Erik Karlsson is fantastic offensively, but I have seen him play pretty badly in his own end and while neither Chara or Weber are as good offensively as he has been this year, he is nowhere near the defensive player those guys are.
I just get the feeling that in the playoffs, whoever the Sens play, is going to try and key on Karlsson and hit him as much as they can. They have to catch him first though. I am looking forward to see what he does in the playoffs, but I would take Chara and Weber over him in that order. Everyone else is after those 3.
Certainly not bad stats compared to the other two. 5 on 5 analysis only.
Not saying stats tell the full story, but at least in terms of tangible results on odds of winning, the other two don't seem to be head and shoulders above him in terms of preventing goals.
EDIT: Should be noted that to calculate save percentage of goaltender when off I used current rosters with defenseman who have played more than 10 games, and excluded players who were traded from another team (because their numbers aren't reflective of the team they currently play on).
Also, since people seem to love to compare Karlsson to Green even though it makes no sense whatsoever, here is Green's numbers from 2010. Note that I'm not sure if he played on the shutdown pairing or not, nor do I remember who his defensive partner was, but he was 3rd in QoC so I assume he was 2nd pairing, if I'm wrong I apologize.
Note the GA OFF - GA ON of Green versus the other 3 despite not facing top units (again, 3rd in QoC). Staggering.
Karlsson is far and away the best offensive defenseman, and is no slouch in his own zone either, but Shea Weber is very good offensively and a beast defensively. Norris, I think this year Karlsson deserves to win it, but If I had to pick either of the two to build my team around, I'd pick Weber no question, even though he is about 5 years older.
If you're talking about year over year it's Chara, Lidstrom and INEC. Weber and Sute are on the path to having a decade of top tier to elite work. I prefer Suter over Weber personally but I digress. Karlsson hasn't been in the league long enough to be considered in the class of those 4 at this point in his career.
This year? Karlsson has been the best all around D man. His offensive game doesn't need any explination but his defensive game and key situations that he's been put in shows how much he has improved and how much the coaching staff and team trusts him without the puck.
All in all, because of age, experience, and overall ability, I choose Chara.
All in all,
TOP 50 players voted by players (THN):
1. Sidney Crosby
2. Pavel Datsyuk
3. Claude Giroux
4. Steven Stamkos
5. Jonathan Toews
6. Evgeni Malkin 7. Nik Lidstrom
8. Alex Ovechkin
9. Daniel Sedin 10. Zdeno Chara
11. Henrik Sedin 12. Shea Weber
13. Henrik Lundqvist
14. Tim Thomas
15. Marty St. Louis
16. Phil Kessel
17. Pekka Rinne
18. Jaromir Jagr
19. Corey Perry
20. Henrik Zetterberg
21. Nicklas Backstrom 22. Erik Karlsson
23. Drew Doughty
24. Joe Thornton
25. Ryan Getzlaf
Huge gap between Webber, Chara and Karlsson. I think choice between Weber and Chara goes down to personal preference, but taking everything in account (respect, leadership, personality) I take Chara. I'm biased of course.
With Lidstrom at the top this list losts lot of his credibility.
Certainly not bad stats compared to the other two. 5 on 5 analysis only.
Not saying stats tell the full story, but at least in terms of tangible results on odds of winning, the other two don't seem to be head and shoulders above him in terms of preventing goals.
EDIT: Should be noted that to calculate save percentage of goaltender when off I used current rosters with defenseman who have played more than 10 games, and excluded players who were traded from another team (because their numbers aren't reflective of the team they currently play on).
Also, since people seem to love to compare Karlsson to Green even though it makes no sense whatsoever, here is Green's numbers from 2010. Note that I'm not sure if he played on the shutdown pairing or not, nor do I remember who his defensive partner was, but he was 3rd in QoC so I assume he was 2nd pairing, if I'm wrong I apologize.
Note the GA OFF - GA ON of Green versus the other 3 despite not facing top units (again, 3rd in QoC). Staggering.
I can only tell you what I have seen with my own eyes, and as great as Karlsson is offensively, he just isn't in the company of those other two guys.
I have seen him bail on plays that could result in him getting hit very hard and that's something you never see Chara or Weber do.
His offense sure does bring up his worth though, they guy is playing incredible in that respect, so much so that I would take him right after Chara and Weber.
Although not as dramatic as the difference between Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque, it is a similar comparison. All 3 are high end players, but 2 of them have almost perfect all around games, Karlsson, not so much, he is awesome offensively and leaves something to be desired defensively.
Paul Coffey was great offensively and I remember about 10 times where even as great of a skater as he was, he would get schooled by good offensive players and trip over his own feet. Like I said, it isn't as dramatic as that, but Chara and Weber are far superior all around defensemen while Karlsson id superior offensively.
I don't expect to change anyone's mind because it is subjective, but that is the way I see it.
TOP 50 players voted by players (THN):
1. Sidney Crosby
2. Pavel Datsyuk
3. Claude Giroux
4. Steven Stamkos
5. Jonathan Toews
6. Evgeni Malkin 7. Nik Lidstrom
8. Alex Ovechkin
9. Daniel Sedin 10. Zdeno Chara
11. Henrik Sedin 12. Shea Weber
13. Henrik Lundqvist
14. Tim Thomas
15. Marty St. Louis
16. Phil Kessel
17. Pekka Rinne
18. Jaromir Jagr
19. Corey Perry
20. Henrik Zetterberg
21. Nicklas Backstrom 22. Erik Karlsson
23. Drew Doughty
24. Joe Thornton
25. Ryan Getzlaf
Huge gap between Webber, Chara and Karlsson. I think choice between Weber and Chara goes down to personal preference, but taking everything in account (respect, leadership, personality) I take Chara. I'm biased of course.
With Lidstrom at the top this list losts lot of his credibility.
That list isn't accurate
Malkin>>>>>>Giroux
Malkin>>>Stamkos
Malkin>>>>>>>>>>>>toews
If he finishes the season the way he is playing now, my (homer) vote is for Alex Pietrangelo. He is the number one defense man on the best defensive team in the league. He is also near a ppg in his last 30 games.
Yes he is but I dont expect Detroit fans to understand just how amazing Phaneuf I mean when was the last time they actually saw a great dman like Phaneuf? Thats right never.
TOP 50 players voted by players (THN):
1. Sidney Crosby
2. Pavel Datsyuk
3. Claude Giroux
4. Steven Stamkos
5. Jonathan Toews
6. Evgeni Malkin 7. Nik Lidstrom
8. Alex Ovechkin
9. Daniel Sedin 10. Zdeno Chara
11. Henrik Sedin 12. Shea Weber
13. Henrik Lundqvist
14. Tim Thomas
15. Marty St. Louis
16. Phil Kessel
17. Pekka Rinne
18. Jaromir Jagr
19. Corey Perry
20. Henrik Zetterberg
21. Nicklas Backstrom 22. Erik Karlsson
23. Drew Doughty
24. Joe Thornton
25. Ryan Getzlaf
Huge gap between Webber, Chara and Karlsson. I think choice between Weber and Chara goes down to personal preference, but taking everything in account (respect, leadership, personality) I take Chara. I'm biased of course.
With Lidstrom at the top this list losts lot of his credibility.
Also with that list (if it is the one I am thinking of) they asked 5 players from each team to name the top 5 players and I'm assuming had a point ranking system for each position and calibrated it that way (ie 5 points for 1st, 4 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, 2 for 4th, 1 for 5th). Then a player with 25 1st place votes and 25 fifth place votes would be tied with a player with 50 3rd place votes. Or much more likely (seeing how 50 players at least were voted for as top 5 players), There was a pretty obvious top 3 or 4, and then varying people afterwards only getting one or two votes at a random position.
I can only tell you what I have seen with my own eyes, and as great as Karlsson is offensively, he just isn't in the company of those other two guys.
I have seen him bail on plays that could result in him getting hit very hard and that's something you never see Chara or Weber do.
His offense sure does bring up his worth though, they guy is playing incredible in that respect, so much so that I would take him right after Chara and Weber.
Although not as dramatic as the difference between Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque, it is a similar comparison. All 3 are high end players, but 2 of them have almost perfect all around games, Karlsson, not so much, he is awesome offensively and leaves something to be desired defensively.
Paul Coffey was great offensively and I remember about 10 times where even as great of a skater as he was, he would get schooled by good offensive players and trip over his own feet. Like I said, it isn't as dramatic as that, but Chara and Weber are far superior all around defensemen while Karlsson id superior offensively.
I don't expect to change anyone's mind because it is subjective, but that is the way I see it.
I agree with the bold .
In all seriousness, you're entitled to your opinion, but I watch Karlsson play on a bi-nightly basis and I watch Chara a ton as well (Weber not so much).
Chara is always going to be stronger than Karlsson and he's more positionally sound than Karlsson. But Karlsson is so much faster than Chara and is much better with his stick as evidenced by his massive lead in takeaways.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Karlsson is equal to Chara defensively: I'm not.
But I am saying that their defensive ability is a lot closer than their offensive ability.
For me it's Karlsson this year and it isn't close. I understand you watch him play and you're definitely entitled to your opinion, but at least using all the defensive metrics we have (other than Corsi which I personally question it's value-added) so as to eliminate any subjectiveness or biases that we may have, the players are pretty much indistinguishable.
Again, I'm not making the argument that Karlsson actually IS as good defensively as the other two, but I find that it would be extremely difficult to make the argument that he is substantially worse (ie. worse enough to eliminate his offensive advantage over the two) with those numbers being as they are.
AGAIN, I'll reiterate that the stats don't mean everything when it comes to defensive ability: but when they are as similar statistically as they are, they have to mean something.
People need to accept that the game is changing, and Karlsson is leading the charge on the defensive end. Sure he doesn't intimidate people physically, but I've seen that matter less every passing season. His skill, skating ability and creativity make him the best defenseman in the game today IMO. If I had to chose between Weber, Chara and Karlsson, I'm sure I'd want to take a long time thinking about it since all three have an absolute ability to dominate a game, but in the end it's got to be Karlsson.
Erik Karlsson is fantastic offensively, but I have seen him play pretty badly in his own end and while neither Chara or Weber are as good offensively as he has been this year, he is nowhere near the defensive player those guys are.
The simple argument can be made that they are no where near him offensively.
27 points off.
He does hold a commanding lead in a nearly pure defensive stat, takeaways. This doesn't make him an equal defensive player....it's simply to say he leads a defensive statistic by a near landslide.
The thing people are going to have to get over in regards to Karlsson is that he's a unique player in the game, there is no defensemen in the game that impacts games the same way that he does. If you didn't grow up watching Leetch or Coffey, there's a good chance you aren't going to understand. You've never seen it.
In the past week I've heard Al MacInnis, Paul Coffey, and Mike Keenan support Karlsson for the Norris. As hockey people begin to pay attention to Ottawa for the first time in years...they begin to see what we've been talking about for the last two years. I've heard a lot of Karlsson "hands down" from some of these people.
Just gonna have to think outside the box a little.
Last edited by Minister of Offence: 03-07-2012 at 11:09 PM.
Karlsson is having an unbelievable offensive season. But IMO when you look at the complete game it is Weber - Chara, not even very close for Karlsson.
See my post #26 for a compelling statistical argument against that claim. I will also support those statistics (which are imperfect) with an empirical statement that the gap between Weber/Chara and Karlsson defensively is not even close to as big as that gap offensively.
Thats funny
.
