I loved the hit. I think people like Bob here who seem to believe that every big, clean hit needs to turn into a 5 minute penalty are [mod].
Those dudes just want to see fights. They're functioning under some kind of absurd code from the 70's.
Brandon Dubinsky just hurt his hand fighting. Wow, that's great for the Rangers. What a smart play by Dubinsky to 'stand up for himself'. I'm sure the benefit of having that fight will surely outweigh him being either our or limited for an extended period of time.
The merits of fighting with regards to the actual outcome in a hockey game are debateable. There is an argument to be made whether a fight helps a team, hurts their opponent or has no real impact and just ends up being fun for the fans. The merits of having the best dman on the team (as it is) fighting just because he laid a guy out are not.
It is stupid. The absolute best case scenario results in said dman going off for 5 whole minutes, just for hitting a dude. The worst case scenarios start from getting dinged and proceed to getting concussed and out for a long time.
And IMO the particularly amusing bit about Bob's 'fight everybody for anything' screeds is that he ostensibly is concerned about a decrease in hitting in hockey. Hey, I wonder if he's considered that having to drop the gloves 90% of the time you put a big hit on a guy might, you know, reduce the amount of hitting in the NHL?
Last edited by Fugu: 03-07-2012 at 10:55 AM.
Reason: flaming
I loved the hit. I think people like Bob here who seem to believe that every big, clean hit needs to turn into a 5 minute penalty are [mod].
Those dudes just want to see fights. They're functioning under some kind of absurd code from the 70's.
Brandon Dubinsky just hurt his hand fighting. Wow, that's great for the Rangers. What a smart play by Dubinsky to 'stand up for himself'. I'm sure the benefit of having that fight will surely outweigh him being either our or limited for an extended period of time.
Iginla and Chris Stewart have also lost chunks of time from fighting as well. I thought it was a great hit. Voracek needs to have more on ice awareness and keep his head up. Kronwall's just trying to blow the guy up. If he was a couple inches taller we wouldn't be having this conversation. I saw a few borderline dirty hits by Flyer players after the hit. Anyone else see those? I think he may get a game or two to quell the "outrage." Shouldn't, but oh well.
That's the thing, hitting isn't there so that players can hurt other players. It's there so that players can separate other players from the puck. Sure, there's the aspect of punishment involved but I think what Kronwall does, while very skillful and within the rules, goes far beyond what is necessary to accomplish that goal and enters the realm of being predatory/intending to cause serious harm. I think that deliberately putting someone on a stretcher/whatever and then running away from a fight afterwards is cowardly. That's just me and I fully respect the opposite opinion. However, I don't think that its completely out of line to feel that way, nor do I think that its completely out of line for players on the opposing team to expect him to step up to the plate.
I don't think Kronwall is trying to lay the guy out like that, though. He doesn't come from the side, he stays on his feet, his elbow stays down...other than either stepping back and letting Voracek lug the puck up the ice or going WAY low on the guy, Kronwall doesn't have a lot of options that are likely to end well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StandingCow
Flyers fan just coming in to say, clean hit. JV needs to keep his head up. Hopefully he will be ok.
Kronwall's name is fitting, he is a brick wall.
Thanks. I think all of us are hoping Voracek's okay. Good game last night.
I think it's pretty hard to believe that Kronwall doesn't try to hurt people.
I've seen people claim that Kronwall "hits to hurt, not to injure," but I think they're just sort of making that crap up.
You don't hit that hard unless you're trying to inflict pain.
I think Kronwall will get a game or two. I think once on bad boys' list, he's going to need to alter the way he hits a bit. He needs to hit through people, not explode up, to do a better job avoid high hits that will get him in trouble.
This backward hitting thing...I'm not sure how reliable that can be if your goal is to avoid contact with the head.
Bob; you are not an unintelligent person so my only assumption is that you are working the board and getting your kicks out of this.
This by definition was a legal check. Voracek was not in a vulnerable position, hell he even looked up and saw Kronwall coming and then CHOSE to look back down at the puck and lower his stance. Kronwall at no time during the hit left his feet or made contact with Voracek with his elbows.
If you have played hockey and I assume you have from your "Destroyed a Guy" comment you will understand that once you are committed and in motion to hit an opposing player it is extremely difficult to pull out of that check.
Kronwall is not a dirty player, he does not "Hit to Hurt" he hits to stop the other player advancing and that has been part of the game since the beginning. The fact is that nobody else likes it because he does it better than anyone else in the league and he does it cleanly.
You proposing that Kronwall should have to fight after every check he makes or that in some way this makes him less of a man is preposterous, that’s like saying if you do a good job at work and it makes a coworker feel bad you should have to drop your brief case and duke it out.
If Kronwall is suspended by Shanahan it will be because Shanny has no backbone and he doesn’t want to be seen as if he is giving favoritism to the Wings.
flyers fan coming in peace. kronwall's hit, although amazingly violent to watch was also a sound, clean hockey check.
i really wish voracek wouldhave had his head up, becaue then there would have been no discussion about the hit, but instead he "pulled a lindros" and got caught by one of the best open ice check makers in the game.
i'm glad that the oganization did the right thing and waited for the wings to come to town to retire good ol number 2 last night, bc that ceremony was the epitome of class from both hockey clubs! good luck with the rest of the season guys! hope to see you in the finals!
most of his hits are clean but dangerous.. he usually hit players with head down or vulnerable position. and always turn his back too when hit, hardly see that in hockey..
and seems like he never answer the bell too.. that's the only thing i don't like about him..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone
Yup I do agree with the basics of what your saying Capt. I love Kronner but his hits are predatory in nature. I've done it. You see a guy with his head down and start licking your chops. It is pretty dirty but almost instinctive to the game. May be fighting is the way to hold a player accountable.
I think he did too! He had a nervous look on his face and made several mistakes after. In fact the whole team did. There was a clear shift in the energy of both teams because of the hit. We started playing soft, almost like we're feeling guilty. Flyers start raging and taking out their agression on the entire team, like a lion let out of a cage. When a teammate does something everyone has to answer for it. I had to wonder if we lost the game because of that check.
Personally I hate to see a player look crippled from a hit. It was lot like Horton in the finals last year. I always feel a little sick- I can't imagine anyone would enjoy watching that. Will Kronwall think twice and let up a little next time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Densin219
So u guys mean a player can carry the puck and go coast to coast with his head down all the way, and no one is allowed to hit him because if you do hit him with his head down, it's considered unethical, dirty and taking advantage of the other player??? That's nice. I think we will start seeing 30 goals each game if that's the case.
Give up a legal hit? That's like telling your D not to hit at all. Let the other team skates past you freely! How fun!
I don't like the idea that guys who throw good hits should have to fight. Stuart is the best checker on the team, imo, and it really pisses me off when he gets jumped for laying down a great LEGAL check.
I do think though that Kronner is more predatory. He doesn't check nearly as much as Stuart, for example. Stu has several types of checks he throws. Kronner is known for this one type of hit. It is almost required for the opposing player to be vulnerable for it to have the impact it does. It's a tough call though. You can't let the forwards buzz past you if you're the defender. It is one hockey play as an option. Consider someone like Lidstrom who has never thrown an open ice hit, so we know there may be other options.
In this case, I kind of feel like Kronwall's hit cost the team the game. In that sense, it wasn't worth the 'wow' factor at all. The team had to hunker down after that and watch out for cheap shots. The hit may have been legal, but I've decided that it was unnecessary.
If the Wings were affected by the hit, I think it was from watching the violent spasm Voracek had. I can imagine most of them thinking, "Oh ****. This guy could die out there. That was hard to watch." You don't know if he broke his neck, or head hitting the ice, if he'll have to taken off in a stretcher. Watching a violent physical reaction is disconcerting to anyone who sees it. They also may have been worried for their teammate. Kronwall looked upset after the hit, I think, because he too saw how Voracek was affected. I don't think he intends to have THAT happen, and he may change his style after this particular incident. I think we may see him pulling up a bit because I doubt he wants to watch something like that again.
The NHL is in a tough spot. Hockey can be a violent sport. Hitting is allowed. Fighting is allowed. The conundrum is that players have heads, and heads don't do well when impacted. How do you get rid of the things that can lead to concussions when you have a physical, potentially violent sport? The line has been blurred with the "head is the principle point of contact" decisions. Going back to Brendan Smith's hit, he didn't set out to target the head. The body positions of the two players yielded that result. Kronwall's hit will be even tougher on them because it was N-S, straight on, with the opposing player being fully aware that a defender was in front of him. Yet, the head was the principle point of contact (duh).
I really wonder how they're going to handle this because they've created that opening. The downside is that you get into an area very quickly where open ice hitting is going to go the way of the dodo bird.
Bob; you are not an unintelligent person so my only assumption is that you are working the board and getting your kicks out of this.
You must be new He should really just change his name to "captain contrary".
I like Voracek a lot, he's a great kid. But the hit was legal, he had his head down when he shouldn't have. No, I don't expect Kronwall to fight for a legal hit, shesus. If the entire team is focused on how much they hate Kronwall (while all the forwards are worried about making the highlight reel on their backs) then he's done his job.
If he throws an illegal hit or starts kneeing or throwing elbows, yes, I expect him to answer for that. But for a legal hit, whether Bob deems it 'dirty' or not, hell no. Put a forward on their shell, make them think about it and try to score. As much as Philly would have loved to strangle Kronwall last night, and they would have if they could, they did something much worse (even if they didn't agree at the time). They beat us.
To me, the contact to the head was accidental because he (Kronwall) had his head turned when he delivered the hit and he hit Voracek with his shoulder rather than sticking out his elbow. Kronner doesn't have the rep of being a head-hunter...he just hunts for big hits along the near boards around the blue line. I'm trying to not show bias but it doesn't appear to be a dirty hit...it had incidental contact with the head.
Posted by FUGU: The NHL is in a tough spot. Hockey can be a violent sport. Hitting is allowed. Fighting is allowed. The conundrum is that players have heads, and heads don't do well when impacted. How do you get rid of the things that can lead to concussions when you have a physical, potentially violent sport? The line has been blurred with the "head is the principle point of contact" decisions. Going back to Brendan Smith's hit, he didn't set out to target the head. The body positions of the two players yielded that result. Kronwall's hit will be even tougher on them because it was N-S, straight on, with the opposing player being fully aware that a defender was in front of him. Yet, the head was the principle point of contact (duh).
I agree with what you are saying entirely, my question is when do we hold a player responsible for his own actions? Every players responsibility should be his own safety first. When Voracek saw Kronwall coming he should have not made the decision to lower his stance and look back down at the puck. Kronwall made a decision to levy the check and after that he was 100% commited to the hit and it was Voracek that decided the point of contact by adjusting his position.
I am glad Voracek wasn't severly injured but at some point we have to hold every player responsible.
Every players responsibility should be his own safety first.
This may be a stretch of analogy but if you run into traffic...is your responsibility to avoid being hit by a car or for the cars to avoid you when you should've waited to cross when it was safe?
Voracek should be able puckhandle without the fear of being decapitated but he should have the awareness an opposing player will come up to hit you take you off the puck. Certainly, he's not looking to initiate contact...he wants the path of least resistence out of his defensive zone.
The most ridiculous part of this whole thing is that players should know who is on the ice and what they should or should not do while those players are on the ice. If this clown didn't know that Kronwall is going to destroy you if you come up the boards with your head down then maybe you should reevaluate your game and maybe watch a shred of film. Its not as if Kronwall came into the league yesterday.
didnt watch the game, dont have much time to write but i just logged in to say loved that hit.
This is hockey. Just like MMA and boxing, you accept and agree to the consequence of losing and being stupid.
Just because you are stupid and I did something completely legal, I should be wronged and do something illegal (ie fighting) to explain why I knocked the **** out of you.
Voracek should be able puckhandle without the fear of being decapitated but he should have the awareness an opposing player will come up to hit you take you off the puck. Certainly, he's not looking to initiate contact...he wants the path of least resistence out of his defensive zone.
Would make a good avatar... "Kronwall: Not the path of least resistance".
This may be a stretch of analogy but if you run into traffic...is your responsibility to avoid being hit by a car or for the cars to avoid you when you should've waited to cross when it was safe?
Voracek should be able puckhandle without the fear of being decapitated but he should have the awareness an opposing player will come up to hit you take you off the puck. Certainly, he's not looking to initiate contact...he wants the path of least resistence out of his defensive zone.
No he should not!! Unless he wants to play on a womens team or in a beer league where there is no checking allowed.
He knows that this game involves checking, this is why the first rule you teach young hockey players is to skate with your head up. Learn to handle the puck without looking at it and you won't have to worry about getting hit.
Voracek should be able puckhandle without the fear of being decapitated but he should have the awareness an opposing player will come up to hit you take you off the puck. Certainly, he's not looking to initiate contact...he wants the path of least resistence out of his defensive zone.
Why?
__________________
From a GM, "Detroit is the best team we've played this year. It's not even close. Their puck control is incredible...You have to hope your goalie has a great night to give you a chance."
This may be an illegal check under Bettman's NHL, but as a hockey hit in general, it is just purely beautiful. It's incredible that Kronwall was able to establish that Voracek had his head buried in the puck and then on top of it be able to pivot and line him up perfectly in the amount of time he had. Voracek treated the play extremely lackadaisically and deserved every ounce of the hit he recieved. Pens fan here, hate the wings, but again, beautiful hit by a spectacular and underrated player.
This may be an illegal check under Bettman's NHL, but as a hockey hit in general, it is just purely beautiful. It's incredible that Kronwall was able to establish that Voracek had his head buried in the puck and then on top of it be able to pivot and line him up perfectly in the amount of time he had. Voracek treated the play extremely lackadaisically and deserved every ounce of the hit he recieved. Pens fan here, hate the wings, but again, beautiful hit by a spectacular and underrated player.
Debatable. I don't think Kronwall attempts to injure, as evidenced by his "turn his back" style of hitting. If he really wanted to punish, he'd lay the shoulder.
That said, Kronwall hits like a truck and his style of play is going to be under fire if the NHL is serious about reducing concussions.
There is no intent to injure during this play. It's pretty much a textbook open ice hit. Voracek is dumb and leads with his head. How is Kronwall supposed to know that Voracek has no hockey sense and as a result Kronwall shouldn't play hockey and make a clean hockey hit? Trust me, if Kronwall led with his shoulder or elbow Voracek's season would be over. Voracek is lucky Kronwall isn't that type of player.
Based on all the whining I wouldn't be surprised if the NHL completely bans open ice hits. The idea players need to police the game is laughably stupid. All you have to do is look at Matt Cooke who was one of the most notorious head hunters prior to this season. The rules have changed and suspensions are being given for targeting the head and as a result Cooke hasn't made those types of dangerous hits.
So hey, I guess we'd all be happy if the NHL just made open ice hits illegal, right? We need to protect dumb hockey players like Jakub Voracek. NBA here we come.
According to Karsh and Anderson on 97.1 the Ticket. The NHL have reveiwed the hit and there will be no supplimental discipline handed down to Kronwall.
I loved the hit. I think people like Bob here who seem to believe that every big, clean hit needs to turn into a 5 minute penalty are [mod].
Those dudes just want to see fights. They're functioning under some kind of absurd code from the 70's.
Brandon Dubinsky just hurt his hand fighting. Wow, that's great for the Rangers. What a smart play by Dubinsky to 'stand up for himself'. I'm sure the benefit of having that fight will surely outweigh him being either our or limited for an extended period of time.
The merits of fighting with regards to the actual outcome in a hockey game are debateable. There is an argument to be made whether a fight helps a team, hurts their opponent or has no real impact and just ends up being fun for the fans. The merits of having the best dman on the team (as it is) fighting just because he laid a guy out are not.
It is stupid. The absolute best case scenario results in said dman going off for 5 whole minutes, just for hitting a dude. The worst case scenarios start from getting dinged and proceed to getting concussed and out for a long time.
And IMO the particularly amusing bit about Bob's 'fight everybody for anything' screeds is that he ostensibly is concerned about a decrease in hitting in hockey. Hey, I wonder if he's considered that having to drop the gloves 90% of the time you put a big hit on a guy might, you know, reduce the amount of hitting in the NHL?
Or the idea that Zetterberg needed to be suspended for putting a hand on a guy's back in a race for a puck along the boards where the guy lost an edge and was injured.
MOD
Last edited by Fugu: 03-07-2012 at 10:52 AM.
Reason: PM
According to Karsh and Anderson on 97.1 the Ticket. The NHL have reveiwed the hit and there will be no supplimental discipline handed down to Kronwall.
I'd be kinda surprised by this. I'd kinda like to see Shanny release a video about why it isn't worthy of a suspension.
According to Karsh and Anderson on 97.1 the Ticket. The NHL have reveiwed the hit and there will be no supplimental discipline handed down to Kronwall.
Pretty much what I expected. Hate Kronwall all you want but he's a clean hitter who hits like a ****ing truck. And that hit resulted in a great scoring chance. I'm happy Voracek wasn't hurt.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: No suppl disc for Kronwall on Voracek. PPOC was head but deemed full body on body hit. Not a hit NHL believes should be out of the game.
He should really just change his name to "captain contrary". 
