The RinkFor the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.
so, this hypothetical synthetic cohort "everyone" doesn't have the patience to do 3 sets of 3 exercises 3 times a week, yet somehow have the determination to work through 90 minutes of random exercises 6 days a week? gmafb. .
Yes. Some people do not have the motivation required for a self-directed program.
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every program has a dropout rate. the fact that p90x has sold millions of copies, yet i hardly see anyone on the street who looks like they might be hiding a p90x body under their clothes, pretty much means the dropout rate of p90x is extraordinarily high. i would blame it on the fact that it has TOO MANY redundant exercises that prevents the participants to focus and properly load a since exercise like the squat. but in general the program is ALSO simply too hard to adhere to.
This is one very long string of logical fallacies.
No idea what your bias against P90X stems from but its clear that you aren't going to be swayed in your opinion so I'm done.
You're right that strength training is great for deconditioned people since they will see improvements across all four goals (strength, hypertrophy, muscular power and muscular endurance).
Its a good thing, then, that P90X spends about 70% of the time focusing on strength exercises, 20% on cardio and the rest a mix of flexibility and balance.
Anyways, you have your opinion - that deadlifts and squats are superior to a more balanced program for the average person. I think you're wrong and I don't believe that your reasons are supported by the clinical evidence, but you are totally missing the point:
Some people need the structure and motivation a program like P90X provides. Anything that gets people lifting weights and pumping their heart every day for 3 months will get them in better shape - period. To that end, P90X is a great program, even if you are right and the results aren't as good at the end.
the article you cite is a complete joke. they separate beginners from intermediates depending on how long they've performed any resistance training, don't mention anything about strength levels. for example, a former bodybuilder who hasn't lifted in "several years" would be a novice. L.O.L.
you seem to illogically believe that p90x does not spend 70% on strength training. maybe it intends to, but does it poorly.
motivation and structure are different things. if people's motivation was the problem, i DOUBT they will find it alone in their apartments watching their tv.
i am going to assume that by structure, you mean the programming. say, p90x has several sets of 3-4 different squat variants in their legs segments, most done with dumbells and/or bodyweight. we've covered this in other threads, but there is very little strength benefit to doing almost a hundred reps at very low weight, rather than doing 3 sets of 5 reps at your 5-rep max. if you'd like a citation, you can check out the Starting Strength book.
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Originally Posted by neksys
This is one very long string of logical fallacies.
No idea what your bias against P90X stems from but its clear that you aren't going to be swayed in your opinion so I'm done.
it's not uncommon to see many people try p90x and never actually complete or progress to the end. i know close to a hundred people who tried it (including myself), and i know of only one who finished it (not me) and/or saw significant benefits 90 days after they stopped. if you finished it, you would be the second. those are just not good numbers when evaluating a fitness routine.
the article you cite is a complete joke. they separate beginners from intermediates depending on how long they've performed any resistance training, don't mention anything about strength levels. for example, a former bodybuilder who hasn't lifted in "several years" would be a novice. L.O.L.
you seem to illogically believe that p90x does not spend 70% on strength training. maybe it intends to, but does it poorly.
motivation and structure are different things. if people's motivation was the problem, i DOUBT they will find it alone in their apartments watching their tv.
i am going to assume that by structure, you mean the programming. say, p90x has several sets of 3-4 different squat variants in their legs segments, most done with dumbells and/or bodyweight. we've covered this in other threads, but there is very little strength benefit to doing almost a hundred reps at very low weight, rather than doing 3 sets of 5 reps at your 5-rep max. if you'd like a citation, you can check out the Starting Strength book.
it's not uncommon to see many people try p90x and never actually complete or progress to the end. i know close to a hundred people who tried it (including myself), and i know of only one who finished it (not me) and/or saw significant benefits 90 days after they stopped. if you finished it, you would be the second. those are just not good numbers when evaluating a fitness routine.
I'm sure the OP and everyone else who commented in here are not elite athletes. They want to build some amount of strength and endurance to get better prepared for beer league hockey. Nobody in beer leagues needs to be maxing out their squats and building tree trunk legs. Both programs can help most people in here.
When I played Junior I was 6'2" 215 and a good amount of that was in my legs. Now 25 years later I could never carry that weight anymore and am down to 185. Most of the weight loss was in my legs. I'm not pushing guys out of the crease or fighting for the puck in the corners anymore so I don't need to be at an elite level anymore. I just wanted something that gave me new exercises and made me more fit. Mission accomplished.
I'm sure the OP and everyone else who commented in here are not elite athletes. They want to build some amount of strength and endurance to get better prepared for beer league hockey. Nobody in beer leagues needs to be maxing out their squats and building tree trunk legs. Both programs can help most people in here.
When I played Junior I was 6'2" 215 and a good amount of that was in my legs. Now 25 years later I could never carry that weight anymore and am down to 185. Most of the weight loss was in my legs. I'm not pushing guys out of the crease or fighting for the puck in the corners anymore so I don't need to be at an elite level anymore. I just wanted something that gave me new exercises and made me more fit. Mission accomplished.
Exactly. Hockey isn't very fun when you're gassed after 1, 60> second shift... when you can play at a high level for at least 1 game it suddenly becomes much more enjoyable.
I'm sure the OP and everyone else who commented in here are not elite athletes. They want to build some amount of strength and endurance to get better prepared for beer league hockey. Nobody in beer leagues needs to be maxing out their squats and building tree trunk legs. Both programs can help most people in here.
When I played Junior I was 6'2" 215 and a good amount of that was in my legs. Now 25 years later I could never carry that weight anymore and am down to 185. Most of the weight loss was in my legs. I'm not pushing guys out of the crease or fighting for the puck in the corners anymore so I don't need to be at an elite level anymore. I just wanted something that gave me new exercises and made me more fit. Mission accomplished.
the fact that nobody in beer leagues is an elite athlete, is PRECISELY why they need greater levels of strength first. most of them are simply beginners when they put the bar on their shoulders.
maxing out the squats is relative to your current strength, not relative to what you were lifting 25 years ago.
Exactly. Hockey isn't very fun when you're gassed after 1, 60> second shift... when you can play at a high level for at least 1 game it suddenly becomes much more enjoyable.
you think you can get there with p90x? ok, good luck.
The American College of Sports Medicine is the largest sports medicine and exercise science organization in the world.
The ACSM is made up of more than 40,000 scientists, researchers, scholars and professionals.
The article I cited is the ACSM's current position on resistance training.
The ACSM (and the "complete joke" article I cited) > your opinion.
if you feel that i am stating my opinion, you are wrong. i do nothing but regurgitate the works of giants who actually work and train athletes.
if you feel that ACSM is somehow infallible, you'll be rather disappointed. why don't you address my problem with the first three sentences of its abstract?
if you feel that i am stating my opinion, you are wrong. i do nothing but regurgitate the works of giants who actually work and train athletes.
if you feel that ACSM is somehow infallible, you'll be rather disappointed. why don't you address my problem with the first three sentences of its abstract?
I don't have to. I will take the word of the American College of Sports Medicine over "anonymous guy on the Internet who says he has second information from guys that train guys" any day of the week.
With P90X, there was severe burnout on my part after about a month. Didn't lose any weight, actually gained some, but not all muscle as clothes weren't fitting right. Didn't notice much difference in hockey.
With squats and deadlifts, it was more interesting for me and much less time commitment. Having the focused goals of just increasing poundage is much better suited for me than just completing a workout video. Then again I'm the kind of guy who likes RPG games because of leveling and watching the guy get more powerful. I also have noticed a big change in hockey, my speed, strength, and endurance has improved quite a bit. Also lost 5 pounds of fat and added 3 pounds of muscle and lost 1.5" off the waist without any change in diet over a couple months.
That's my experience as a weaker overweight schlub.
I've been a competitive power lifter for 6 years now, thinking about trying one of these programs.. Recently I've been obsessed with getting my resting heart rate in the 40's, I started a 77 and I'm now at 61 and I've been as low as 56. I really don't want to sacriifice muscle so by reading comments I believe px90 is the better option. Currently I lift 3 to 4 x a week, squat bench and dead with HIIT cardio
I've tried p90 but not insanity. I would have to agree with most of the people here is that it's very easy to get bored of unless you are super committed. The program is very well designed and it's hard for your body to habituate since you are constantly shocking it with new exercises. I really like the plyometrics and surprisingly the yoga as well.
I prefer just going to the gym. I'm not a person who can motivate myself to workout at home. Home is home, it's where I relax. Everything about the gym is such a routine it just motivates me. Anyways to get back on topic. What worked the best for me was to do full body workouts and lift heavy weights, 5/6 sets 4-6 reps. If youre someone that cant lift heavy weights you could try something like (50% set 1, 60% set 2, 70% set 3, 80% set 4, 90% set 5, and 100% set 6). Then the following week ideally your 50% becomes a heavier weight. I can't stress how important it is to rest and to eat properly. For me I was consuming 2500-3000 calories a day and had a 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat diet. The idea here is you are building muscle (aka the fat burning engine). Then after about 8-12 weeks of this training, you switch to the cutting phase and incorporate heavy amounts of cardio (any high intensity interval training is always really good for guys who play hockey or football) and lifting lighter weights, 4 sets 8-12 reps.
In the muscle building phase make sure you do as many full body exercises so get rid of the bicep curls, the tricep pulldowns, and focus on deadlifts, squats, and bench 3 times a week with 1 day of rest in between. then in the cutting phase, you would switch over to the individual muscle exercises to tone them. Everyone is different so see what works the best for you, I have a friend who lost 60 pounds off the P90 and it was something I couldnt keep up with. goodluck!
I don't have to. I will take the word of the American College of Sports Medicine over "anonymous guy on the Internet who says he has second information from guys that train guys" any day of the week.
"guys that train guys" are Mark Rippetoe, Glenn Pendlay, etc. you can read their books for free and, in fact, communicate with them directly. needless to say, they are not too thrilled with ACSM or many other organizations that ignores basic training principles and definitions. for example, what I pointed out in the abstract of the article you cited.
I've been a competitive power lifter for 6 years now, thinking about trying one of these programs.. Recently I've been obsessed with getting my resting heart rate in the 40's, I started a 77 and I'm now at 61 and I've been as low as 56. I really don't want to sacriifice muscle so by reading comments I believe px90 is the better option. Currently I lift 3 to 4 x a week, squat bench and dead with HIIT cardio
i am guessing this would probably work, but your strength levels as a competitive power lifter are already top percentile. you may be a good candidate for p90x while the rest of us aren't.
"guys that train guys" are Mark Rippetoe, Glenn Pendlay, etc. you can read their books for free and, in fact, communicate with them directly. needless to say, they are not too thrilled with ACSM or many other organizations that ignores basic training principles and definitions. for example, what I pointed out in the abstract of the article you cited.
Looking past the bickering and focusing on the OP...
Insanity will improve your cardio/endurance more than anything but focuses much less on strength building.
P90x is more strength based and uses cardio to get you there. I dont know what shape you're in but you said "offseason" so i'm assuming you play at some higher level of hockey. If you dont mind me asking, how old are you?
P90x and Insanity workouts, IMHO, are for people who spent the last 5 years on the couch scratching their nuts, eating Taco Bell, and watching Law and order. These products are marketed to the people sitting on these couches, like all info-mercials, as "Hey, you can go from tubby to ripped by giving me your money". With the right diet and level of commitment i'm sure these products work wonders on the average person wanting to look better when they take their shirt off.
However, to a competetive (professional?) athlete as yourself, i think a more focused workout regiment would be better. You're not looking to go from flub to ripped right? You're looking to be in an elite hockey shape to improve your game.
Personally i reccomend specific weight lifting, coupled with 15-25 miles (60-90 minutes)on a bike.
I'm just learning how to skate and i've been biking for about 3 years now. The muscle movements are way, way too similar for biking to be ignored.
In summary: You're most likely past the point where P90x and Insanity are going to drastically help you.
my problem is that I am at college and my school's weight room is closed for the rest of the year (bad time to close it, I know). I normally workout 4-5 times a week (now that hockey season is over and I'm not on the ice 4-5 times a week) so this is a problem. I just need something to last me until I get home for the summer in May and can start going to the gym again.
I don't want to lose much muscle and I wanna keep my core strong (has always been my strength).
Any of you guys that have tried both, what would be a better fit for me?
I have both, not a big fan of either to be honest. Best workouts you can do are pyramid style kalistetics. Start at one and do as many reps as you can in individual sets.
