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Lindros trade negotiations a look back

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11-22-2004, 03:24 PM
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Lindros trade negotiations a look back

Not looking at the trade that was completed, but the numerous other deals that teams contemplated and offered the Nordiques.

All courtesey of Full Spectrum by Jay Greenberg: The majority of info below were direct quotes from the following: Keenan, Farwell, Jay Snider, Ed Snider and Pierre Page.

June 11, nine days before the draft:

Aubut wanted Ricci, Brind'amour, Hextall, Duchesne, Huffman #1's in '92, '93 & '94 and either Forsberg or Slava Butsayev.

Aubut also wanted options on a number of other players including Claude Boivin for Herb Raglan and Dan Kordic and Steve Finn.

Flyers thought that Brind'amour needed to be kept.

Fast-forward to Tuesday, June 16th, the week of the draft.

10 of the NHL's 24 teams had contacted Quebec indicating interest, but according to Page 5 had dropped before arriving in Montreal for the draft.

Detroit had turned down Quebec's demand for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks.

Calgary offered cash, draft choices, Quebec's choice of MacInnis or Suter plus either Nieuwendyk or Reichel. The Flames dropped out when Quebec asked for more.

Montreal and NewJersey both also dropped out. By Friday it was down to Flyers, Rangers, Blackhawks and Leafs.

In all talks between the Flyers & Nords Ricci, Duchesne and Hextall were included.

Keenan wanted Lindros badly and was prepared to offer anything other than Roenick, but Wirtz refused to include any cash

Chicago's offer was Belfour, Larmer, Steve Smith in a 5 player, 7 pick offer. In return Chicago would get Lindros & three Quebec choices, including Quebec's #1, where Keenan planned to pick Kasparitis.

Quebec though the Chicago offer was the best, and only asked them for $5 million in cash. Wirtz refused to pay, and also didn't want to pay Lindros either.

Toronto had the cash, but not the players. Their offer included Felix Potvin, Wendal Clark, Dave Ellet, Berube multpile #1 picks and $15 million. Toronto would not include Gilmour, which killed the deal.

Aubut finally came to the Flyers and the deal was: Ricci, Hextall, Duchesne, Forsberg, Huffman, 7th overall pick in 92 & the #1 pick in 1993, as well as $15 million.

The Rangers offer Kovalev, Weight, Amonte, Vanbiesbrouck (James Patick would be substitued if Vanbiesbrouck a free agent refused to sign in Quebec), #1 picks in 93, 94 & 96, plus $12 million.

Since the Flyers had used the 7th overall pick in 1992 on Ryan Sittler, the Nordiques argued they neede a replacement.

Bertuzzi awarded them a 1994 #1 pick and Chris Simon.

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11-23-2004, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Not looking at the trade that was completed, but the numerous other deals that teams contemplated and offered the Nordiques.

All courtesey of Full Spectrum by Jay Greenberg: The majority of info below were direct quotes from the following: Keenan, Farwell, Jay Snider, Ed Snider and Pierre Page.

June 11, nine days before the draft:

Aubut wanted Ricci, Brind'amour, Hextall, Duchesne, Huffman #1's in '92, '93 & '94 and either Forsberg or Slava Butsayev.

Aubut also wanted options on a number of other players including Claude Boivin for Herb Raglan and Dan Kordic and Steve Finn.

Flyers thought that Brind'amour needed to be kept.

Fast-forward to Tuesday, June 16th, the week of the draft.

10 of the NHL's 24 teams had contacted Quebec indicating interest, but according to Page 5 had dropped before arriving in Montreal for the draft.

Detroit had turned down Quebec's demand for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks.

Calgary offered cash, draft choices, Quebec's choice of MacInnis or Suter plus either Nieuwendyk or Reichel. The Flames dropped out when Quebec asked for more.

Montreal and NewJersey both also dropped out. By Friday it was down to Flyers, Rangers, Blackhawks and Leafs.

In all talks between the Flyers & Nords Ricci, Duchesne and Hextall were included.

Keenan wanted Lindros badly and was prepared to offer anything other than Roenick, but Wirtz refused to include any cash

Chicago's offer was Belfour, Larmer, Steve Smith in a 5 player, 7 pick offer. In return Chicago would get Lindros & three Quebec choices, including Quebec's #1, where Keenan planned to pick Kasparitis.

Quebec though the Chicago offer was the best, and only asked them for $5 million in cash. Wirtz refused to pay, and also didn't want to pay Lindros either.

Toronto had the cash, but not the players. Their offer included Felix Potvin, Wendal Clark, Dave Ellet, Berube multpile #1 picks and $15 million. Toronto would not include Gilmour, which killed the deal.

Aubut finally came to the Flyers and the deal was: Ricci, Hextall, Duchesne, Forsberg, Huffman, 7th overall pick in 92 & the #1 pick in 1993, as well as $15 million.

The Rangers offer Kovalev, Weight, Amonte, Vanbiesbrouck (James Patick would be substitued if Vanbiesbrouck a free agent refused to sign in Quebec), #1 picks in 93, 94 & 96, plus $12 million.

Since the Flyers had used the 7th overall pick in 1992 on Ryan Sittler, the Nordiques argued they neede a replacement.

Bertuzzi awarded them a 1994 #1 pick and Chris Simon.
Phili should have given Butsayev instead of forsberg!

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11-23-2004, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machoking2003-04
Phili should have given Butsayev instead of forsberg!
Would Colorado have won any of those Cups with Butsayev? Probably not. Would the Western Conference have held the upper-hand for the last ten years or so (save the Devils, and Bolts last year)? Probably not. Would a Forsberg/Lindros combination (though oft-injured) ensured that the Flyers may have some more recent glory days? Wouldn't surprise me, though they still would have needed goaltending.

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11-23-2004, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Detroit had turned down Quebec's demand for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks.
And THANK GOD for that.

Also, is ANYONE surprised Wirtz wouldn't pay the money?

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11-23-2004, 04:33 PM
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i think the rangers deal would have been a pretty good one -and at the time maybe better. i wouldve taken beezer over hextall, and kovy, weight and amonte couldve had just as much impact as the philly trade. i know none of those guys are forsberg, but add them to sundin, nolan, and sakic and youve got an amazing squad. the ranger deal didnt have a stud defensemen (unless they lost the goalie) - so thats were it wouldve hurt them. they really needed an offensive dman to play with sakic and those guys on the pp. the philly trade helped the most because it offered what they needed at every position. and offensive dman, and a depth d. a physical 2/3rd line center and a gritty winger prospect -and what they needed the most...a top goalie. they filled out the whole team in one trade - without even factoring in forsberg. crazy to see what people offered for hyped prospects back then. what would crosby have brought back in those days? is crosby hype less than lindros hype because of the way the lindros trade panned out? i would assume so. its funny how times change.

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11-23-2004, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
crazy to see what people offered for hyped prospects back then. what would crosby have brought back in those days? is crosby hype less than lindros hype because of the way the lindros trade panned out? i would assume so. its funny how times change.
Lindros wasn't just a "hyped" prospect. He was better than Ovechkin and Crosby.

Before the trade Lindros had played in the 1991 Canada Cup, and didn't look out of place at all. Flattened and took Ulf Samuleson right out of the tourney.

Lindros was a top 5 player the moment he stepped on the NHL ice.

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11-23-2004, 05:08 PM
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I remember hearing Neil Smith talk about the Rangers bid for Lindros. He said Aubut's demands were too high. Smith said part of the reason he didn't bid anymore was because at the time the Rangers were in 1st place. In the end it proved to be a good thing the Rangers didn't persue Lindros anymore because Kovalev helped lead them to a cup in 1994, despite his antics.

Is it too broad/ignorant to say that the real loser out of this whole scenario was Philly? (sorry John and other Flyers fans, not trying to troll) Quebec won the trade IMO, Rangers stayed out and got a cup, Montreal and NJ were just a few years away from cups too. The only possible benefactor I can think of, if we lived ina world where "what if's" happened, would be Chicago. Trading Belfour would have been tough but it happened anyways. Maybe things work out for the big E in Chicago. We'll never know...

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11-23-2004, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Plante
I remember hearing Neil Smith talk about the Rangers bid for Lindros. He said Aubut's demands were too high. Smith said part of the reason he didn't bid anymore was because at the time the Rangers were in 1st place. In the end it proved to be a good thing the Rangers didn't persue Lindros anymore because Kovalev helped lead them to a cup in 1994, despite his antics.
The thing was the Rangers did persue Lindros, and they did make a deal with Quebec. The problem was Quebec had traded Lindros to the Flyers BEFORE they traded him to New York.

Aubut was nuts. he made the deal with the Flyers and then a few hours later the Rangers made a "better" offer and he accepted that as well. That's why the whole thing ended up in arbitration.

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11-23-2004, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Plante
Is it too broad/ignorant to say that the real loser out of this whole scenario was Philly? (sorry John and other Flyers fans, not trying to troll) Quebec won the trade IMO, Rangers stayed out and got a cup, Montreal and NJ were just a few years away from cups too. The only possible benefactor I can think of, if we lived ina world where "what if's" happened, would be Chicago. Trading Belfour would have been tough but it happened anyways. Maybe things work out for the big E in Chicago. We'll never know...
I agree for the most part, but the Flyers really didn't end up "losers". When you factor everything into the mix, the Flyers made out pretty well.

They got Lindros for the period they had him. Now they have Johnsson, Kapanen and Brashear.

Also the Wachovis Center was built on Lindros' shoulders. Snider had been trying to get a new arena built for nearly a decade, and couldn't secure the financing. As soon as Lindros was aquired, financing was aquired, because they were able to guaruntee that the Luxurxy Suite and Club boxes would be sold.

Having that new building allowed the Flyers to be one of the NHL's big money teams, and by having that building it later enticed Comcast Cable Co. to purchase the Flyers, which inturn gave them even more $$$$ to spend.

At the time of the deal the Flyers were clearly in the worst shape of any of the teams involved, Nords, Rangers, Blackhawks etc. etc.

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11-23-2004, 10:04 PM
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I find this one trade the most interesting trade in NHL history. Of course I wasn't a fan at the time, and I've only been a fan for the past 10 years, but I could only imagine the waves it sent at the time.

A short book could be written on the topic of the trade and all the ramifications of the trade and what could have happened. It seemed like it reached out to so many teams, and others have pointed out that it has extended to every team in the league since the trade. It'd be a great subsection in an Eric Lindros book, which in itself would be interesting.

I always thought the Rangers offer looked more appealing at the time, but Dave Draper wanted Forsberg or Butsayev in the deal, so obviously he saw something -- not a big shock considering Forsberg was a first round pick in 1991, 6th overall.

I know it happens in every draft, but to think that Falloon, Lachance, and Aaron Ward were drafted above Forsberg... That's part of the reason I have a hard time putting much stock in the draft when you see those guys drafted higher like that.

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11-24-2004, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCoyotes
I know it happens in every draft, but to think that Falloon, Lachance, and Aaron Ward were drafted above Forsberg... That's part of the reason I have a hard time putting much stock in the draft when you see those guys drafted higher like that.
When the Flyers originally drafted Forsberg 6th overall it was a bit of a shock. He was supposed to go much later in the first round, more like the 12-18 spots.

Also there was every reason to draft Lindros ahead of Forsberg, and if Lindros would have been healthy, he'd have had a better career than Forsberg.

When both players were at their best, Lindros was better.

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11-24-2004, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
When the Flyers originally drafted Forsberg 6th overall it was a bit of a shock. He was supposed to go much later in the first round, more like the 12-18 spots.

Also there was every reason to draft Lindros ahead of Forsberg, and if Lindros would have been healthy, he'd have had a better career than Forsberg.

When both players were at their best, Lindros was better.
Yeah, I know that Lindros had a whole other career before he racked up those concussions and started to flake out like now. I saw him a couple of seasons while he was at his peak still. I'm not commenting on the Forsberg - Lindros comparison as much as I am saying how much of a crapshoot the draft is when guys like Scott Lachance and Aaron Ward end up drafted higher than a guy like Forsberg.

On a side note, is it possible for a player in the mold of Eric Lindros to have a longer lasting career as dominant as he was playing that style of hockey? That game has to take a toll on his body, and while you can't blame the injuries that have hurt him most on it, it still makes me beg the question. The power forwards game is often sidelined by injuries, and barring concussions I wonder how long Lindros would have continued to be a top 5 player.

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11-24-2004, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCoyotes
On a side note, is it possible for a player in the mold of Eric Lindros to have a longer lasting career as dominant as he was playing that style of hockey? That game has to take a toll on his body, and while you can't blame the injuries that have hurt him most on it, it still makes me beg the question. The power forwards game is often sidelined by injuries, and barring concussions I wonder how long Lindros would have continued to be a top 5 player.
I think power forwards can have long and successful career, but it does take more of a toll on the body than playing like a Joe sakic for example. Instead of a 20 year career, it might be more along the lines of 15 years.

Without the concussions Lindros still would have missed his 8-20 games a year, with various other injuries, but IMO he would have been among the games very best for 12-15 years.

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11-24-2004, 11:49 AM
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As a Flyers fan John, would you make the trade again if you had the decision?

That's a lot of players and picks to give up for one man. I don't know if I would do it for Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr under the condition of knowing what they would do during their careers let alone doing it with the posibility of a player being injured or living up to his potential.

Gordie Howe consistently played in nearly all of his team's scheduled games. In fact, he did it 17 times before retiring for the first time after the 1970-71 season. And when Hartford joined the NHL for the 1979-80 season, Howe once again played in all 80 games at 51 years of age.

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11-24-2004, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by David Puddy
As a Flyers fan John, would you make the trade again if you had the decision?
Knowing what I know about Lindros' health ?? I wouldn't make the deal.

A few other things to think about however:

The orginal deal that the Flyers made, was far better for the Flyes than what ended up happening.

In the original deal we would have lost the 7th pick in 1992, which we used to take Ryan Sittler, a complete bust.

Because Aubut effed everything up, we were stuck with Sittler and had to give up a #1 in 1994 & Chris Simon.

IMO there is a very good chance that if the Flyers had that #1 pick in 1994, they would have used it in Mattias Ohlund. Quebec usde the Flyers pick to take Wade Belak, Ohlund was selected one pick later. Inge Hammarstrom the Flyer chief Euro scout had/has huge influence on whoe the Flyers draft (he pushed for Forsberg).

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11-24-2004, 01:28 PM
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Worst trade in NHL histroy.

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11-24-2004, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli_The_Don
Worst trade in NHL histroy.
It's not even close. It wouldn't be among the 100 worst deals in NHL history.

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11-24-2004, 03:06 PM
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One thing that often gets overlooked is the money involved, in terms of the percentage of payroll covered by it, is equivalent to something like a $40 million payment today.

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11-24-2004, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
It's not even close. It wouldn't be among the 100 worst deals in NHL history.
Im sorry but Peter Forsberg straight up for Lindros would still be a rip off for the Avalanche.

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11-24-2004, 10:22 PM
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Dam if we didnt trade Forsberg we could have had atleast 2 cups by now.







Here's to Richards and Carter.

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11-24-2004, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
Im sorry but Peter Forsberg straight up for Lindros would still be a rip off for the Avalanche.
Did you start watching hockey in 2001?

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11-25-2004, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PARTY_PERSON
Dam if we didnt trade Forsberg we could have had atleast 2 cups by now.
Not necessarily true at all.

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11-25-2004, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kmad
Did you start watching hockey in 2001?
No smartass I've been watching for over 10 years, and Petr Forsberg is the best player in the NHL besides Jarome Iginla.

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11-25-2004, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Go Flames Go
No smartass I've been watching for over 10 years, and Petr Forsberg is the best player in the NHL besides Jarome Iginla.
I highly doubt that you have been watching hockey for that long, Lindros was an absolute force, and was a much better player than Forsberg could ever be. He could do anything and everything.

Besides Jerome Iginla... well I shouldn't be suprised, most Flames fans can't spell their best players name.... they have only had 6 months to learn it.... I mean they are life long fans....

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11-25-2004, 10:07 PM
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The stakes were just so high all the way back then. WHen the stakes are that high, there's bound to be someone to lose. It really was an interesting time.

I didn't realize the financial boost it gave the Flyers. That puts a whole new spin on it. The flyers have been a big money team for a long time now. I remember sometime in the mid 90's hearing how the Flyers were big spenders with a 45 million dollar salary . How things have changed.

The Forsberg vs Lindros debate is an interesting one, but I think I would have to take Lindros in his prime. As people said he could do it all. The only thing that Lindros never sold me on was his leadership abilities. If he hadn't been thrusted into the role of "the next one" maybe things would have been different. I had heared stories that he wasn't much of a captain, but I don't know if that's fair. I think Eric would have benefited a great deal from having someone like a Yzerman or Sakic on his team. Let the leaders lead, let Eric be great.

The Chicago aspect of this is really interesting aswell. imagine if the Nords had Belfour on their team. They may have pulled it off in 1995. The team stays put and a dynasty is set. If they stay, Patrick Roy never goes to Quebec and is traded somewhere else which leads to a new powerhouse. Crazy

So many possibilities...

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