No, there is actually a point to what Bob says. The old days in the NHL were dirty and brutal as hell but guys who played that way had to "buy" these liberties, they had to pay a price. And that's what kept the equilibrium in place. Guys dished out but they also had to take a lot of punishment.
Nowadays, guys can play very aggressive, very dangerous hockey without there being enough feedback for the situation to police itself.
Kronwall is absolutely right to make that hit and in the new NHL he has little to fear, a D-man playing his style is seldom in position to be seriously hit and he doesn't fight. As a result you will see a lot more hits. If Kronwall was physically held responsible there would probably be more hesitation on his part to make these hits or he would have to accept the physical toll.
I have been annoyed by the presence of guys like Ott, Cooke or Tootoo who take runs at guys pretty much without feedback. The new NHL has made sneaky hockey violence the much smarter course of action than 'honest' all out violence and as a result we see a lot more sneaky hockey violence.
Kronwall's hits are clean and legal for the most part and this one most certainly was - but it's better for the game if he also has to accept the feedback and the physical bill being evened out.
Skill guys even back in the day if a Rinaldo tried to get a hold of him a goon would have jumped off the bench and made sure that was not followed through on. Mark "elbows" Messier didn't have to fight goons. Even in the wild wild west good old days in the NHL, Kronwall wouldn't answer to the guys you're ******** about him ducking in this game.
I will grant you this because I know the response is coming this doesn't explain the Kesler incident. That was certainly a trade off for skill versus skill. I am actually surprised with as good as he is on his skates and as strong as he is, I think he would be a pretty decent fighter, obviously he knows better. Kesler's go to move in a fight though is to sweep the guys legs and body slam, so not great for a guy with a history of knee and lower back problems.
By the way the Wings don't often ask guys to oblige clean hits either. So it isn't like they are hypocritical in this sense. The only one I can think of all year was Bert and Carcillo and quite frankly Carcillo was under no obligation to answer the call. You didn't see them get all butthurt when Zetterberg got run into the ditch during the game.
Your bloodlust for seeing Kronwall get pummeled is ridiculous.
I want to see if Kronwall, when he takes his pummeling, will be man enough to keep playing his game.
I highly doubt it, given the way he performed tonight after the hit.
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You know what you were taught even before you were old enough to get the stick up for your teammates. Was to skate with your head up. That is lesson one in hockey.
And I agree. Voracek deserves what he got, by the oldest of hockey codes. But that still doesn't mean Kronwall should be able to deliver career-ending hits without punishment.
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I also love how you talk about career ending injuries, by the way none of which he has delivered and then referenced something that leads to far more career ending injuries.
Not sure what you are talking about here man.
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There is no reason for Kronwall to fight Rinaldo, that is a joke and had he jumped him for what was not penalty on ice and in my opinion is a clean hit. I would have told Smith to jump Giroux the next time he hit the ice if I was Babcock. There is no reason a star caliber d-man should ever fight Rinaldo, I don't care if he skewers the guy with his stick. On a legal play it is just not something that should happen, if Giroux wanted to go fine have at it, but he just wants to run his yap and have Hartnell or Rinaldo answer. Disappointing because I have seen him fight and actually believe Kronwall would have granted his request. But I never want to see him throw down with a fourth line guy, when Ovie makes a questionable hit or Backes, they don't fight tough guys period.
I am not sure what you are talking about.
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Maybe you should find a new team CB since you hate almost all the players on it and our prospects are so awful we could have this guy.
No dude. Maybe you should stop treating hockey like this is Democrat vs Republican politics.
I have no desire for partisan cheerleading. You want to say something incredibly silly, I'm going to challenge your silly statement. You don't get to say that Sheahan is a better prospect than Kuznetssov and then have everyone agree simply because Sheahan is the Red Wing.
The kind of reasoning that leads people to agree with silly statements is only a few steps short of the kind of broken thought process that convinces some moron to get out of his car and beat up someone he thinks is a Blackhawks fan.
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Did you want guys to pound Konstantinov for legal hits? He wouldn't have gone with a crap player like Rinaldo either.
Guys DID pound Konstantinov for his legal hits.
And God Love'em, Konstantinov didn't back down.
Guys did pound Stuart for his legal hits.
And God Love'm, Stuart didn't back down.
The code is pretty simple. It's not a hockey code. It's a man code.
If you're trying to hurt people, you better be ready to be hurt.
If you don't want any part of the second half of that code, then you're just a god damn coward.
Rinaldo has every right to run Kronwall for what he did. He just has to deal with the consequences. If he has a chance to legally hit him, by all means he should go for it. If he wants to hit him illegally, that's good for him too, I just hope his team doesn't mind killing the penalty, dealing with the suspension, whatever the case may be. If he wants to attack him, well go right ahead, but again he's going to have to deal with the penalty.
What would be incredibly stupid would be for Kronwall to willingly indulge in a gentleman's duel that will not give his team any advantage whatsoever. Why should he square off and trade 5 minutes? The only reason I've ever heard out of you is so he doesn't look like a coward. Well big ****in deal, being called a coward never had any impact on a game. Drawing a penalty, on the other hand, certainly can.
Do you expect Kronwall to win a fight? If so, you could maybe argue that winning would be good for the team's morale. Otherwise, what possible advantage is there for him to put his fists up and get his face pounded in? How is that going to help him or his team?
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Originally Posted by CB
I want to see if Kronwall, when he takes his pummeling, will be man enough to keep playing his game.
I highly doubt it, given the way he performed tonight after the hit.
And right here you pretty much win your opponents' argument against you. According to you, Kronwall, after getting pounded, will no longer be able to play his game effectively. If this is true, WHY IN GOD'S NAME would he ever willingly put himself in a position to get pounded? What does he have to gain?
I want to see if Kronwall, when he takes his pummeling, will be man enough to keep playing his game.
I highly doubt it, given the way he performed tonight after the hit.
And I agree. Voracek deserves what he got, by the oldest of hockey codes. But that still doesn't mean Kronwall should be able to deliver career-ending hits without punishment.
Not sure what you are talking about here man.
I am not sure what you are talking about.
No dude. Maybe you should stop treating hockey like this is Democrat vs Republican politics.
I have no desire for partisan cheerleading. You want to say something incredibly silly, I'm going to challenge your silly statement. You don't get to say that Sheahan is a better prospect than Kuznetssov and then have everyone agree simply because Sheahan is the Red Wing.
The kind of reasoning that leads people to agree with silly statements is only a few steps short of the kind of broken thought process that convinces some moron to get out of his car and beat up someone he thinks is a Blackhawks fan.
Guys DID pound Konstantinov for his legal hits.
And God Love'em, Konstantinov didn't back down.
Guys did pound Stuart for his legal hits.
And God Love'm, Stuart didn't back down.
The code is pretty simple. It's not a hockey code. It's a man code.
If you're trying to hurt people, you better be ready to be hurt.
If you don't want any part of the second half of that code, then you're just a god damn coward.
While I don't think Bob always presents his case in the proper manner for discussion when lambasting Kronwall for his cowardice, a real man should understand this point. It doesn't matter if its clean or not, if you play the game the way he does, and someone wants you to answer the call, even if you don't want to do it, you man up and do it. The world has become very prissy these days though, so I doubt many younger people would understand it.
Also I guess the Bertuzzi incident on Moore probably has had an impact we didn't realize on why no one will ever just attack Kronwall as no one wants to see another incident like that happen again. That's why Kenny signed Bert for 2 more years!!!! Because indirectly Kronner can continue wrecking people and drawing penalties to help out crappy PP win us games LOL!
I want to see if Kronwall, when he takes his pummeling, will be man enough to keep playing his game.
I highly doubt it, given the way he performed tonight after the hit.
Are you talking about when he took hits, throwing Giroux to the ice and then taking one that led to Jagr knocking himself out of the game. I don't think jumping him would talk him out of playing this way, it would just cause the Wings to get someone to dissuade that line of thinking, I know you would probably be thrilled by that addition.
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
And I agree. Voracek deserves what he got, by the oldest of hockey codes. But that still doesn't mean Kronwall should be able to deliver career-ending hits without punishment.
Again name his career ending hit, one of them. Tonight might be his first who knows, none of his hits have led to more games lost than the dirty knee to knee he took himself and didn't say boo about.
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
Not sure what you are talking about here man.
Once again none of Kronwalls hits have led to career ending injuries and you cite something that has in fact led to a career ending injury.
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
I am not sure what you are talking about.
What you are espousing never leads to just one incident. Almost always has more collateral damage. If they think Rinaldo should answer that hit, then we send out one our best players to pick on skill guy. Jagr recklessly tried to achieve payback, imagine how they would feel if we sent Smith over and just told him to have at it for that hit. Or say okay Rinaldo is going to fight Kronwall for that, the next hit delivered by Briere, Abdelkader you grab him and deck him, because that is where that is heading.
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
No dude. Maybe you should stop treating hockey like this is Democrat vs Republican politics.
I have no desire for partisan cheerleading. You want to say something incredibly silly, I'm going to challenge your silly statement. You don't get to say that Sheahan is a better prospect than Kuznetssov and then have everyone agree simply because Sheahan is the Red Wing.
The kind of reasoning that leads people to agree with silly statements is only a few steps short of the kind of broken thought process that convinces some moron to get out of his car and beat up someone he thinks is a Blackhawks fan.
At no point did I say Kuznetsov was a worse prospect, I questioned whether or not he would actually come over from Russia. Even more so if he would do it for a team without his buddy Ovie that attended his wedding.
As for the second part not really sure what you mean. How is not hating every member of your team or liking them all going to lead to aggravated assault and battery?
self edit: over the line. I enjoy the good back and forth, and I really do understand were CB is coming from on a lot of his points just have a vastly different view point on a lot of them. I understand the hockey argument I just disagree. No harm intended or trolling without facts and statistics it is pointless to have a back and forth like this.
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob
Guys DID pound Konstantinov for his legal hits.
And God Love'em, Konstantinov didn't back down.
Guys did pound Stuart for his legal hits.
And God Love'm, Stuart didn't back down.
The code is pretty simple. It's not a hockey code. It's a man code.
If you're trying to hurt people, you better be ready to be hurt.
If you don't want any part of the second half of that code, then you're just a god damn coward.
Stuart and Konstantinov would not have answered to Rinaldo, nope not buying it. He seeks to inflict punishment within the rules, you can do likewise to him. Did you see him ***** and moan when Koivu clobbered him, no he took his medicine and called a nice play. He didn't even complain once again when Laraque got him illegally.
He might be a coward by your standards but he continues to deliver hits and play a tough game despite breaking his back, and blowing out his knee. Just because he doesn't feel the need to stick up for something he is well within his rights to do you slap him with that label. Had a good friend who played hockey at U of M and talked about the same code as you and he wound up on trial for the same acts you are condoning and said it was the wrong thing to do and had to pay a huge settlement. Bert has apologized over and over.
Keeping your head up is the first lesson in hockey, I have never once had boo to say about a guy that caught me not following this lesson, especially if he didn't leave his feet or use his elbow to deliver the hit.
Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 03-06-2012 at 11:58 PM.
Reason: re-read decided to take it down.
I'm not even going to bother reading posts that are parsed like that. Picking 47 sentence fragments out of each post to dissect them individually is beyond overboard, and we're not going to agree on anything anyway.
Kronwall is a 25 minute a night defenseman. He needs to stay on the ice. He also would get killed if he dropped the gloves because he's tiny and he's never fought anybody in his entire life. There's no argument to be made there.
Nipped his head? Nipped?
Are you kidding me?
You guys are a bloody riot. You can't own anything.
I re-worded my post after seeing a different angle. It clearly wasn't a blatant head shot. Voracek had his head down. This wasn't Zac Rinaldo or Matt Cooke-esque here.
And I know you think Kronwall is a coward. But he shouldn't have to fight for making clean hits. Should he every once in a while? Probably. But you make it sound like he should fight someone every time he makes a big hit. That just be hurting the team.
There is also no need for teams to get butthurt and goon it up after clean hits. Rinaldo is a goon and lets say Kronwall fights him. Do the Flyers care if the lose Rinaldo for 5 min? No. Do the Wings if its Kronwall? Yes.
I don't understand how CB knows that Kronwall doesn't fight because he's scared.
There are legitimate reasons for him not to fight.
1. Especially now, he's our #1. And he's got an offensive flair that we desperately need with people like Datsyuk, Bert, and Lids out of the lineup.
2. Maybe he just doesn't feel like he should have to fight after every clean big hit he gives. I sure wouldn't. If some guy is running up the score on you, is he supposed to answer for that? As long as it's legal and within the game, you shouldn't have to drop the gloves.
3. He wants to go on the PP. Okay, this one isn't so legit. Our PP sucks a giant one. But he did draw a penalty today by not fighting back. That works. Get the other team off their game, get a PP in return. I'll take that. The PP disappears if he accommodates whichever goon they send after him.
But somehow, he KNOWS that the reason is that Kronwall is just scared of fighting. Confusing.
If it's a dirty hit, and let's not pretend he hasn't thrown some borderline ones, then I am 100% on board for him having to thrown down with a goon. Let Kronwall get his ass kicked, he deserved it.
But
If it's a clean hit because the receiver of the kronwalling is skating like a jack ass midget (Hudler pun intended) house player, there is no reason for him to throw down. I won't sit here and lie and say I wouldn't be pissed if that happened to Datsyuk but if a guys head is down, his head is down. Every hockey player knows this. And keep your stick on the ice (you miss out on a lot of goals not doing this).
I don't buy the if it's White, Lidstrom, etc etc argument. They aren't those type of players. In a perfect world half your defenseman play like Kronwall and the other half are your Lidstrom, Ralfalski, White, etc
Scary thing is Smith is a couple years off from dishing out his own pain. And what a glorious, textbook checker does he get to learn from. That's for another thread though.
People are right that NHL players used to police themselves and it worked out for the most part, I tend to agree with them. However, that's why you had your Probie, Kocur, Grim Reaper, etc etc etc to fight for your star players. Kronwall is a star player.
As I said, keep 'em comin Kronner. It knocks the oppositions game so much it's unreal. Outcome didn't work out tonight but Datsyuk wasn't dressed. Which is actually good, the Red Wings didn't need a Flyer head hunting Datsyuk, the real definition of head hunting. Ogie Ogolthorpe!
Love Kronwall, love his hits, love the fact that he doesn't waste time fighting, and love how that pisses people off.
Similar train of thought by the way, but will imagine the other side for a second. What would people say if Kronwall became a spot picker like Bieksa? Look at his fight card, only really one, Eager jumps out at you, by the way he got pummeled like a little girl in that fight. Both Seabrook and Bolland reek of this too. Imagine a couple times he pops a guy that is around his size, actually said player jumps up and he pummels them. Do you still call him a coward? A lot of Kronwall's problem in my opinion is his hits are so big they attract the heavy hitters. He doesn't need to fight Ryane Clowe or Rinaldo. But one of these times when a smaller guy hops up or the first teammate over isn't a big tough guy he should pop them. I have no doubts especially seeing Kovy work the kid, that when Schenn came over last time (Briere hit) Kronwall should have treated the 20 year old rookie to some man strength. Whipped him around and spit him out, I have a hard time believing all of his lower body strength and the fact he is compact but very powerful given his height and weight that he couldn't find somebody to prove his point with. Not that he should but it would silence so many critics and guys around the league who might feel this way.
By the way ready for everybody to be upset once this fight was instigated with him that he didn't remove his helmet with a visor. A whole different can of worms, that will continue to see him as a coward.
Also for a pure point can you imagine the lift the Wings will get out of a Kronwall fight if he waits until the playoffs at some point. At this point you have to think they would go nuts if he decided to do it and given his leadership role now this could be a huge spark.
Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 03-07-2012 at 12:15 AM.
By the way hasn't come up a lot around here but stunned they didn't blow the play dead. Even if it was legal and led to the Wings have a scoring chance, that is something that needed to be blown dead. Voracek was absolutely in distress out there on the ice with a potentially very significant injury. That is a failure of how officials are supposed to call the game in my opinion.
Can't even imagine what Voracek was thinking. He glances up, SEES KRONWALL, puts the head back down low. Hell of a hit, unfortunate it was directly to his head.
Suspension seems likely for now, probably on the shorter side. Only thing Kronwall has going for him is that Voracek put himself in a bad position. Voracek also being alright after (somehow) will play in.
Hitting a guy with his head down is legal. But it's never clean. Hitting a guy with a head down WILL ALWAYS be viewed as taking advantage a guy in a vulnerable position.
This is flat out wrong. It's his job, his duty, his obligation to hit players with their head down.
It is Voraceks job to keep his head up.
There is absolutely no place in sports to imbue discretion upon an athletes passion and instinct. Everyone goes 100% and we see how things stack up, if Voracek can't hang, then that's the way it is.
It's quite obvious, in the Havlat, Hemsky, and Voracek hits that Kronwall doesn't enjoy the potential injury he's inflicting. It would be a shame if that got in the way of him being the best player he can be, and the right play is to put his check on his butt.
I honestly have no idea where you are coming from. There is not a coach in the world that teaches you to avoid hitting someone because they're not playing properly, and the codes that you like to promote simply don't exist. If they did, Kronwall would've had to fight someone by now.
He's been doing it for years, he hits clean, everyone knows it, the solution is to try to get him clean, or simply keep your head up. If the solution was McCarty on Lemieux there's nothing stopping anybody from doing that. I don't know why you're pretending differently.
By the way hasn't come up a lot around here but stunned they didn't blow the play dead. Even if it was legal and led to the Wings have a scoring chance, that is something that needed to be blown dead. Voracek was absolutely in distress out there on the ice with a potentially very significant injury. That is a failure of how officials are supposed to call the game in my opinion.
Agreed. His arms spasming after he hit the ice was one of the scariest things I've seen in sports. No reason this shouldn't have been treated like they treat slap shots to the head.
It was a clean hit and I doubt it draws a suspension. The idea a guy has to answer for a clean hit is idiotic. Checking is part of the game and within the rules, so Kronwall doesn't have to apologize to anyone or defend his right to make an open ice hit. He's never been suspended for a hit and I don't think this hit will warrant him sitting out any games. If the NHL wants to take hitting out of the game to protect clueless skaters like Voracek they can but right now there's no way they can penalize a guy for making a clean hit.
Hitting a guy with a head down WILL ALWAYS be viewed as taking advantage a guy in a vulnerable position.
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Originally Posted by SoupGuru
Kronwall has to give that hit up. As a sportsman. Legal or not.
I think he realized that afterwards.
So u guys mean a player can carry the puck and go coast to coast with his head down all the way, and no one is allowed to hit him because if you do hit him with his head down, it's considered unethical, dirty and taking advantage of the other player??? That's nice. I think we will start seeing 30 goals each game if that's the case.
Give up a legal hit? That's like telling your D not to hit at all. Let the other team skates past you freely! How fun!
So u guys mean a player can carry the puck and go coast to coast with his head down all the way, and no one is allowed to hit him because if you do hit him with his head down, it's considered unethical, dirty and taking advantage of the other player??? That's nice. I think we will start seeing 30 goals each game if that's the case.
Give up a legal hit? That's like telling your D not to hit at all. Let the other team skates past you freely! How fun!
A clean hit that forces a turnover and generates a quality scoring chance HAS NO PLACE in the NHL.
Look. I don't want a defenseman to not deliver that hit.
But let's not pretend that he didn't have a choice. Would Lidstrom or White have delivered that hit?
Would Stuart have delivered it as high?
Would Ericsson deliver that hit?
No.
This is what Kronwall does. He delivers big, glorious dangerous hits that can end someone's career.
And then he hides.
I am disappointed the Flyers didn't give him what he deserves. I guess the new NHL doesn't allow for accountability. Cowardly punks like Kronwall and co. can delivery potentially career-ending hits without accountablility.
Before the Bertuzzi incident, my guess is that a coach wouldn't have let his team get out of the period without making Kronwall answer, one way or the other.
Why would you want Kronwall to fight when the Wings essentially had a 5 on 3? (Voracek knocked out and Schenn hoping Kronwall drops them but not guarding him). I understand in other situations but he nearly scored a goal a few seconds after the hit because he kept playing instead of being goaded into a fight
