Ironically, on pp RNH actually has the higher FO percentage vs Gagner (based on small sample sizes). But I think it is fair to say that this years version of Gagner has been better on the dot than RNH.
That said the frequency at which Ganger takes draws on the pp would mean that over the course of the year he might have won about 5 more pp faceoff than RNH would have if RNH had taken the same number of draws.
Horcoff takes the faceoffs on the PP, not Gagner or RNH so the faceoff argument is moot.
Yes, he's a rookie but he's a rookie that is light years better than Sam on the PP who is a 5 year pro.
I don't even know what you're talking about with the meshing stuff, are you saying that Gagner meshes better than RNH with the higher skilled players?
Also, if RNH is a work in progress on the PP then what is Gagner?
This is a controversy because you seem to think (and i have no idea why) that Gagner is a better fit for the top unit than RNH.
Other than my last post to Fourier in which I delineate some roles I didn't state anything like that. Its only that until a rookie learns a bit more about the very difficult center role that theres time to wait. Why throw everything on RNH's lap simultaneously?
How is that good for his development?
Theres no doubt at all who the better player is. Its RNH of course. I never said different.
LOL@ they are padding Gagner's pts so the can get better value for him The pp went from 3rd to 1st with him on the top unit, even though I agree RNH should be on the 1st there not going to tinker with what is working. If it starts to struggle bet your bottom dollar RNH moves to 1st unit. Boy there must of been a sale on tinfoil.
I still think Horc - Ebs - Nuge - Hall - Dman (used to be potter) was our best PP. Horcs took the draws and stood in front while the kids went to work.
Other than my last post to Fourier in which I delineate some roles I didn't state anything like that. Its only that until a rookie learns a bit more about the very difficult center role that theres time to wait. Why throw everything on RNH's lap simultaneously?
How is that good for his development?
Theres no doubt at all who the better player is. Its RNH of course. I never said different.
I'm just saying that it's better for the development of the player and the team for that matter to put players in a position to succeed and to get the most out of their abilities.
I actually like Gagner 5 on 5 this season but on the PP, he simply doesn't hold a candle to RNH. My point is that RNH's biggest strength right now is setting up in the offensive zone with time and space so by limited his PP minutes and playing him with lesser players and additionally, a player with a similar skillset in Hemsky who sets up in the same area as RNH, it limits his ability to produce at the highest level.
He has more than twice as many goals as Hemsky and one less than Gagner.
If hes in the bottom 6 he's not here to score goals. I think someone like Langenbrunner or Fedotenko would look a hell of a lot better in that role then Jones does. If we want to beat the best we have to give lines certain jobs. Right now the 3rd line thinks it's main objective is to score and were giving up chances against because of it.
I'm just saying that it's better for the development of the player and the team for that matter to put players in a position to succeed and to get the most out of their abilities.
Except that it isn't at all. Its better for the 18yr old player in the longrun if you don't overwhelm them immediately with every challenging role possible.
You can say what you want. Developmentally speaking you're wrong.
Its good to give a player a look at all of their future roles which the Oilers have done. To expect the same 18yr old to lead you in all of these tasks all year is a recipe for burnout.
Any idea of at what point in the game you recall Smid potentially laughing on the bench about not getting a penalty? I want to go over the game and see if I can find it.
Any idea of at what point in the game you recall Smid potentially laughing on the bench about not getting a penalty? I want to go over the game and see if I can find it.
I thought it was the 3rd period. I didn't PVR the game so I can't check back. Anyway the camera goes right up to Smid on the bench seen chatting about it after the play. He seemed to be pretty animated and smiling.
Last edited by Replacement: 03-07-2012 at 04:28 PM.
Except that it isn't at all. Its better for the 18yr old player in the longrun if you don't overwhelm them immediately with every challenging role possible.
You can say what you want. Developmentally speaking you're wrong.
Its good to give a player a look at all of their future roles which the Oilers have done. To expect the same 18yr old to lead you in all of these tasks all year is a recipe for burnout.
I wouldn't say he'd be overwhelmed.
I think the frustration of watching the PP, for him, far outweighs any frustrations while playing on the PP.
Not allowing him to do something he does at an elite NHL level probably doesn't give him a lot of confidence either, I'd assume.
Should I play the strawman game the way posters have been playing it with me on this thread?
So you're saying you think he lacks confidence?
See, that doesn't add anything to the discussion and we're all surmising. None of us know the exact reasoning.
I see it as perfectly legitimate that the org might be pacing out RNH's role. seems a pretty reasonable course of action to take.
I doubt very much that he's frustrated with his season or having a bad experience in anyway.
I do think that this is becoming crazy time on hf and we're running out of meaningful things to argue and complain about.
You gotta know that when I'm the one stating this its strange times..
Huh? How is that a strawman?
You disagreed that it would be better for RNH's development.
I would argue confidence plays a huge factor in development.
Putting RNH in a position where he's very good and where he knows he can help the team would easily boost his confidence. And no, I'm not saying he lacks confidence. He could be very confident and still get more confident.
I made the strawman argument. Just as illustration of the last several pages of dialogue from posters pointing out something I never stated. Never said you made a strawman argument. I was just being tongue in cheek with that.
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You disagreed that it would be better for RNH's development.
I would argue confidence plays a huge factor in development.
Putting RNH in a position where he's very good and where he knows he can help the team would easily boost his confidence. And no, I'm not saying he lacks confidence. He could be very confident and still get more confident.
He's a great player and he'll be fine. I just don't see the sense in giving him more than his share to do this season.
I think he'll have more to do next season.
I think the right balance has been struck with RNH this year, Oil kept him up with the big club which was a good learning experience, but the team didn't expect everything at once.
He's a great player and he'll be fine. I just don't see the sense in giving him more than his share to do this season.
I think he'll have more to do next season.
I think the right balance has been struck with RNH this year, Oil kept him up with the big club which was a good learning experience, but the team didn't expect everything at once.
Personally, I think it would make more sense to cut back his ES time and give him the majority of PP time(even though that's been as scarce as hen's teeth lately).
Well definitely the second one. Yeah it's mainly Dubnyk's fault for coughing it up like that, but Peckham was they guy that got back there and did absolutely nothing to prevent the goal.
And if you actually watched the game, you'd see that he still panics the instant you put pressure on him if he has the puck in his own zone.
*high five* Right on the money, Peckham was, is and always will be a sh**ty hockey player. I'm sorry, i love his character, but he just plain sucks man
I'm not saying Peckham's perfect. He's a physical 6-7 who should never touch the puck or play against top level competition, but seeing a -2 stat line and reading the game thusly seems a might ignorant. Then again, judging by CardMonkey83's response to me, I think it's safe to assume he's not exactly the "thoughtful" type.
Haha. So, just because I read the stats, I didn't watch the game? From this, it's safe to assume, Truth Movement lacks 'common sense'.
I could actually buy 1) as even though I like Gagner it is my personal opinion that he is not the right sort of complementary player to go forward with.
2) Makes no sense if the pp has Hall, Eberle, Horcoff and Gagner as fixtures.
They are also the key parts of a PP that was awful last season. They're also the primary parts of a PP that is still playing pretty darn well. So who knows.
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I'm just saying that it's better for the development of the player and the team for that matter to put players in a position to succeed and to get the most out of their abilities.
If getting points is the measurement of successful player development, then people like Jimmy Carson and Rob Brown would have had illustrious careers in the NHL. I'm sure they had high confidence too!
I agree that it's all about putting people in a position to succeed. What "success" is, is not necessarily an easy thing to simply look at. What you've described is more along the lines of "It's best for the team's win-loss record." There's a lot of things that can be good for a person's development than just putting them in a position that they already are proficient at.
When they talk about putting people in the position to succeed regarding development, they more mean "making sure success is possible." I will get nothing playing 1 on 1 vs Michael Jordan in basketball. It'll be challenging as heck, so much so to the point where I'm in over my head and will never be able to achieve any success metric. Even if I have an iron will confidence and don't get discouraged, I still don't get to apply very much because Jordan is just that much better than me.
Personally, I think it would make more sense to cut back his ES time and give him the majority of PP time(even though that's been as scarce as hen's teeth lately).
I'd only do that if he's clearly struggling at ES and his confidence seems to be affected as well.
Manage his matchups and make sure he's going out there against the people that you want him to for the purpose of his development. Heck, it looks like only Eberle and Gagner played more ES minutes.
I'd only do that if he's clearly struggling at ES and his confidence seems to be affected as well.
Manage his matchups and make sure he's going out there against the people that you want him to for the purpose of his development. Heck, it looks like only Eberle and Gagner played more ES minutes.
Yeah, I agree.
I don't really think he's struggling, but I was just meaning, if management wanted to pace RNH, that's the route I would go.
Except that it isn't at all. Its better for the 18yr old player in the longrun if you don't overwhelm them immediately with every challenging role possible.
You can say what you want. Developmentally speaking you're wrong.
Its good to give a player a look at all of their future roles which the Oilers have done. To expect the same 18yr old to lead you in all of these tasks all year is a recipe for burnout.
I don't see how playing on the pp is overwhelming the kid. He is tremendous with the man advantage. In fact, he is the best I have seen in an Oiler uniform in years. If anything asking him to qb the power play is putting him in a position of comfort.
No doubt he has lots to learn. But isn't that far more true at ES where it is much more likely that he will have to deal with the full spectrum of a center's duties. If you were trying to ease the kids burden you would spot him at 5 on 5 and give him pp time to make his transition easier.
I ahve no problem admitting that part of the reason I feel as I do is that I really love watching the kid manage the pp. He is an artist. As an Oiler fan there are only so many things I can take pleasure in and that is most definitely one of them.
Nice puttting words in my mouth, you know I didn't state anything of the sort.
No, theres not a problem with the PP, there really isn't. I'm not sure what else to say here.
Yes or no answer. Also as for your "there's not a problem so leave it be" mentality, thank God that not everyone shares that ideology or nothing would ever be improved in this world.
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Originally Posted by Replacement
Except that it isn't at all. Its better for the 18yr old player in the longrun if you don't overwhelm them immediately with every challenging role possible.
You can say what you want. Developmentally speaking you're wrong.
Its good to give a player a look at all of their future roles which the Oilers have done. To expect the same 18yr old to lead you in all of these tasks all year is a recipe for burnout.
My bad, I could've swore that I said 1st PP unit and not 1st PK unit or checking line center I would agree that it's asking too much of him if those were the roles that people were clamoring for. Back to 1st unit PP, kid was among the league leaders in PP points at the time of his injury and quite frankly looks like a duck in water on the PP, it's a disservice to the players and the fans to not have him out there especially with as few of PP opportunities as we are getting of late.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Last edited by Bryanbryoil: 03-07-2012 at 08:49 PM.
Yes or no answer. Also as for your "there's not a problem so leave it be" mentality, thank God that not everyone shares that ideology or nothing would ever be improved in this world.
Thank god the pp is fine and doesn't need improving at the moment.
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My bad, I could've swore that I said 1st PP unit and not 1st PK unit or checking linecenter I would agree that it's asking too much of him if those were the roles that people were clamoring for. Back to 1st unit PP, kid was among the league leaders in PP points at the time of his injury and quite frankly looks like a duck in water on the PP, it's a disservice to the players and the fans to not have him out there especially with as few of PP opportunities as we are getting of late.
Serious?
I think all special teams units are high profile in the NHL. With great expectations put on all of them.
Do you guys just tune it out when a teams PP is being resoundingly booed off the ice and including the many times its happened here?
I swear I heard the SJ fans disgusted with their clubs 2 man advantage just last night.
I would say as a general rule a PP performance gets boo'ed more than anything a team does.
I think theres a lot of pressure at least at home in playing on the PP. Fans turn on a unit in one bad shift.
But the bigger issue seems to be the Oilers not getting any PP's period. They had 56secs of PP on this roadtrip. Pretty sure RNH would get some time if we had any PP's. How we supposed to get him out there when we're not getting any?
Also he leads the team still in PPmins/game.
People just arguing about this for the sake of it?
Last edited by Replacement: 03-07-2012 at 10:23 PM.
The pp went from 3rd to 1st with him on the top unit, even though I agree RNH should be on the 1st there not going to tinker with what is working. If it starts to struggle bet your bottom dollar RNH moves to 1st unit. Boy there must of been a sale on tinfoil.
I would agree that it's asking too much of him if those were the roles that people were clamoring for. Back to 1st unit PP, kid was among the league leaders in PP points at the time of his injury and quite frankly looks like a duck in water on the PP, it's a disservice to the players and the fans to not have him out there especially with as few of PP opportunities as we are getting of late.
