Voted Jagr... Oates needs to be #1, he's the best passer of all times, Gretzky and Mario got votes over him because they're the best two players alive.
Voted Jagr... Oates needs to be #1, he's the best passer of all times, Gretzky and Mario got votes over him because they're the best two players alive.
Lemieux vs Oates was a poll, the thread it got deleted, but it was 70%+ in favour of Mario although I can see the point you're trying to make. As for Gretzky, you have to be kidding right?
Getzlaf needs to be added to the next one statistically he is as good as H.Sedin
Curtis Glencross should be added because statistically he's as good as than Ron Francis.
See how that works?
Here are the actual stats:
Games Played: Getzlaf (497) / Sedin (876)
Career APG: Getzlaf (0.634) / Sedin (0.836)
Best Assist Total in a Season: Getzlaf (66a in 81gp) / Sedin (83a in 82gp)
Best APG Ratio in a Season: Getzlaf (0.851) / Sedin (1.012)
Even take out Henrik's Art Ross season and compare their best 3 seasons for APG:
Getzlaf (0.808 in 214gp) / Sedin (0.841 in 246gp)
Henrik has lead the league in assists twice (10-11, 09-10, and is currently leading this season), and has finished in the top 5 again twice (07-08, 08-09). Getzlaf's best finish was 3rd in 08-09 and 4th in 10-11. He has not finished in the top 5 otherwise.
Getzlaf belongs nowhere near this list right now. Maybe in 6 or 7 years.
If you would like to make a case (with stats or otherwise) why Getzlaf should be on this list I welcome it, but if you're going to throw the "statistically" argument you had better back it up.
Curtis Glencross should be added because statistically he's as good as than Ron Francis.
See how that works?
Here are the actual stats:
Games Played: Getzlaf (497) / Sedin (876)
Career APG: Getzlaf (0.634) / Sedin (0.836)
Best Assist Total in a Season: Getzlaf (66a in 81gp) / Sedin (83a in 82gp)
Best APG Ratio in a Season: Getzlaf (0.851) / Sedin (1.012)
Even take out Henrik's Art Ross season and compare their best 3 seasons for APG:
Getzlaf (0.808 in 214gp) / Sedin (0.841 in 246gp)
Henrik has lead the league in assists twice (10-11, 09-10, and is currently leading this season), and has finished in the top 5 again twice (07-08, 08-09). Getzlaf's best finish was 3rd in 08-09 and 4th in 10-11. He has not finished in the top 5 otherwise.
Getzlaf belongs nowhere near this list right now. Maybe in 6 or 7 years.
If you would like to make a case (with stats or otherwise) why Getzlaf should be on this list I welcome it, but if you're going to throw the "statistically" argument you had better back it up.
Not sure where those numbers come from H.Sedin has 562 assists in 876 games making his APG .641 almost the same as Getzlaf. Also in the playoffs Sedin has APG of .511 and Getzlaf has APG of .538. I don't know how you got so offended by me saying Getzlaf is statistically as good as Sedin but statistically he is.
Voted Jagr... Oates needs to be #1, he's the best passer of all times, Gretzky and Mario got votes over him because they're the best two players alive.
how in hell was oates a better passer than gretzky??
gretzky was easily the best passer in history. lemieux was also better than oates, but not by as huge a margin as gretzky.
Not sure where those numbers come from H.Sedin has 562 assists in 876 games making his APG .641 almost the same as Getzlaf. Also in the playoffs Sedin has APG of .511 and Getzlaf has APG of .538. I don't know how you got so offended by me saying Getzlaf is statistically as good as Sedin but statistically he is.
I'm not offended, I'm just showing the actual stats. And on that note I apologize as I misquoted the APG total, you're correct on the 0.641 and I was wrong.
My point still stands though that when you look at peak and longevity, Getzlaf has not been in the league long enough to provide the numbers to be on this list nor has he had as high a peak as Sedin in terms of APG seasons. The best comparison I think really is to look at where they ranked in the league and although injuries have affected Getzlaf in some regard, he has not been consistantly top 3 even when you break it down for each season.
For recent players, most people regard the top passers (my opinion and interpretation of consensus) as Thornton, Sedin, Crosby. I rank Backstrom and Getzlaf just below beacause of the peak/longevity argument.
After all is said and done will Getzlaf be up there? More than likely. But not now.
Last edited by Wildcarder: 03-06-2012 at 05:03 PM.
I'm not offended, I'm just showing the actual stats. And on that note I apologize as I misquoted the APG total, you're correct on the 0.641 and I was wrong.
My point still stands though that when you look at peak and longevity, Getzlaf has not been in the league long enough to provide the numbers ot be on this list nor has he had as high a peak as Sedin in terms of APG seasons.
After all is said and done will Getzlaf be up there? More than likely. But not now.
I disagree Sedin didn't break out until he was about Getzlaf's age (although Getz is having a down year) but Getzlaf has done this early in his career so who is to say he won't break out like Sedin did then he would win against Sedin in a land slide right now they are about even.
Voted Jagr... Oates needs to be #1, he's the best passer of all times, Gretzky and Mario got votes over him because they're the best two players alive.
I disagree Sedin didn't break out until he was about Getzlaf's age (although Getz is having a down year) but Getzlaf has done this early in his career so who is to say he won't break out like Sedin did then he would win against Sedin in a land slide right now they are about even.
That's the point. No one can say what he will do, and no one is saying that he won't become a better passer in the FUTURE.
This poll though is who at this point in time is the better passer rather than who has the higher potential. Do you honestly think (not a leading question) that if both Getzlaf and Sedin's careers ended today that Getzlaf would be rated as the better passer?
Still no love for Ronny Francis, guy is a legendary passer....
Too much youth is my guess who don't remember/respect all time greats.
I remember both Francis and Jagr, and while Francis was great, Jagr was significantly better. As nik jr has pointed out in previous threads, Jagr scored more assists per game than Francis, despite playing much less of his career in a high scoring era. Also, Jagr rarely had the benefit of an elite goal scorer to line up with. Francis's best assist years were all centering a goal scorer named Jagr.
IMO, Jagr is in the same tier of passers as Forsberg and Thornton. As an excellent goal scorer as well, Jagr didn't pass as often as they did, but he was just as good at it.
These are Jagr's assist finishes:
1993-94 NHL 67 (7)
1994-95 NHL 38 (7)
1995-96 NHL 87 (3)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 83 (1)
1999-00 NHL 54 (3)
2000-01 NHL 69 (1)
2001-02 NHL 48 (9)
2005-06 NHL 69 (3)
2006-07 NHL 66 (5)
They are incredible (leading the league in assists 3 times!) when you consider how often Jagr shot the puck himself. And in 1998-99, Jagr didn't have anyone spectacular to play with.
IMO, Jagr is in the same tier of passers as Forsberg and Thornton. As an excellent goal scorer as well, Jagr didn't pass as often as they did, but he was just as good at it.
These are Jagr's assist finishes:
1993-94 NHL 67 (7)
1994-95 NHL 38 (7)
1995-96 NHL 87 (3)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 83 (1)
1999-00 NHL 54 (3)
2000-01 NHL 69 (1)
2001-02 NHL 48 (9)
2005-06 NHL 69 (3)
2006-07 NHL 66 (5)
They are incredible (leading the league in assists 3 times!) when you consider how often Jagr shot the puck himself. And in 1998-99, Jagr didn't have anyone spectacular to play with.
I completely agree with this. When you think about how Jagr was able to lead the league multiple times during the dead-puck era as well as how much of a shooter and goal scorer he was it is a pretty incredible accomplishment.
That's the point. No one can say what he will do, and no one is saying that he won't become a better passer in the FUTURE.
This poll though is who at this point in time is the better passer rather than who has the higher potential. Do you honestly think (not a leading question) that if both Getzlaf and Sedin's careers ended today that Getzlaf would be rated as the better passer?
I wouldn't say Getzlaf was a better passer but more consistent which should be part of the argument. I agree we shouldn't argue about the future but the fact is that Getzlaf has the numbers to back up at least being on this list I think I have shown that.
Here is a scan of an issue of The Hockey News discussing the 89 MVP. Of relevant note is the statement on how Yzerman's linemates just stopped finishing during the end of the ssn:
"By season's end Yzerman, was a butterfly without wings. On the right, Paul Maclean went in the tank for the final 35 games. On the left, Gerard Gallant accomplished little in the final 20. With even a little help from his flanks, Yzerman would have finished even closer to Gretzky and Lemieux in the scoring race."
depending on how the question of best passer is viewed, jagr's assists, assists per game and rankings in assists could flatter him.
b/c jagr had the puck so much and kept it in the offensive zone so much, he got more assists than a normal elite playmaker (and also more shots, goals, points, etc).
does having possession much more make someone a better passer? or does it just mean he is on offense more?
