to make the Thrashers better because it was run like an NHL team. They had lots of AHL veterans. A team like Binghampton, that was made of mostly NHL prospects, however, probably would.
You guys kill me - you're actually sitting here discussing the merits of a man that, since he ascended into management of the team @ the turn of the millennium, has "guided" said team to a grand total of 3 playoff appearances, 2 DFL's & a next- to-DFL this year, & almost single-handedly has sullied the organization's reputation around the league with his delusions of grandeur. What merits could there possibly be? The only reason he's the gm is because all the good ones will actually be occupied with the playoffs. Some of you guys might not know what that word means - it's when a team is somewhat mediocre & gets to play more than 82 games in a season...
What's next? Awarding Patrick Laforge the executive of the year award?
I think you've got that wrong actually. Tambo had to come in and fix the ****show that Lowe left him with. Personally, i'd give Tambo a C+/B- type grade for what he's done so far.
I think you have it wrong... or rather, you must be too young to remember the ****show that Lowe had to correct that was Sather's doing.
Lowe inherited a head scout who spent his winters sunning on the beach.
Lowe came in with an articulated 5 year plan built to sustain a competiive team until the new CBA, and compete for a championship thereafter. He executed against it and came within a game of the Stanley Cup.
The Pronger thing was such a huge blow that it required a new plan. Lowe lived in the past for a year, but then.... my theory... realized he'd put in too much energy to be able to commit himself to ANOTHER 5 year plan (cuz that's what it would take when your best return for Pronger is Smid, Lupul, Schremp and Eberle). And who can blame him? Wouldn't you refuse to admit your window was closed?
Once he realized that, he hired a guy who would have the energy (same he'd previously had) for a new 5 year plan.
There are some brutal trades that Lowe was responsible for, especially when trading for young pros (blame the pro scouts)... but there are some absolute steals when trading for more established guys (Pronger, Spacek, Roloson, Samsonov, Tarnstrom... and I liked the Cole trade at the time, too bad he pouted his way back to Carolina).
Anyway... he'll always get a passing grade from me. He built a good ship. He left the ship with some bad rowers that Tambo had to systematically throw overboard... but the hull was stronger than what Lowe inherited.
Anyway... he'll always get a passing grade from me. He built a good ship. He left the ship with some bad rowers that Tambo had to systematically throw overboard... but the hull was stronger than what Lowe inherited.
Credit where credit is due, I say.
Cant agree with that. The team Lowe inherited had some good players on it.
Doug Weight, Ryan Smyth, Mike Grier, Bill Guerin, Mike Comrie, Shawn Horcoff, Todd Marchant, Ethan Moreau, Janne Niinima, Jason Smith, Tom Poti, Eric Brewer, and Tommy Salo. All were at least decent pieces that fit an NHL roster.
Starting with that lineup Lowe managed to take the team to the playoffs 3 times in 7 seasons as GM. Of course he's still part of the management team so he's at least partially responsible for what happened after and the replacement that he picked to take his place.
So what did Lowe leave for Tambellini to work with? I'd say much lesser pieces then he had in a lot of cases the older worn out shells of the players that had been left to him like Moreau.
Ales Hemsky would be the bright spot but he's no Doug Weight, probably not even a Bill Guerin or Ryan Smyth considering the amount of time and the scarce number of points he's put up while Tambellini has been here. The defence he was left was pretty bad. Sure they had some offensive upside and puck moving ability but they were bad in their own end. Souray's reputation in Montreal was deserved, he had a shot and could play phsyical but was lost in his own end. Vishnovsky was a puck mover who gave up as much as he created, Gilbert and Grebeshkov were young and inexperienced and Grebeshkov was ready to leave for Russia when nobody in the NHL would pay him like an elite talent that he clearly wasnt. Rollie in net was coming down from that big high of the 2006 playoffs.
Lowe left the team in worse shape then when he got it. The excuse that a lot of the blame lies with the EIG not being able to adequately fund an NHL team may apply to some of Lowe's mistakes but if they excuse what he did that brought the team down then it's holds the same for Tambellini.
Seriously??? I put that video there of a dog having hundreds of balls dropped due to everyone talking about whether Lowe or Tambo had more balls...then specifically said "that there is Tambo dealing with Deano" - implying that Tambo had a lot of balls...in dealing with Deano. How the holy hell is that comparing you to a dog? 
