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Bob McKenzie's Top 30 for 2001

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Old
11-10-2004, 12:53 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
Give me ten.
Kovalchuk, Spezza, Weiss, Chistov, Komisarek, Ruutu, Hamhuis, Hemsky, Colaiacovo, Woywitka, Umberger, Krajicek, Gleason, Perezhogin, Tyutin, Lynch, Goc, Morrisonn, Grigorenko, Svitov, etc. There's twenty and I'm sure I could find plenty more if I spent a couple minutes to do so.

Sjostrom really is nothing special, IMO. I saw quite a few Coyotes games last year and Sjostrom never stood out to me, although a player of his style should have on a team with such little forward depth. Thirteen points in 57 games for a skilled player on a weak team is a big disappointment to me, not a "good season." I see him on the same level as a guy like Radivojevic, an above average third liner on a good team, while an average/below average second liner on a bad team. Sjostrom could be better than that, but I personally don't see it happening.

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11-10-2004, 01:05 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
Done nothing? Did you not see him play at all last year? He has shown glimpses into how good he will be. No, he hasn't played a full NHL season but he has definitely shown enough to be top 10.

I am not going to say he's a top ten now. Sure, he played well in his stint with the Rangers last spring. But he still hasn't played a full season. So, let's just say he's played himself into a first rounder at this point.

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11-10-2004, 01:17 AM
  #28
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This Just goes to show you how much of a crapshoot drafting is.... I took a glance at the entire draft and many names caught my eye...the biggest one being Zidlicky (6th round i believe)..other notables grigorenko, Ehrhoff , plekanec , derek Roy, cammaleri, surovy, poloushin, just to name a few...other than a few blue chippers... good players will come from just about any round

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11-10-2004, 01:38 AM
  #29
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Zidlicky was an over-ager. If that matters at all.

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11-10-2004, 01:50 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
You would take thirty guys ahead of Sjostrom? Which thirty?
Just to be clear, I never meant to implied Sjostrom should be out of the first round (I don't think I could list 30 players although I may try later just for fun). Leafaholix was listing players that should be lower on McKenzie's list and I added one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
I can't even get to ten.
Well, sucks for you.

Probably because you can't count that far.

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11-10-2004, 03:36 AM
  #31
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Hey, he wasn't far off, compared to the actual 1st round selections of 2001, though.

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11-10-2004, 04:00 AM
  #32
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Sjostrom's numbers in the NHL actually match up very closely to Hemsky's taking age and minutes played per game into account.

One plays for a Canadian team and is hyped through the roof. The other plays for Phoenix.

I'm not sure if he'll be the 7th best player (hell who can be sure?) but he's going to be a good one... closer to a Jere Lehtinen than a Branko Radivojevic.

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11-10-2004, 05:10 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Well, sucks for you.

Probably because you can't count that far.
Ouch.


Stevex:

When breaking down points per minute for this last season, Hemsky's production was nearly double that of Sjostrom's. Compare rookie seasons and Hemsky's production was far more than double Sjostrom's when breaking it down by their time on ice. And if you want to bring age into the discussion you're not helping Sjostrom much, as he's older than Hemsky.

Lehtinen has put up big numbers in Finland and in the NHL, while Sjostrom has only put up some above average numbers in the WHL. I don't see Sjostrom having the offense (Lehtinen would have much better numbers if not for sacrificing much of his talent by being so committed to defense) or the stifling defense to be nearly as good as Lehtinen. Radivojevic has put up better numbers than Sjostrom in juniors, the AHL, and the NHL, so I highly doubt the difference between the two is as big as your comparison makes it sound. In 28 career AHL games, Sjostrom only has 1 goal and 8 assists. That hardly makes me want to take him over many players in his draft class, let alone in the top 10. It's still early, but I'm skeptical of a skill player that I've been unimpressed with on numerous occasions and one that hasn't put up numbers anywhere but the WHL.

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11-10-2004, 06:10 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Sjostrom's numbers in the NHL actually match up very closely to Hemsky's taking age and minutes played per game into account.
They're not really comparable players. That being said, I don't find the numbers that comparable. Hemsky's are better. And he is dripping with offensive potential and creativity no matter what the numbers look, while Sjostrom looks bland in that area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
One plays for a Canadian team and is hyped through the roof. The other plays for Phoenix.
I don't think it has much to do with Canadian conspiracies or other silly stuff. It has much more to do with people getting overexcited when a player jumps early to the NHL, which Hemsky did. Same with Kyle McLaren, a big doofus that had half of Boston deluded into thinking he was going to win a string of Norris back in the days.

Sjostrom had a slower, classic progress. He's also a less flashy player. Doesn't mean he won't have the better career a decade from now, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
I'm not sure if he'll be the 7th best player (hell who can be sure?) but he's going to be a good one... closer to a Jere Lehtinen than a Branko Radivojevic.
He's got some work to do to be close to Lehtinen but I guess this is possible. I like the tools. I was a little disappointed last year when I saw him. He was applying himself, skating well and getting where he needed to be but he didn't seem smart on the ice.

I guess that's why people don't really harp on him like they do with Hemsky. Players like Sjostrom depend on their ability to adapt to the team and persevere. On his talent alone, he's similar to guys like Michal Sivek and Martin Samuelsson. All players that I like a lot but all on the bubble.

I don't think Hemsky is necessarly a much better prospect but his pure talent means he'll have more chances because guys like Hemsky just don't come very often.

If I had to choose between Hemsky and Sjostrom, I'd think carefully. I think it might boil down to needs. If I had to really choose between the two based on talent alone, I'd have to gamble on Hemsky. But it's fair to say someone who would pick Sjostrom might well turn out to be right.

I don't think Sjostrom developed quite as the Coyotes hoped. There was some possibility that he was going to get much better than that and that's why they traded up. I was hoping he'd be more aware on the ice and use linemates better. Maybe I didn't watch him in his better games.

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Old
11-10-2004, 06:24 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
You would take thirty guys ahead of Sjostrom? Which thirty?

I can't even get to ten.
You have forgotten some very good points these people always have...

It is very essential that Sjöström is swedish, and he can´t therefor possibly be ahead of the finns on that list. Because ive heard and read on these boards that the swedes sucks. So the finns must be better, cause ive read they rock.
So Sjöström shouldn´t probably even be top 50 on this list. Him playing solid in Phoenix is bad because thats an american team and plenty of other players are on canadian teams, so they should also be ahead of Sjöström...


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Old
11-10-2004, 06:35 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
They're not really comparable players. That being said, I don't find the numbers that comparable. Hemsky's are better. And he is dripping with offensive potential and creativity no matter what the numbers look, while Sjostrom looks bland in that area.
Agreed.. very different players. Where Sjostrom is similar is that he had 7 goals in his first 57 games while Hemsky had 6 in his first 59. They've been used differently as well.. Sjostrom has been moved all over the place but mostly in a defensive or energy line role with no powerplay time whereas Hemsky has been given offensive responsibility.

Quote:
I don't think it has much to do with Canadian conspiracies or other silly stuff.
You're probably right about it being partly to do with jumping early. I was not referring to a "conspiracy". What I was referring to was that the majority of posters on here are either Canadian or support a Canadian team. A player on that will attract far more attention and hype because of that. The Comrie / Briere comparision is a perfect example of the differing hype.

Quote:
He's got some work to do to be close to Lehtinen but I guess this is possible. I like the tools. I was a little disappointed last year when I saw him. He was applying himself, skating well and getting where he needed to be but he didn't seem smart on the ice.

If I had to choose between Hemsky and Sjostrom, I'd think carefully. I think it might boil down to needs. If I had to really choose between the two based on talent alone, I'd have to gamble on Hemsky. But it's fair to say someone who would pick Sjostrom might well turn out to be right.

I don't think Sjostrom developed quite as the Coyotes hoped. There was some possibility that he was going to get much better than that and that's why they traded up. I was hoping he'd be more aware on the ice and use linemates better. Maybe I didn't watch him in his better games.
Erm.. these guys are barely starting out.. there is plenty more development to come but it sounds as if these are old guys you are talking about. The Coyotes and fans are pretty happy with Sjostrom, not to speak for everyone but I think most prefer him thus far to the touted popular pick at the time which had Kobasew joining Kolanos.

Hemsky is clearly more talented I think, but Sjostrom is developing into a valuable player.. he has the ability and flexibility to play in any given situation at a high level which is what marks guys like Lehtinen out from third liners. I am biased I admit but I always love guys who can play a complete game, with offensive talent, defensive awareness, guts and character, hit and fight.

Back on topic, I think there's a group of 10-15 guys that are really hard to put in a definite order after the top 5 or so. Its easier to group them instead.


Last edited by Gwyddbwyll: 11-10-2004 at 06:39 AM.
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Old
11-10-2004, 06:53 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltalk
Kovalchuk, Spezza, Weiss, Blackburn, Komisarek, Ruutu, Hamhuis, Hemsky, Woywitka, Gleason...... and many more IMO.
you can throw in Chistov based on his rookie season and contributing to a western conference championship...obviously he has taken a bit of a step back in the last year...

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11-10-2004, 01:48 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
Zidlicky was an over-ager. If that matters at all.
actually it does matter... tell me i can draft an over ager that can play right now at an age of 26 and play very effectively or i can draft an 18 year old and he will need 5 years anyways from being effective and its a BIg IF , weather he will reach that potential..well its a no brainer who I would take, actually many here on HF weer talking about him before the draft...and i thought he should have gone late 1st or early second.....In essense if you were drafting and i told you theres a Rafalski clone out there and its more or leass gauranteed...where would you take him? ...if you get him in the 6th round...over ager or not its a steal.

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11-10-2004, 03:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Hutz
Disagree, Armstrong is progressing OK in the AHL, and I expect to make and contribute in the NHL - he has not been rushed. There are guys in that first round I would still take him over.
These are just some of the guys that would go ahead of Armstrong...

Ilja Kovalchuk
Jason Spezza
Stephen Weiss
Alexander Svitov
Stanislav Chistov
Mike Komisarek
Pascal Leclaire
Tuomo Ruutu
Dan Blackburn
Fredrik Sjostrom
Dan Hamhuis
Ales Hemsky
Chuck Kobasew
Mikko Koivu
Carlo Colaiacovo
Tim Gleason
Lukas Krajicek
Alexander Perezhogin
Jeff Woywitka
Jason Bacashihua
Derek Roy
Timofei Shishkanov
Fedor Tjutin
Doug Lynch
Mike Cammalleri
Igor Grigorenko
Ray Emery
Christian Ehrhoff

It's obvious that drops him out of the first round.

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Old
11-10-2004, 05:28 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
Hey, he wasn't far off, compared to the actual 1st round selections of 2001, though.
Just to clarify, when I put together lists like this one before the draft I am not attempting to project who I think is necessarily going to be the best prospect, I am taking a consensus of scouts' opinion to determine where they rate the player and think the player will be selected in the draft. In other words, it's not like a scouting service as much it a preview of who is likely to be drafted in specific ranges of the draft. It's quantifying the draft before it happens as opposed to qualifying it, if that makes sense. It's a totally impersonal system, which is the exact opposite of services like Red Line or ISS or whomever that is actually evaluating the players and making subjective calls on them. I don't speak for THN any more but I believe THN is doing the same exercise as me with its Draft Preview. At least that's how I did it when I started it. It is kind of funny, though, to go back over the years and look at the highlights...and lowlights, too.

Bob McKenzie
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11-10-2004, 05:55 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
These are just some of the guys that would go ahead of Armstrong...

Ilja Kovalchuk
Jason Spezza
Stephen Weiss
Alexander Svitov
Stanislav Chistov
Mike Komisarek
Pascal Leclaire
Tuomo Ruutu
Dan Blackburn
Fredrik Sjostrom
Dan Hamhuis
Ales Hemsky
Chuck Kobasew
Mikko Koivu
Carlo Colaiacovo
Tim Gleason
Lukas Krajicek
Alexander Perezhogin
Jeff Woywitka
Jason Bacashihua
Derek Roy
Timofei Shishkanov
Fedor Tjutin
Doug Lynch
Mike Cammalleri
Igor Grigorenko
Ray Emery
Christian Ehrhoff

It's obvious that drops him out of the first round.
That's not what he said though. He said there were those taken if the first round who he would still take Armstrong over; not throughout the draft.

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11-10-2004, 07:55 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
That's not what he said though. He said there were those taken if the first round who he would still take Armstrong over; not throughout the draft.
That wouldn't make sense, because I think he disagrees with me having Armstrong out of the 1st round... not Bob's rankings.

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11-10-2004, 08:28 PM
  #43
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I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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11-10-2004, 10:36 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMckenzie
It is kind of funny, though, to go back over the years and look at the highlights...and lowlights, too.

Bob McKenzie
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care to give us a current top 30 for the 2001 draft class?

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Old
11-10-2004, 11:32 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMckenzie
It's a totally impersonal system, which is the exact opposite of services like Red Line or ISS or whomever that is actually evaluating the players and making subjective calls on them. I don't speak for THN any more but I believe THN is doing the same exercise as me with its Draft Preview.
I'm pretty sure THN does the same thing as Redline and ISS: Rank the players in the order they would draft them, not in the order they expect them to go in.

Did I really just correct Bob McKenzie!?

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Old
11-10-2004, 11:39 PM
  #46
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Why would Armstrong be out of the first round? It's not like this is a stellar draft class. He'll be a valuable player for an NHL team in a couple of years. He should have gotten a shot by now. I think the Pens just didn't want to pay him an NHL salary, cheap buggers.

I agree Steckel and Karlsson should be, because they've done garbage.

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11-10-2004, 11:48 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
Why would Armstrong be out of the first round? It's not like this is a stellar draft class. He'll be a valuable player for an NHL team in a couple of years. He should have gotten a shot by now. I think the Pens just didn't want to pay him an NHL salary, cheap buggers.

I agree Steckel and Karlsson should be, because they've done garbage.
Because it's not a hard task to find atleast 11 guys in that draft that should bump Armstrong out of the top 30.

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11-11-2004, 01:52 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
You would take thirty guys ahead of Sjostrom? Which thirty?

I can't even get to ten.
30 MIGHT be a bit of a stretch but putting him in the top 10 of that year is much more of a stretch. I dont know if you are a Yotes fan or not, but if you are, that may be affecting your view on him because it is quite easy to select 10 in front of him and is an exaggeration to make that statement.

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11-11-2004, 02:18 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Hutz
Disagree, Armstrong is progressing OK in the AHL, and I expect to make and contribute in the NHL - he has not been rushed. There are guys in that first round I would still take him over.
I disagree with this as well. Armstrong has done very little in the AHL, has still yet to bulk up and in no way deserves to be in the first round of that draft, let alone move up 2 slots as McKenzie did with him.
I dont know where you think he is progressing because he has been nothing but stagnant since he turned pro. He definatly still has time before he is considered a bust, but he certainly hasnt improved enough to remain a first rounder. I could name 35 guys at least I'd take over him.

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11-11-2004, 02:25 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
Why would Armstrong be out of the first round? It's not like this is a stellar draft class. He'll be a valuable player for an NHL team in a couple of years. He should have gotten a shot by now. I think the Pens just didn't want to pay him an NHL salary, cheap buggers.

I agree Steckel and Karlsson should be, because they've done garbage.
Then you should get more informed if that is the reason you think Armstrong didnt make the big club last year. That had nothing to do with it. His play had everything to do with it as he played poorly at times and was benched on occasion.
Not only that, but there were other guys who were better and more deserving of that shot due to thier play.
Armstrong stayed in the AHL not because of salary concerns, but because he didnt show enough (near enough) at any point of this season to earn a call up or to be given a look.

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