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Bob McKenzie's Top 30 for 2001

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Old
11-11-2004, 06:00 AM
  #51
Gwyddbwyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
30 MIGHT be a bit of a stretch but putting him in the top 10 of that year is much more of a stretch. I dont know if you are a Yotes fan or not, but if you are, that may be affecting your view on him because it is quite easy to select 10 in front of him and is an exaggeration to make that statement.
Sorry but you are wide of the mark with that statement. There arent ten guys you can state with absolute confidence are going to be better than Sjostrom and its not much of a stretch. To imply it would more likely be thirty guys is completely off the ball.. in any case I think Vlad was misunderstood - Vlad was saying Sjostrom would go lower than he was picked, not completely out of the first round.

IMO Kovalchuk, Spezza and Ruutu are certainties.
Hamhuis and Hemsky are probably next with good starts to their career.
Weiss, Chistov, Svitov.. and then its already getting hazy after only 8 guys.

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11-11-2004, 10:12 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Sorry but you are wide of the mark with that statement. There arent ten guys you can state with absolute confidence are going to be better than Sjostrom and its not much of a stretch. To imply it would more likely be thirty guys is completely off the ball.. in any case I think Vlad was misunderstood - Vlad was saying Sjostrom would go lower than he was picked, not completely out of the first round.

IMO Kovalchuk, Spezza and Ruutu are certainties.
Hamhuis and Hemsky are probably next with good starts to their career.
Weiss, Chistov, Svitov.. and then its already getting hazy after only 8 guys.
Maybe hazy in yours. Apparently virtually no one else.
Coincidentally enough, your a Yotes fan, right?

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11-11-2004, 10:15 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sammy
Maybe hazy in yours. Apparently virtually no one else.
Coincidentally enough, your a Yotes fan, right?
Correct. I stated this already if you actually took the time to read.

As for virtually everyone else, who appointed you their omniscient spokesperson?

I await a more substantial post from you about *hockey* rather than this cheap shot post.

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11-11-2004, 10:20 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Bob McKenzie's Top 30 for 2001 NHL Draft

1. Ilya Kovalchuk, LW, 6-2, 207, Spartak Moscow (Rus.)
2. Jason Spezza, C, 6-2, 214, Windsor (OHL)
3. Alexandre Svitov, C, 6-3, 193, Avangard Omsk (Rus.)
4. Stephen Weiss, C, 5-11, 178, Plymouth (OHL)
5. Stanislav Chistov, RW, 5-9, 169, Avangard Omsk (Rus.)
6. Dan Blackburn, G, 6-0, 180, Kootenay (WHL)
7. Fredrik Sjostrom, RW, 6-0, 194, Vastra Frolunda (Swe.)
8. Mike Komisarek, D, 6-4, 225, Univ. of Michigan (NCAA)
9. Mikko Koivu, C, 6-2, 183, TPS Turku (Fin.)
10. Pascal Leclaire, G, 6-1, 185, Montreal (QMJHL)
11. Tuomo Ruutu, C, 6-0, 191, Jokerit (Fin.)
12. Dan Hamhuis, D, 6-0, 195, Prince George (WHL)
13. Ales Hemsky, RW, 6-0, 170, Hull (QMJHL)
14. Chuck Kobasew, RW, 5-11, 195, Boston College (NCAA)
15. Igor Knyazev, D, 6-0, 191, Spartak Moscow (Rus.)
16. Carlo Colaiacovo, D, 6-1, 184, Erie (OHL)
17. Jeff Woywitka, D, 6-2, 197, Red Deer (WHL)
18. R. J. Umberger, C, 6-2, 200, Ohio State (NCAA)
19. Colby Armstrong, RW, 6-1, 180, Red Deer (WHL)
20. Jiri Novotny, C, 6-2, 194, Ceske Budejovice (Cze.)
21. Mark Popovic, D, 6-1, 194, St. Michael's (OHL)
22. Lukas Krajicek, D, 6-1, 183, Peterborough (OHL)
23. Tim Gleason, D, 6-0, 199, Windsor (OHL)
24. Alexander Perezhogin, LW, 5-11, 185, Avangard Omsk 2 (Rus.)
25. Fedor Tyutin, D, 6-3, 202, SKA St. Petersburg (Rus.)
26. Doug Lynch, D, 6-3, 205, Red Deer (WHL)
27. Alexander Polushin, RW, 6-3, 198, Tver/Dynamo 2 (Rus.)
28. David Steckel, C, 6-5, 200, Ohio State (NCAA)
29. Greg Watson, C, 6-1, 177, Prince Albert (WHL)
30. Jens Karlsson, RW, 6-3, 200, Vastra Frolunda (Swe.)


Interesting, goes to prove that even the best of the best can't tell the future of these prospects, unlike some Hab fans.

Pick who should be higher or lower...

Higher:

- Tuomo Ruutu - #2/3
- Dan Hamhuis - Top 5
- Fedor Tjutin - Top 10

Lower:

- Igor Knyazev - Out of 1st
- Jiri Novotny - Out of 1st
- RJ Umberger
- Colby Armstrong - Out of 1st
- Jens Karlsson - Out of 1st
- David Steckel - Out of 1st
Adding to your higher IMO Lukas Krajicek, around 15. He was a risk pick who if he panned out would be considered a lot higher as he supposedly had the most skills of all the dmen in the draft (offensivly). He panned out so far in the minors and was great in the NHL last year.

Lower: Greg Watson. When the panthers got him I was happy, but he sucks now.
Dan Blackburn. Montoya was drafted for NYR so his stock has dropped in the eyes of the Rangers. Yes, I know he has been hurt.

I would put Svitov towards 25. He has not panned out much at all so far. Basically, replace Ruutu with Svitov, then move Svitov down.

Popovic is good, but I don't know about 1rst round. I think where he was picked was reasonable.

Kobasew IMO would be late first round around like 23-30.

I would put Chistov around 10. Weiss, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Ruutu and Hamhuis or Komisarek or Hemsky for the top 5.

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11-11-2004, 10:31 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Correct. I stated this already if you actually took the time to read.

As for virtually everyone else, who appointed you their omniscient spokesperson?

I await a more substantial post from you about *hockey* rather than this cheap shot post.
You want substance then come back with a better argument than mine is "wide off the mark". You are stating that there is no way to prove my point right because you are suggesting it is subjective when your point in its entirity is subjective as well (and influenced by being a Yotes fan).
I stand by my original statement that your opinion was far more of a stretch than that of Vlad's, misunderstood or not. To suggest that you couldnt come up with ten players that you would select ahead of him in the draft is weak regardless of whether or not you agree.
As for your remark about someone being the omniscient spokesperson I find it remarkable that you ask for an argument of substance after posting this remark as it is easily uncalled for.
Everyone who has weighed in on the subject has not taken your stance. This is also a message board where people are allowed to post thier opinions and point out the written opinions of others. He was simply doing that. I would suggest that you are the one who needs to rethink your opinion and ask yourself if there is a certain degree of obvious homerism going on here.
Basically you cant prove I am wide off the mark.
It is simply an opinion. State it as such.

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11-11-2004, 11:17 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
I stand by my original statement that your opinion was far more of a stretch than that of Vlad's, misunderstood or not. To suggest that you couldnt come up with ten players that you would select ahead of him in the draft is weak regardless of whether or not you agree.
What was Vlad's opinion? You seem to misunderstand that he said Sjostrom should be out of the first round whereas he has clarified he did NOT think that and stated Hemsky is not a much better prospect.

My point was that there are not ten players I would select with total confidence they would be a better and more valuable player. There are only 5-8. Many of the rest of the names mentioned are on a par with Sjostrom. Its simply common sense to group them than try to put them in a definitive order.

Quote:
As for your remark about someone being the omniscient spokesperson I find it remarkable that you ask for an argument of substance after posting this remark as it is easily uncalled for.
Everyone who has weighed in on the subject has not taken your stance. This is also a message board where people are allowed to post thier opinions and point out the written opinions of others. He was simply doing that. I would suggest that you are the one who needs to rethink your opinion and ask yourself if there is a certain degree of obvious homerism going on here.
Basically you cant prove I am wide off the mark.
It is simply an opinion. State it as such.
I did state it as such. Read my posts and you will see when I gave my rankings I started with IMO.

As for Sammy's post - it contributed nothing and was merely an attempted snide post at me in its implications rather than sticking to the topic or any substantial talk about hockey.

Now let me ask you something. How many times have you actually seen Sjostrom play?

And please dont presume to have "everyone" behind you. There is flyerfan, Oiltalk and Sammy who specifically think little of Sjostrom. Three guys does not 8,000 HF posters make, especially when they cant spell the names of prospects or read posts.

Now can we get back to hockey? Sjostrom impressed when he made the NHL and has made a relatively good start with 7 goals in his first 57 games (as opposed to Hemsky's 6 in 59). He never looked in danger of being sent down (unlike many others who were like Chistov and Kobasew). That is why it is hazy but he deserves to be up there with them.


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11-11-2004, 11:52 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex

My point was that there are not ten players I would select with total confidence they would be a better and more valuable player. There are only 5-8. Many of the rest of the names mentioned are on a par with Sjostrom. Its simply common sense to group them than try to put them in a definitive order.

As .
Thats where your opinion is wrong. There are 15 guys that are easily Sjostroms superiour & about 10 his equal or better..Your about the only guy who doesnt see it, a Yotes fan coincedentally.

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11-11-2004, 12:05 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by flyers guy
Stevex:

When breaking down points per minute for this last season, Hemsky's production was nearly double that of Sjostrom's. Compare rookie seasons and Hemsky's production was far more than double Sjostrom's when breaking it down by their time on ice. And if you want to bring age into the discussion you're not helping Sjostrom much, as he's older than Hemsky.
Only just seen this post.

When breaking it down by points per minute, that is correct. However what I was referring to was that Sjostrom's goals per minute rate is actually better despite significantly less powerplay time (30 seconds per game compared to over 2.30 for Hemsky).

Hemsky had a significantly more offensive role than Sjostrom who has played mostly on the 3rd and 4th defensive lines of one of the worst teams in the NHL. Hemsky has a lot more assists, but his goalscoring is very similar.

When I mentioned age I was referring to their developmental 'age'. I know that's not that clear from my post but I was simply recalling off the top of my head. Hemsky is a year ahead of most of his contemporaries, so its no aspersion on Sjostrom that he is slower to mature.

Quote:
Lehtinen has put up big numbers in Finland and in the NHL, while Sjostrom has only put up some above average numbers in the WHL. I don't see Sjostrom having the offense (Lehtinen would have much better numbers if not for sacrificing much of his talent by being so committed to defense) or the stifling defense to be nearly as good as Lehtinen. Radivojevic has put up better numbers than Sjostrom in juniors, the AHL, and the NHL, so I highly doubt the difference between the two is as big as your comparison makes it sound. In 28 career AHL games, Sjostrom only has 1 goal and 8 assists. That hardly makes me want to take him over many players in his draft class, let alone in the top 10. It's still early, but I'm skeptical of a skill player that I've been unimpressed with on numerous occasions and one that hasn't put up numbers anywhere but the WHL.
Numbers numbers numbers... they can only tell you so much as Im sure you're aware. We all have to look at them but its far far better to watch the player.

Incidentially Sjostrom is not a "skill player" - that's a mistake. Hemsky is a skill player. Sjostrom is an all-rounder, two way player with energy and real skating ability and strong character. It is true he isnt putting up big numbers in the AHL but he has been playing on two of the worst AHL teams... really dire teams.. nobody has put up any numbers of any consequence on those teams except the goaltenders! Not to mention it *is* only 28 games split over two seasons.. a rather small sample to judge on, and a bit picky considering he has played well enough in 57 games at a higher level in the NHL. Nobody really cares what your numbers were before the NHL when you've made it.

Phoenix fans have seen a ton of both Radivojevic and Sjostrom and I believe you'd find there is very little doubt who they would think is the better player. Radivojevic was a hugely popular player but he will never be more than an third line player who might in a career year step up to the second line and manage 20-25 goals at the very very best. Sjostrom is already able to play in this role and has real potential to be a genuine 2nd liner who can step up to the 1st line. Incidentially he has already played on the top line which Radivojevic never did in Phoenix.

Radivojevic is a good all-rounder player but limited to the third line energy role. Lehtinen is another all-rounder but what marks him out, what makes him valuable is the level to which he can perform in every situation - which is why he'll never be just a third liner and Sjostrom clearly has the potential and tools to be the same type of player.

BTW - be careful before declaring Lehtinen and Radivojevic have put up better numbers. Its not very clear. Wanna know what Lehtinen did his first NHL year? 6 goals in 57 NHL games. (The having-to-play-defensively argument doesnt wash because it applies just as much to Sjostrom). Radivojevic hasnt really got definitively better numbers either.


Last edited by Gwyddbwyll: 11-11-2004 at 12:19 PM.
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11-11-2004, 12:13 PM
  #59
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1,2,3,4...5,7...6...9,10...Damn, I left out 8. I always forget 8.
(I think you truly are my favorite poster, Vlad. )

I already openly admitted that my view was quite biased and somewhat ignorant. I wish more people could do the same.

I misunderstood Vlad because he quoted a post inwhich the original poster had all but one of the prospects he listed that should have gone lower as "out of the first round" (or something to that effect). Vlad then posted "add Sjostrom" (or something to that effect). My mistake. Sorry.

I don't know if Sjostrom will be a big offensive force. But at his extremely young age, he is already a solid NHLer (that is more than you can say about most of the '01 class). I think this argument really needs at least one or two more seasons before any of us can make any truly decent points on the subject. At this point, though, I (obvious Coyotes homer) am not at all disapointed in Fast Freddie's development.

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11-11-2004, 12:17 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Incidentially Sjostrom is not a "skill player" - that's a mistake. Hemsky is a skill player. Sjostrom is an all-rounder, two way player with energy and real skating ability and strong character. It is true he isnt putting up big numbers in the AHL but he has been playing on two of the worst AHL teams... really dire teams.. nobody has put up any numbers of any consequence on those teams except the goaltenders! Not to mention it *is* only 28 games split over two seasons.. a rather small sample to judge on, and a bit picky considering he has played well enough in 57 games at a higher level in the NHL. Nobody really cares what your numbers were before the NHL when you've made it.
I meant to say all of that too.

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11-11-2004, 12:30 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
I misunderstood Vlad because he quoted a post inwhich the original poster had all but one of the prospects he listed that should have gone lower as "out of the first round" (or something to that effect). Vlad then posted "add Sjostrom" (or something to that effect). My mistake.
No problem there, rt! I didn't notice he put most of these guys out of the first round so I apologize. I had no idea where you came from with that assumption but now I do and I understand what happened

Regarding what I said on Sjostrom, I'm going to clarify: Bob McKenzie's list has him in 7th place. It is simply my opinion that this is too high and should be lower. How much lower? Probably depends who you want to gamble on.

Based on the upside of some of the guys (but the risk also) I would say Sjostrom could be anywhere from 15 to 40. But it's still early, Sjostrom is still a young player and there are tons of prospects drafted in late rounds who might also cause surprises.

Somehow, this became a much bigger deal than it was meant to be. I just don't think he was the 7th best player or that I would put him there at this point, that's all.

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11-11-2004, 12:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
No problem there, rt! I didn't notice he put most of these guys out of the first round so I apologize. I had no idea where you came from with that assumption but now I do and I understand what happened

Regarding what I said on Sjostrom, I'm going to clarify: Bob McKenzie's list has him in 7th place. It is simply my opinion that this is too high and should be lower. How much lower? Probably depends who you want to gamble on.

Based on the upside of some of the guys (but the risk also) I would say Sjostrom could be anywhere from 15 to 40. But it's still early, Sjostrom is still a young player and there are tons of prospects drafted in late rounds who might also cause surprises.

Somehow, this became a much bigger deal than it was meant to be. I just don't think he was the 7th best player or that I would put him there at this point, that's all.

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11-11-2004, 01:07 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douggy
I'm pretty sure THN does the same thing as Redline and ISS: Rank the players in the order they would draft them, not in the order they expect them to go in.

Did I really just correct Bob McKenzie!?
And how would they come up with these rankings? It's not like THN has a scouting staff that go around and watch all these kids.

You didn't correct Bob Mackenzie because you don't know what you're talking about. THN's information is all 2nd hand from actual scouts, they do not scout themselves and come up with their own list.

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11-11-2004, 01:15 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMckenzie
Bob McKenzie TSN
I'm sure that I'm not the first one to ask you this, but are you really Bob Mckenzie?

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11-11-2004, 01:29 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleublancrouge
I'm sure that I'm not the first one to ask you this, but are you really Bob Mckenzie?
No just leave him alone

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11-11-2004, 04:05 PM
  #66
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Lower...much lower...

Mikko 'China Doll' Koivu!

UGH! I'm disgusted at his pick at the moment because Koivu has done little to NOTHING AT ALL! Except break his ankle and have his apendenix taken out of him!

DO SOMETHING KOIVU THEN BEING A CHINA DOLL!


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11-11-2004, 04:20 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DoobieDoobieDo
Lower...much lower...

Mikko 'China Doll' Koivu!

UGH! I'm disgusted at his pick at the moment because Koivu has done little to NOTHING AT ALL! Except break his ankle and have his apendenix taken out of him!

DO SOMETHING KOIVU THEN BEING A CHINA DOLL!

I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I also find it weird that you can blame a player for having an appendectomy. It's not even a hockey-related injury.

Perhaps you've been spoiled by several first rounders jumping to the NHL right after the draft but it isn't always that way and it's not a race either. Take a look at all three calder finalists last year and check out when they were drafted.

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11-11-2004, 05:12 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleublancrouge
I'm sure that I'm not the first one to ask you this, but are you really Bob Mckenzie?
No, he's just one of the other Bob McKenzie's working for TSN as an analyst...

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11-11-2004, 05:15 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I also find it weird that you can blame a player for having an appendectomy. It's not even a hockey-related injury.

Perhaps you've been spoiled by several first rounders jumping to the NHL right after the draft but it isn't always that way and it's not a race either. Take a look at all three calder finalists last year and check out when they were drafted.
Actually I find that he hasn't played a full season yet in either the Finnish League and now the AHL, a bit depressing.

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11-11-2004, 05:54 PM
  #70
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He did make the Fin's Cup team no?

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11-11-2004, 06:03 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoobieDoobieDo
Actually I find that he hasn't played a full season yet in either the Finnish League and now the AHL, a bit depressing.
He played a reasonable number of games in Finland. I think the seasons over there are something like 50 games and he came very close to that a couple of times. If you add a couple of tournaments, maybe that explains much.

Interestingly enough, if you look at many of the top prospects in this draft, a couple of them missed even more time than him. Tuomo Ruutu and Dan Blackburn followed him a little later and they both have suffered injuries. Svitov and Chistov almost lost a complete season, Kobasew has missed time, Hemsky spends as much time heating the press box as he spends on the ice. Komisarek played only a little over 60 games last year (AHL+NHL). Let's not even talking about the "genious" pick Adrian Foster. He's probably going to kill himself sneezing one of these days.

Could have been worse than Koivu, I think. I still think he will be one of the better players in this draft.

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11-11-2004, 06:08 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
What was Vlad's opinion? You seem to misunderstand that he said Sjostrom should be out of the first round whereas he has clarified he did NOT think that and stated Hemsky is not a much better prospect.

My point was that there are not ten players I would select with total confidence they would be a better and more valuable player. There are only 5-8. Many of the rest of the names mentioned are on a par with Sjostrom. Its simply common sense to group them than try to put them in a definitive order.



I did state it as such. Read my posts and you will see when I gave my rankings I started with IMO.

As for Sammy's post - it contributed nothing and was merely an attempted snide post at me in its implications rather than sticking to the topic or any substantial talk about hockey.

Now let me ask you something. How many times have you actually seen Sjostrom play?

And please dont presume to have "everyone" behind you. There is flyerfan, Oiltalk and Sammy who specifically think little of Sjostrom. Three guys does not 8,000 HF posters make, especially when they cant spell the names of prospects or read posts.

Now can we get back to hockey? Sjostrom impressed when he made the NHL and has made a relatively good start with 7 goals in his first 57 games (as opposed to Hemsky's 6 in 59). He never looked in danger of being sent down (unlike many others who were like Chistov and Kobasew). That is why it is hazy but he deserves to be up there with them.
1) I have seen him play probably 25-30 times as I get NHL direct ticket and follow the Yotes. I am a big fan of Shane Doan and I also liked watching Hrdina play while he was there. Lets not be presumptuous here and assume I am pulling this opinion out of my butt. I follow hockey and the game. I appreciate the skill of the sport and am able to form an objective opinion regardless of the team I root for.

2) Perhaps you should read MY post when you suggest that I am stating "all 8000 people at HF" are on my side of this debate when I specifically stated that it was "everyone who weighed in on the subject".
Not that popular opinion matters to me because even if they did not agree I would still feel that your top 10 ranking is far more of a stretch than him being out of the top 30.
Thats my edjucated opinion and you will not sway me in any way. I happen to think that you may be letting your fandom effect your opinion as is quite common for most fans.
I do not need to know his stats nor do I need it pointed out that he seems to have adjusted well to the NHL.
I am aware of all of these things, and having seen his play and being of sound mind that is why I say my opinion is an edjucated one.
You dont have to like it or agree with it. But i will still state it because it is on topic with the thread.
I still feel that there are players from that draft with more upside than you care to configure into the equation.
So argue my points if you would like, but dont argue things that I didnt say (like everybody at HF agrees with me) because it is futile and transparant.
Is he a good player? Certainly. Would he still be a first rounder? Probably in most draft lists. Would he be in the top 10? Not by a long shot IMO.

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11-12-2004, 12:12 AM
  #73
thestonedkoala
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Response to Vlad:

Koivu was taken 6th overall, I think that is 1) way to high 2) and he hasn't shown very much to be warranted that spot. Hell I think he could've been taken late in the 1st, close to the 2nd round and be a good pick there, not in the top 10.

His points also leave a lot to be wanted. I know they don't count second assist but his most is 30 and that came lat year...

I am weary of him ever becoming the player he was suppose to be when we picked him up,.

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Old
11-12-2004, 12:34 AM
  #74
Buffaloed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
No, he's just one of the other Bob McKenzie's working for TSN as an analyst...
:lol

The best part about the lockout is we get to see more of Bob here.

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Old
11-12-2004, 12:46 AM
  #75
Mizral
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Yeah Bob, what's TSN got you doing anyways?

Covering the Minor-Pro NWT/Alaskan Women's Cup? I see you've been doing your regular bits from time to time, but I haven't caught you going out and covering much.

Why doesn't TSN pick up some CHL games? Is it 'cause the 'other guys' have a few games and you can't share? Or what about some AHL games? Same situation?

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