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Since Carey Price, goalies are drafted lower than pre-lockout. Teams realize it doesnt worth it as much as when the UFA age was 30yo.
We are far from the Lethonen, Fleury, Dipietro era, all taken in the first 2 overall.
That wasn't a very long "era". Goalies have always been drafted low. IIRC, Luongo was the highest ever drafted goalie at 4th overall... Then it was DiPetro (by the same GM). Lethonen (02), Fleury (03), and Price (05) are the only other high drafted goalies (I'm sure I'm missing someone??).
It looks more like a few season blimp than an era of drafting goalies high... And anything that's first orchestrated by Milbury is probably a questionable tactic to begin with
if i was the kings id be interested in the frist and second but i wouldnt want garon (been there done that don't want again) or Radko Gudas the kings have alot of defenseman. Add conally or a equally high wing prospect and its a done deal in my mind.
Lots of speculation surrounding Cory Schneider or Jonathan Bernier to TBL
2012 1st Rd Pick
2013 2nd Rd Pick
Radko Gudas
Cory Schneider
As with all Vancouver proposals: Keith Ballard
I think this is probably reasonable value for Cory Schneider, but all indications are that the Canucks are going to want a young roster player rather than picks and prospects. Before we picked up Zack Kassian, I thought Brett Connolly would be a target (and may still be), but
At this point Keith Ballard is a salary dump. It's a shame, because I think he is a very good defenseman and he was finally starting to play well within our system. But he is not going to supplant Edler, Salo (if he re-ups) or Bieksa as a puck mover and defensively he is not a top pairing shut down guy. If he comes back from his concussion and plays well in the playoffs he could improve his value, but at this point he is neutral to negative.
The value in the deal is the 2012 first rounder. The pick is likely to be in the #8 to #12 range. But I think the deal probably turns on Radko Gudas.
Gudas, as an overage draft pick is probably more NHL ready than other picks from the 2010 draft, but he is still unproven. Compared to existing Canucks defensive prospects he probably fits in as a more developed version of Yann Sauve. If the Canucks scouting staff deem that Gudas is ready to step into a #5 through #7 spot on our defense (with Ballard gone). He brings a different skill set than either Gragnani or Tanev.
As far as the Canucks needs looking forward:
A young defensvie defenseman on an entry level contract. Must have above average skating ability and bring a physical edge. We don't really need a puck mover or high offensive potential as we have Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Gragnani and Connauton in the system. Gudas could potentially fill this role if he is NHL ready. Chris Tanev is currently the stay at home guy on the bottom pairing and the Canucks are very high on him because he plays with such poise and composure, but he's a bone rack and not capable of handling more physical forwards.
A center with size and skill. With the Hodgson trade, we lost depth at center. Pahlsson, Malhotra and Lapierre have very limited offensive upside and we have only Schroeder in Chicago who is anywhere near NHL ready (and he's a 5'9" smurf). With a high draft pick, a guy like Brendan Gaunce would be a great fit.
A backup goalie. Eddie Lack has come a long ways, but we need someone who can play 20-25 games with confidence.
We don't need all these things in one deal and they can come via a trade, draft or UFA signing. The goalie will likely be a UFA and Lack will get a chance to compete for the spot in training camp.
But looking at all those goalies taken high, they look like it was appropriate. All had some solid success while young, and aside from DiPietro who had his career derailed by injuries, they kept up that performance over a long period. Certainly not the only way to get great goaltending, but the players taken as lottery pick goalies seemed to have played out well.
I'd say Fleury is the one who should have been taken later, but he's also the only one who's won a Cup, and he performed exactly as his team needed (young goalie who can step in immediately and keep the team in games).
That's allegedly what he was offered and turned down. Draw from that what you will--sounds a bit crazy to me.
Meh, just sounds like he isn't willing to gamble until he gets Quick signed to his next deal at a reasonable price unless he is getting overpaid to gamble.
Right now Lombardi has no compelling reason to move Bernier. It's up to another GM to give him a reason.
That wasn't a very long "era". Goalies have always been drafted low. IIRC, Luongo was the highest ever drafted goalie at 4th overall... Then it was DiPetro (by the same GM). Lethonen (02), Fleury (03), and Price (05) are the only other high drafted goalies (I'm sure I'm missing someone??).
It looks more like a few season blimp than an era of drafting goalies high... And anything that's first orchestrated by Milbury is probably a questionable tactic to begin with
If you look top 15,
Bernier was 11th in 2006.
Pickard was 14th in 2008.
Campbell was 11th in 2010.
The odd numbered years, 2007, 2009 and 2011 didn't have a goalie in the first round.
I don't think the issue is a perceived lack of value in goal tenders, rather, goalies take much longer to develop and it's very difficult to project how an 18 year old goalie is going to develop.
However when you have a goalie that HAS developed, the value is there. In fact, it's fairly obvious that no other position is quite as important to the team. Assuming a team faces on average 30 shots per game, the difference between a .900 and .925 save percentage is the difference between 2.25 and 3.00 GA per game. That's pretty much the difference between a bottom feeder and a contender.
what is wrong with you? kings and Canucks aren't giving up their star goalies for a couple of pissy little draft picks... if 2012 pick is top 7 move to 2013 LOLLOLOLOLOL
That wasn't a very long "era". Goalies have always been drafted low. IIRC, Luongo was the highest ever drafted goalie at 4th overall... Then it was DiPetro (by the same GM). Lethonen (02), Fleury (03), and Price (05) are the only other high drafted goalies (I'm sure I'm missing someone??).
It looks more like a few season blimp than an era of drafting goalies high... And anything that's first orchestrated by Milbury is probably a questionable tactic to begin with
Maybe i am wrong but i think the new CBA changed the value of drafting a goalie in the first round. just look at all the goalie drafted in the first round.i definitely see a trend....
2005: Price 5th, Rask 21st
2006: Bernier 11th, Helenius 15th, Varlamov 23rd, and Irving 26th
2007: No goalies drafted in first round
2008 pickard 18th, Mccollum 30th...Markstrom taken 31st
2009: No Goalies drafted in 1st round
2010: Campbell 11th, Visentin 27th
2011: No goalies drafted in 1st round
7 years Post lockout:
0.14 goalies taken in the top 10 per years
0.57 in the top 15
1.42 in the first round.
8 years before the lockout:
1.125 goalies taken in the top 10 per year.
1.333 in the top 15
2.44 in the 1st round
And the last 5 years:
0 in the top 10
0.20 in the top 15
0.8 in the first round.
In the old CBA, drafting a Bernier and Schneider was more interesting since they could get more time before they reach UFA.
Goalies are often ready to be a NHL starter around 25yo, so teams hesitate to spend a first round pick on goalie who could play less than 100 games with them before they reach UFA status.
Yes we are but what's the connection between what I said and this information ?
I think your question ''why draft a goalie so High'' was a very pertinent one, teams indeed asked themselves this question and their conclusion was: they should not draft goalies as high as before. They indeed prefer to have a forward/defenseman who can play more games with them before they reach UFA.
At least its my theory. The next few draft will be interesting.......
And a new CBA putting the UFA age back to 29yo could change Schneider and Bernier value a lot.
The original post, the 2 firsts and a second for Schneider, I'd take and run with. If the pick is a top 10, then sure, I'm still interested for the current OP. Long story short though, one of the other Canuck posters brought up a list of needs for our organization:
A young skilled center with size and a young defensive Dman prosect, both on cheap or entry level contracts, and a back up goaltender capable of filling in for upto 20 games a season.
I will look the other way when it comes to a high first round draft pick, as we would then have carte blanche for what we need to draft. In place of a second, I'd rather take a comparable player or even a prospect. I am unsure who the prospect being offered is, so I'd rather someone else I'm familiar with.
Backpedaling by the Canuck's fans...I hope someone bumps this thread back up when he's traded
Count on it. Of course it would help if you went on the record with the value you think he is going to get in a trade. I'll go first so you can take the under....
from Tampa:
1st round + (higher of the two firsts) OR...
Connolly +
from Columbus:
1st round + (lower of the two firsts)
from New Jersey
1st round ++
from Washington
1st round +
from Toronto
Schenn + OR
1st round +
from Edmonton
MPS ++ OR
Canucks 1st and Schneider for Edmonton 1st
Maybe i am wrong but i think the new CBA changed the value of drafting a goalie in the first round. just look at all the goalie drafted in the first round.i definitely see a trend....
Blah, blah, blah ... edited for brevity.
You are right that the new CBA has altered the value in drafting goalies. It's a fairly observable trend. However, as it relates to this thread, that doesn't mean that the value of a fully developed NHL goal tender is any less. The guys that have survived and thrived through the development process are as valuable or moreso than positional players.
When you are acquiring a Cory Schneider or a Jonathan Bernier at this point, you are not acquiring the risk that after 3 or more years of development they turn out to be less than advertised.
The value of Cory Schneider will be a pick and a prospect. If the pick is a high first rounder, the prospect will be higher risk / less NHL ready. If the pick is a late first or early 2nd, the prospect will be a top tier player who is NHL ready.
If anyone wants to see Bernier in action, he's slotted to start vs CLB Thus night. He'll probably only get one or two more starts after this, as Quick will carry the workload the rest of the way (as he's done the whole season).
I dont think Schneider will get amazing return for Vancouver. I'm sure other GMs know that Gillies basically needs to trade him or he'll get offer sheets from the dozen teams in need of a goaltender.
Bergeron + 2012 first for Schneider?
I'd do that. But change the first to Detroits, and add one of our seconds.
So more like
Bergeron
DET 1st 2012
TB 2nd 2012
for
Schneider
And if the price is so high for Schneider, something like Top Prospect + 1st + as much as Canuck fans think, why not just pay the compensation for RFA? If this year you go to Schneider and offer 3.5-4 mill for him, his compensation would be a 1st and 3rd I think. Van won't end up paying 3.5 to 4 for a backup, and the cost becomes a 1st + anyway. Plus a team with Schneider in net becomes an instantly better team in net which would probably lower the 1st round pick too.
