Well him and Paul Stastny were in a very serious bromance. Getting separated when they were so close has really messed with both of their heads...staz has just gotten out of his funk after the new year...
So this is just one fans theory, but I feel like right after the trade Stewie had that "**** you colorado, I'm gunna make you want me back. So hard" focus that lead to his success after the trade. But this offseason he got over it, realized there was nothing he could do get Paul back and just hasn't developed that man-love for anyone on the Blues roster, thus his protective instincts to beat the ever loving piss out of anyone that threatens his Bromantic Interest, wouldn't be kicking in...
Hey, it makes sense in my head and gives some explanation for how awful Staz was during the 2011 calendar year and how cold and disengaged MBP has been this season.
I think you might be on to something.
I've notice that Stewart is finally starting to develop a bit of chemistry with Arnott, perhaps even a little bit of a bromance. I just wish he would develop that same relationship he had with Statsny with someone like Perron or McDonald.
You're ignoring fact that Johnson plays more difficult minutes with worse defensive forwards in front of him and a worse D-partner defensively. Plus, Shatty is good for at least one ugly turnover per game. He isn't a liability, of course, but he's hardly the defensive stud that EJ has been.
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not placing so much emphasis on who plays "tougher minutes". That sounds like a free pass under the excuse umbrella to me. You're suggesting that there is a significant gap between EJ and Shattenkirk defensively. This is based on what exactly? That he plays "tougher minutes"? You're going to need to do a little better than that considering I've seen both play quite a bit, both before and after the trade. In fact, I don't see any visual evidence that EJ is better defensively. Care to make a case if you're so certain?
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not placing so much emphasis on who plays "tougher minutes". That sounds like a free pass under the excuse umbrella to me. You're suggesting that there is a significant gap between EJ and Shattenkirk defensively. This is based on what exactly? That he plays "tougher minutes"? You're going to need to do a little better than that considering I've seen both play quite a bit, both before and after the trade. In fact, I don't see any visual evidence that EJ is better defensively. Care to make a case if you're so certain?
If you won't accept my numbers case, you'll accept my "visual evidence" case? I watch lots of Blues games and Avs games (they're my two favorite non-Shark WC teams) and I see it with my own eyes. Shatty is prone to turnovers, and he consistently faces third and fourth line players who don't have the hands or vision to even test Shatty very hard defensively. Shatty's a good skater, but that's all he has on EJ defensively. EJ is more imposing, better at snuffing people out on the boards, and has better anticipation, especially recently. He has a longer reach, which helps him disrupt stick-handlers much better than Shatty.
If you won't accept my numbers case, you'll accept my "visual evidence" case? I watch lots of Blues games and Avs games (they're my two favorite non-Shark WC teams) and I see it with my own eyes. Shatty is prone to turnovers, and he consistently faces third and fourth line players who don't have the hands or vision to even test Shatty very hard defensively. Shatty's a good skater, but that's all he has on EJ defensively. EJ is more imposing, better at snuffing people out on the boards, and has better anticipation, especially recently. He has a longer reach, which helps him disrupt stick-handlers much better than Shatty.
well according to behindthenet.ca, Shattenkirk has a higher quality of competition than Johnson...
well according to behindthenet.ca, Shattenkirk has a higher quality of competition than Johnson...
I hope you aren't looking at QoC. QoC is based purely on +/-, which we can all agree is a mostly rubbish stat. You should be looking at QoC Rel Corsi, which uses Corsi and is much, much, MUCH more accurate than +/-.
Voted Avs because the trade was pretty awesome for them and because I'm a homer but both teams "won" it imo. I'm sure both teams would do the trade again and again.
Voted even. Teams just swapped their strengths for weaknesses. People saying Shattenkirk is a better pure defense man then EJ are out their minds lol. Let's see how good Shatty would look with Hejda, not Alex Pietrangelo and Colaiacavo, as his partners.
who cares what the difference between siemens and rattie is. At the time of the trade it was 1st for 2nd
if rattie turns out better than siemens then the avs just messed up the draft not the trade. Not to mention so did most of the rest of the league for not taking rattie in the first round...
1st>>2nd
who cares what the difference between siemens and rattie is. At the time of the trade it was 1st for 2nd
if rattie turns out better than siemens then the avs just messed up the draft not the trade. Not to mention so did most of the rest of the league for not taking rattie in the first round...
1st>>2nd
The point was that they are irrelevant since neither one has played a game in the NHL
The point was that they are irrelevant since neither one has played a game in the NHL
The players themselves are irrelevant, but not the value. Thats like saying if you trade a 1st liner and a 7th for a 4th liner and a 1st round pick the first round pick is irrelevant. Yes its irrelevant when comparing the effects right now, but ultimately when talking about who won a trade now you look at the value of draft picks and the impact of the players.
Even if in the above example you pick a Datsyuk in the 7th round the fact is that the value was that of a 7th round pick. What you did with that pick is what creates value for you. Just like if you picked Hugh Jessiman in the first round. The value of the pick is still high your scouting staff just sucks.
Its the same flawed logic as saying Colorado traded a fourth round pick for Winnik then Winnik for Mcginn so we basically traded a fourth round pick for Mcginn. They don't go together. Its good asset management if you buy low and sell high, but the value at the time of the trade is stagnant and always will be in terms of an unknown commodity like a draft pick. A player with potential like Johnson or Shattenkirk is different because you know what you have and you should not what potential they have.
And Silent Jay is getting sold short in this thread. He may not have the "potential" Stewart has, but they aren't in the same league defensively/effort wise and Jay has 10 less points as our 3-4 line center.
If you won't accept my numbers case, you'll accept my "visual evidence" case? I watch lots of Blues games and Avs games (they're my two favorite non-Shark WC teams) and I see it with my own eyes. Shatty is prone to turnovers, and he consistently faces third and fourth line players who don't have the hands or vision to even test Shatty very hard defensively. Shatty's a good skater, but that's all he has on EJ defensively. EJ is more imposing, better at snuffing people out on the boards, and has better anticipation, especially recently. He has a longer reach, which helps him disrupt stick-handlers much better than Shatty.
Shattenkirk wins more puck battles than any other Blues defender including Pietrangelo, Jackman and Polak. He also strips the puck more consistently than anyone including Oshie. And he does so against EVERYONE, not just the 3rd and 4th liners you're claiming.
I laugh contemptuously at your suggestion that his anticipation is better than Shattenkirks. Shattenkirk is considerably smarter than EJ. Other than physical traits like size,skating and longer reach(which btw doesn't neccessarily translate to better defensive stick work OR more effective defensive play), I'm not seeing any clear advantage for EJ here especially in positioning and intelligence. Shattenkirks defensive stickwork is excellent and has been all season long, so EJ would have to have been dominant all season long to best him here and he just flat out hasn't.
I think you give EJ a free pass based on his "tougher minutes" while selling Shatty way short based on his minutes. Again, I think you're placing a bit too much emphasis on "tougher minutes". The fact that you would accept Backes as a Selke candidate over Datsyuk because he plays in more defensive situations is something that I'll admit to having a hard time with. Personally, I think Datsyuk is the superior defensive player whether he's in more defensive situations or not. His reads and ability to strip pucks make Backes look like a junior player(no disrespect to Backes who is the very definition of will and determination). It's simply a difference in smart stickwork combined with superior reads(greater intelligence). In the case of EJ vs. Shatty defensively, +/- accurately reflects what I'm seeing with my own eyes while watching these two players. Shattenkirk is making a higher % of smart plays in all zones and EJ is pretty average in this regard.
This past offseason you and I had a discussion regarding Pietrangelo and I felt you sold him way short defensively to the tune of being flat out wrong. I think you're doing the exact same thing here with Shattenkirk, while pumping the tires of a guy who has largely been an average defender at best.
Voted even. Teams just swapped their strengths for weaknesses. People saying Shattenkirk is a better pure defense man then EJ are out their minds lol. Let's see how good Shatty would look with Hejda, not Alex Pietrangelo and Colaiacavo, as his partners.
Umm...he's played with Jackman basically the entire year.
Shattenkirk, already one of the best young offensive defenseman in the league and becoming better every day on his side of the red line, is by far the best player in the deal as of March 8th, 2012.
Frankly, that's all the matters if you're asking who won the trade as of now.
Also, i'd be willing to bet their are more Avs fans on this board than Blues fans, so most likely it's the neutral sides saying the Blues won.
That being said, it was a good trade for both teams, hard to say either team won (though I voted Blues because I AM a homer)
Why is that? If you have read any of my posts in this thread I have been saying wait and see.
How do you know how many Avalanche fans are on this board? There sure aren't a whole heck of a lot posting in any of our threads or GDTs, maybe 30ish (and that's being generous).
Why is that? If you have read any of my posts in this thread I have been saying wait and see.
How do you know how many Avalanche fans are on this board? There sure aren't a whole heck of a lot posting in any of our threads or GDTs, maybe 30ish (and that's being generous).
We don't have a whole lot of posters on this site either. Safe to assume there are quite a few neutral voters on this poll. I think the majority of the rational people here agree that it is close, and will have to wait a few years. Both fanbases are happy with their return, so both teams won IMO.
Shattenkirk wins more puck battles than any other Blues defender including Pietrangelo, Jackman and Polak. He also strips the puck more consistently than anyone including Oshie. And he does so against EVERYONE, not just the 3rd and 4th liners you're claiming.
I laugh contemptuously at your suggestion that his anticipation is better than Shattenkirks. Shattenkirk is considerably smarter than EJ. Other than physical traits like size,skating and longer reach(which btw doesn't neccessarily translate to better defensive stick work OR more effective defensive play), I'm not seeing any clear advantage for EJ here especially in positioning and intelligence. Shattenkirks defensive stickwork is excellent and has been all season long, so EJ would have to have been dominant all season long to best him here and he just flat out hasn't.
I think you give EJ a free pass based on his "tougher minutes" while selling Shatty way short based on his minutes. Again, I think you're placing a bit too much emphasis on "tougher minutes". The fact that you would accept Backes as a Selke candidate over Datsyuk because he plays in more defensive situations is something that I'll admit to having a hard time with. Personally, I think Datsyuk is the superior defensive player whether he's in more defensive situations or not. His reads and ability to strip pucks make Backes look like a junior player(no disrespect to Backes who is the very definition of will and determination). It's simply a difference in smart stickwork combined with superior reads(greater intelligence). In the case of EJ vs. Shatty defensively, +/- accurately reflects what I'm seeing with my own eyes while watching these two players. Shattenkirk is making a higher % of smart plays in all zones and EJ is pretty average in this regard.
This past offseason you and I had a discussion regarding Pietrangelo and I felt you sold him way short defensively to the tune of being flat out wrong. I think you're doing the exact same thing here with Shattenkirk, while pumping the tires of a guy who has largely been an average defender at best.
In what universe has EJ been anything less than damn good this year? Much less average at best?
Seriously, I'd be pretty pissed if I were an Avs or Blues fan.
