Erik Karlsson (Now) vs Mike Green (Prime)

[Trap Jesus]

Originally Posted by Sureves

So Karlsson < Chara/Weber because they are better at defense despite being unprecedentedly worse offensively but

Green > Karlsson despite being much worse defensively and almost (point-wise) statistically identical offensively and playing on a much better team.

Consistency at its finest HFboards

Biggest understatement ever?

[Sureves]

Originally Posted by Trap Jesus

Biggest understatement ever?

I don't pretend that stats tell the full story but:





Statistically, the gap between Karlsson over Green seems significantly larger than the gap between Karlsson and Weber/Chara. This being despite the fact that Weber plays with Suter and has Rinne behind him, and Chara has Timmy T. watching his back.

[lebdafor norris]

Sadly, I have to say Karlsson.

[Carlzner]

Originally Posted by Sureves

I don't pretend that stats tell the full story but:





Statistically, the gap between Karlsson over Green seems significantly larger than the gap between Karlsson and Weber/Chara. This being despite the fact that Weber plays with Suter and has Rinne behind him, and Chara has Timmy T. watching his back.

Hey you do realize 2010 isn't Green's prime season that we're talking about, right...?

[xking23]

Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner

Hey you do realize 2010 isn't Green's prime season that we're talking about, right...?

The OP put 08-09 and 09-10 as the 2 "Prime" seasons (where really Green should be closer to his prime years now, but he is injured). So technically, assuming the 2010 is the 09-10 season according to the OP it is his prime years.

[SilverSeven]

Green didnt dominate his peers the way Karlsson is. Not even close.

[ZetterBurger]

lol like Mike Green left his prime. If he could stay healthy he would be in his prime still. Big difference. A players prime isn't 20-25. It's 26-32 give or take.

[ZetterBurger]

Originally Posted by SilverSeven

Green didnt dominate his peers the way Karlsson is. Not even close.

Eh. He kinda did...

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Originally Posted by Sureves

Oh, is that why his team got scored on A LOT more when he was on the ice than when he was off it despite being #3 amongst those "bad defenseman" in quality of competition?

What the **** is this? First off, wrong year. I was talking about 08-09. No idea where that TOI/60 came from, considering he's played over 25 min/game every year for a while now. GA on vs off is a stupid way to compare offensive defenseman. You're completely ignoring his offensive contributions. In 09-10, the year you're looking at, he led all defensemen in GF ON/60 at 4.46, with a GF OFF/60 of just 2.73. Quality of competition also isn't a meaningful stat for those years, as Boudreau wasn't a smart enough coach to match his consistently top defensemen against other teams' top lines.

As for the pairings, he had Shaone Morrisonn in 08-09 and Jeff Schultz in 09-10. Morrisonn is now in the AHL and Schultz is scratched more often than not. Philip Kuba would have been a significant upgrade over either of them.

[Sureves]

Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus

What the **** is this? First off, wrong year. I was talking about 08-09. No idea where that TOI/60 came from, considering he's played over 25 min/game every year for a while now. GA on vs off is a stupid way to compare offensive defenseman. You're completely ignoring his offensive contributions. In 09-10, the year you're looking at, he led all defensemen in GF ON/60 at 4.46, with a GF OFF/60 of just 2.73. Quality of competition also isn't a meaningful stat for those years, as Boudreau wasn't a smart enough coach to match his consistently top defensemen against other teams' top lines.

As for the pairings, he had Shaone Morrisonn in 08-09 and Jeff Schultz in 09-10. Morrisonn is now in the AHL and Schultz is scratched more often than not. Philip Kuba would have been a significant upgrade over either of them.

The TOI is for 5 on 5 ice time. The quality of competition shows that EVEN THOUGH Boudreau put him against lower level competition he STILL got scores on more by .37 per 60 minutes than the rest of his team.

As for his GF ON being best in the league, you don't think that could have anything to do with playing with ovechkin backstrom and semin do you?

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Karlsson shut down Gaborik tonight.

He still sucks defensively.

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Originally Posted by ZetterBurger

Eh. He kinda did...

Green had 3 other players on his team with 110+ 100+ and 80+ points.

Karlsson has 80+ and 60(paces) as the leading 2.

Karlsson did more with MUCHHH less. Not to mention the huge drop off in points in the league in general making Karlsson's play more impressive.

[Novak Djokovic]

Should've watched the Rangers' broadcast tonight, and see what they think about EK's defensive play.

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Originally Posted by Serbian Power

Should've watched the Rangers' broadcast tonight, and see what they think about EK's defensive play.

Exactly.

Karlsson could also have had 2-3 points tonight. Feeding Greening on a 2on1, Michalek and Spezza on a 2on1 and Greening's chance short side.

They were praising him a lot.

[Minister of Offence]

Originally Posted by ZetterBurger

Eh. He kinda did...

Kinda, but not at the same level.

Watching the Rangers defend him tonight was a level of attention I don't know if I've ever seen one Senator player get.

He's literally the focal point of every team's game plan these days. Teams are playing like they are scared of him, and not just a little scared.

You've gotta watch a player consistently over time to get a grip on where he is....and you'd have to have watched the Sens several times since early February to understand the level of play Karlsson is at these days. Mike Green didn't touch this.

[DG]

Originally Posted by cursednumber6

Karlsson. He can smooth out his medicore d pretty easily with a little more effort and experience. Green has not been able to do that........

In fairness, effort is far from Karlsson's problem.

Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner

Karlsson shut down Gaborik tonight.

He still sucks defensively.

He was ALL OVER HIM. His best defensive game all year, I'd say.

[jbeck5]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015

6 more points in 1 less game in 08-09... that should say everything you need to say.

5.83 goals per game in 08-09...5.45 goals per game in 2011-2012...Do the math...it makes up for the 6 points.

I don't know how you can add that the difference in scoring "doesn't matter"

With your flawed logic you think joe juneau in 92-93 was as dominant as crosby in 08-09...because league wide scoring doesn't matter right?

What you need to look at is how good are they compared to their pears...How are they relative to league scoring?

green 08-09:
Goals as a D: 1st... by 8 goals
Assists as a D: 7th... 10 back of first
Points as a D: 1st... by 9 points

karlsson11-12
Goals as a D: 1st..by 2 goals
Assists as D: 1st...by 11 assists
Points as D: 1st...by 23 points

1st,1st,1st beats 1st, 7th, 1st
------------------------------------------
Green 08-09:
Goals: T 27th... 25 back of first
Assist: T 38th...40 back of first
Points: T 28th...40 back of first

Karlsson 11-12:
Goals: T97th...32 back of first
Assists: 3rd...4 back of first
points: T6th...15 back of first

Karlsson takes 2 out of 3...green takes goals easily, karlsson takes assist and points easily.
-----------------------------------
Green 08-09:
Goals on caps: 3rd... 25 back of first
Assists on caps: 4th... 24 back of first
Points on caps: 4th...37 back of first

Karlsson 11-12:
Goals on sens: 4th...16 back of first
Assists on sens: 1st...by 7 assists
Points on sens: 2nd...6 back of first

4th,1st,2nd beats 3rd,4th,4th.

So from this research we've come to the conclusion that Green was a better goal scorer relative to other D. However karlsson was both a better playmaker, and offensive player compared to all the other defenseman in the league. Numbers are shown at the top.

We've also come to the conclusion that Green was the better goal scorer compared to everyone in the league then karlsson. However, once again, karlsson proved to be the better playmaker and better offensive player overall.

We've also come to the conclusion that green had more help offensively by a handful of players who got more points then him bringing his totals up.

So after coming to those conclusions, how can you say green offensively? Green goal scoring wise? absolutely. Green playmaking wise? not a chance. Green overall offense?(goal scoring AND playmaking) not a chance.

And as sureves posted...karlsson is hands down better defensively. Look at takeaways, quality of competition, gf/ga while on the ice vs rest of team...it all favours karlsson.

The only reason i've heard "green" is because he lead D by 8 goals instead of 2? Big deal. That's 1 stat going for green vs douzens going for karlsson. Some people are too narrow minded. If goals is the only thing to determine offense or all around game, then why have polls on who is better, might aswell go on nhl.com and see who has more goals. Embarrassing.

[AmazingNuck]

Originally Posted by jbeck5

5.83 goals per game in 08-09...5.45 goals per game in 2011-2012...Do the math...it makes up for the 6 points.

I don't know how you can add that the difference in scoring "doesn't matter"

With your flawed logic you think joe juneau in 92-93 was as dominant as crosby in 08-09...because league wide scoring doesn't matter right?

What you need to look at is how good are they compared to their pears...How are they relative to league scoring?

green 08-09:
Goals as a D: 1st... by 8 goals
Assists as a D: 7th... 10 back of first
Points as a D: 1st... by 9 points

karlsson11-12
Goals as a D: 1st..by 2 goals
Assists as D: 1st...by 11 assists
Points as D: 1st...by 23 points

1st,1st,1st beats 1st, 7th, 1st
------------------------------------------
Green 08-09:
Goals: T 27th... 25 back of first
Assist: T 38th...40 back of first
Points: T 28th...40 back of first

Karlsson 11-12:
Goals: T97th...32 back of first
Assists: 3rd...4 back of first
points: T6th...15 back of first

Karlsson takes 2 out of 3...green takes goals easily, karlsson takes assist and points easily.
-----------------------------------
Green 08-09:
Goals on caps: 3rd... 25 back of first
Assists on caps: 4th... 24 back of first
Points on caps: 4th...37 back of first

Karlsson 11-12:
Goals on sens: 4th...16 back of first
Assists on sens: 1st...by 7 assists
Points on sens: 2nd...6 back of first

4th,1st,2nd beats 3rd,4th,4th.

So from this research we've come to the conclusion that Green was a better goal scorer relative to other D. However karlsson was both a better playmaker, and offensive player compared to all the other defenseman in the league. Numbers are shown at the top.

We've also come to the conclusion that Green was the better goal scorer compared to everyone in the league then karlsson. However, once again, karlsson proved to be the better playmaker and better offensive player overall.

We've also come to the conclusion that green had more help offensively by a handful of players who got more points then him bringing his totals up.

So after coming to those conclusions, how can you say green offensively? Green goal scoring wise? absolutely. Green playmaking wise? not a chance. Green overall offense?(goal scoring AND playmaking) not a chance.

And as sureves posted...karlsson is hands down better defensively. Look at takeaways, quality of competition, gf/ga while on the ice vs rest of team...it all favours karlsson.

The only reason i've heard "green" is because he lead D by 8 goals instead of 2? Big deal. That's 1 stat going for green vs douzens going for karlsson. Some people are too narrow minded. If goals is the only thing to determine offense or all around game, then why have polls on who is better, might aswell go on nhl.com and see who has more goals. Embarrassing.

By the same logic, you've diminished Heatley, Spezza and Alfredsson's big years.

[jbeck5]

Originally Posted by AmazingNuck

By the same logic, you've diminished Heatley, Spezza and Alfredsson's big years.

We'll obviously. Hasn't history proven me to be right? they were all ppg players playing together which made them get 1.3 ppg together...i thought everyone knew this? They were hovering around a ppg going in(except the younger spezza)and they came out hovering around a ppg.

So yes...playing with offensive superstars helps your offense quite a bit... I thought it was severely obvious unless you're oblivious to reality.

So if you're asking, would i have been more impressed by spezza/heatley/alfredsson putting up those totals without spezza/heatley/alfredsson the answer is yes...yes!YES! The only people who think no is apparently cap fans and a few other ignorant fans...The logic is simple to follow really.

[Sensfanman]

Originally Posted by jbeck5

We'll obviously. Hasn't history proven me to be right? they were all ppg players playing together which made them get 1.3 ppg together...i thought everyone knew this? They were hovering around a ppg going in(except the younger spezza)and they came out hovering around a ppg.

So yes...playing with offensive superstars helps your offense quite a bit... I thought it was severely obvious unless you're oblivious to reality.

So if you're asking, would i have been more impressed by spezza/heatley/alfredsson putting up those totals without spezza/heatley/alfredsson the answer is yes...yes!YES! The only people who think no is apparently cap fans and a few other ignorant fans...The logic is simple to follow really.

I like this guy.

[Minister of Offence]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...ace/53423548/1

Not really relevant to the discussion...but some solid quotes on Karlsson.

ESPN.com columnist Scott Burnside said he recently talked to a couple of pro scouts, who "gushed" about how much impact Karlsson is having on the Senators.

"Every shift he does something that seems to create a scoring chance, something exciting," Burnside said. "And his defensive game has improved appreciably over last year."

He drives this team...and it's taken time for everyone to come to grips with that.

[Twist and Shout]

A defenseman has passed his prime at 26?

Only on HFBoards ...

[DG]

Originally Posted by Subway Schenn

A defenseman has passed his prime at 26?

Only on HFBoards ...

I agree that term is thrown around on here with that definition, but in fairness to the OP, I'm sure he just meant Green's best two seasons to date.

[Viking Mode]

Goals.

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Originally Posted by Sureves

The TOI is for 5 on 5 ice time. The quality of competition shows that EVEN THOUGH Boudreau put him against lower level competition he STILL got scores on more by .37 per 60 minutes than the rest of his team.

As for his GF ON being best in the league, you don't think that could have anything to do with playing with ovechkin backstrom and semin do you?

This isn't NHL '12. The first forward line isn't always on with the first defense line. And since this is just 5 on 5, it isn't counting the PP time he spent with them.

And 3rd in QoC isn't exactly sheltered minutes. There are still 5 semi-regular defensemen getting easier assignments than he is. If anything, it's asset management - saving him for the PP, where he typical spent the whole 2 minutes on the ice. Hence the 25 minutes per game.