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Perhaps the worst/most painful thing about this whole mess...

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Old
03-08-2012, 09:38 PM
  #101
Thrillingbroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Reimer's stats in the 4 games preceding that hit:

3.17 GAA and a .889 save pct, nothwithstanding his 3-0-1 record. He was really on fire.

And what does Gionta have to do with coaching...
You must be a blast at parties.

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03-08-2012, 09:40 PM
  #102
Beleafer4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapes03 View Post
Turris was had for david runblad and bishop was had for a second rounder... I got them confused...

We could have done that
Why would we have done that when we already have bozak, grabbo, connolly, lombardi

and reimer,gustavsson, scrivens, owuya, rynnas

We have enough second line talent and first line hopefuls. We need to hold our assets for actual first liners.

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03-08-2012, 09:42 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Thrillingbroom View Post
You must be a blast at parties.
Non sequitur.

Nice attempt at misdirection.

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Old
03-08-2012, 09:42 PM
  #104
Beleafer4
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Do they lose all value as assets of their own?
So quick to jump the gun as usual.

I was responding to a post, especially the part where the grapes guy says "Like what do we have to lose?"

These guys were risks and could have boomed or busted. Im not sure our team was in a position to take those types of risks. An AHL goalie (with upside) and 2nd/3rd line tweener (with upside).

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03-08-2012, 09:45 PM
  #105
Grapes03
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Connolly - vastly overpaid
Lombardi- vastly overpaid
Grabovski - starting soon vastly overpaid
Bozak - soon to be overpaid or released

Not one gm with half a brain would touch any of these dead fish contracts. If runblad is what it took to land a center with an upside far greater than anyone on our team... We should have thought of something. Maybe holzer +, or schenn +,... Just something.. We really suck and are headed nowhere fast..

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03-08-2012, 09:45 PM
  #106
beauchamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
So quick to jump the gun as usual.

I was responding to a post, especially the part where he says "Like what do we have to lose?"
I know.

Thus my question.

Unless you believe that players lose value as assets once they become Leafs.

Edit:

You don't play fair.

You added to your quoted post.

Now you make more sense.

But you're the anti-Wilson (might be a compliment).

You would play a nice safe conservative game as a GM.

Not sure that's what the Leafs need.

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03-08-2012, 09:46 PM
  #107
Beleafer4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
I know.

Thus my question.

Unless you believe that players lose value as assets once they become Leafs.
Yea that was my bad, I misunderstood and just ninja edited.

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Old
03-08-2012, 09:47 PM
  #108
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Sens fan here....

Bryan Murray has admitted himself, that while the term rebuild was being applied to the Senators last year and at the start of this year, the management staff really felt that they could bounce back this year into the playoffs with a simple retooling, and the addition of a quality goaltender. The core, was still there to a large part.

They just didn't talk about it being a simple retooling, because they didn't want to raise expectations.

Obviously it was a good call to flush some vets last year at the trade deadline, promote the bingo kids, and get a good goalie.....as it's worked out great. They finally picked a good coach too, after picking 3 coaches that didn't work out.

But, the foundation of this retooling had been in the works for more than six months.

Had Anderson not played well, this could have turned out much differently. Plus some intagibles, like Alfie coming back strong, Michalek having a career year, Spezza and Karlsson bringing it. There were some good trades like getting Turris and Bishop.

So, while it seemed to happen overnight.....most of the pieces were already there.

I'm not a Burke fan, but I think the situations are quite different between the two teams. That said.....I don't see the Leafs really progressing under Burke. Changing, yes. Progressing, no. Just my opinion....for what it's worth.

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03-08-2012, 09:48 PM
  #109
Thrillingbroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Non sequitur.

Nice attempt at misdirection.
Look like someone is back for another argument!

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03-08-2012, 09:49 PM
  #110
Beleafer4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapes03 View Post
Connolly - vastly overpaid
Lombardi- vastly overpaid
Grabovski - starting soon vastly overpaid
Bozak - soon to be overpaid or released

Not one gm with half a brain would touch any of these dead fish contracts. If runblad is what it took to land a center with an upside far greater than anyone on our team... We should have thought of something. Maybe holzer +, or schenn +,... Just something.. We really suck and are headed nowhere fast..
Whats your point? There was no room in our lineup for a player that was of similar size and calibre to lombardi, bozak, grabovski, lombardi and connolly.

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03-08-2012, 09:50 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Yea that was my bad, I misunderstood and just ninja edited.


We've got to give each other a two-minute warning prior to editing our posts.

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03-08-2012, 09:51 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrillingbroom View Post
Look like someone is back for another argument!
Not an argument, but hopefully an intelligent, well-thought discussion.

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Old
03-08-2012, 09:53 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehawk View Post
it took the Sens about 6 months to accomplish what Burke hasn't be able to do in 4 years...

if you asked anybody at this time last year who was in a better position moving forward, everyone would've said the leafs, but looks what's happened.

looking at what the sens have done over the last year and what they have moving forward really makes you realize the mistakes that burke has made.

i never thought i'd say this, but you have to envy what they have right now.
In Burke's defense, Daniel Alfredsson has been with them since 1994, and Spezza was drafted in 2001. Burke didn't have that foundation here.

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Old
03-08-2012, 10:02 PM
  #114
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The 4 Corners to a Successful Team

Stanley Cup Champion and Runner-Up for each year since the lockout.
Included is head coach, #1C, #1D, and #1G

2011:

Bruins - Julien, Bergeron, Chara, Thomas
Canucks - Vigneault, H. Sedin, Erhoff, Luongo

2010:

Blackhawks - Quenneville, Toews, Keith, Niemi
Flyers - Laviolette, Richards, Pronger, Leighton/Boucher

2009:

Penguins - Bylsma, Malkin, Gonchar, Fleury
Red Wings - Babcock, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Howard

2008:

Red Wings - Babcock, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Howard
Penguins - Therrien, Crosby, Gonchar, Fleury

2007:

Ducks - Carlyle, Getzlaf, Pronger, Giguere
Senators - Murray, Spezza, Redden, Emery

2006:

Hurricanes - Laviolette, Staal, Hedican, Ward
Oilers - MacTavish, Horcoff, Pronger, Roloson



With very few exceptions, each team had 4 out of 4 positions covered. On the teams that only had 3/4, depth at the other positions
made up for missing piece.

----------

Leafs:

2006: Quinn, Sundin, McCabe, Belfour
2007: Maurice, Sundin, Kaberle, Raycroft
2008: Maurice, Sundin, Kaberle, Toskala
2009: Wilson, Stajan, Kaberle, Toskala
2010: Wilson, Grabovski, Kaberle, Gustavsson
2011: Wilson, Grabovski, Phaneuf, Reimer
2012: Carlyle, Bozak, Phaneuf, Gustavsson/Reimer

Ottawa 2012: MacLean, Spezza, Karlsson, Anderson << Doesn't necessarily compare to the Finalists above, but looks a lot better than the 2012 Leafs.

On the post-lockout Leafs:

2006
  • Closest to having all 4. Quinn coached his last season for the Leafs, but there's no doubt he was a brilliant coach.
  • Sundin was a #1C. McCabe played like a #1D that year, and Kaberle was right behind. We all know how good Belfour was. That season
  • in particular wasn't spectacular though (.892 SV%, very similar to Reimer-Gus calibre). Nevertheless, if the Leafs earned an extra
  • 2-3 points and made the playoffs that year, Belfour was a good goalie to have. 4/4 of the Big 4

2007
  • Sundin was still gold, Kaberle (and McCabe still had strong seasons), but Raycroft's 37 wins are overshadowed by the fact
  • that he started in 71 of the 82 games, and posted an .894 SV%. A #1G is key, but he needs to rest too.
  • That, and after Sundin, McCabe and Kaberle, no Leaf had more than 45 points. And Paul Maurice. 2/4 or 3/4

2008, same deal, but sub in Toskala for Raycroft. Same result. And same coach. 2/4

2009, Wilson is coach, but Sundin retiring leaves a gaping hole at #1C. 1/4, or 2/4 if you count Wilson, and to be fair, the team is rebuilding.

2010, 1/4 or 2/4 still, but Kaberle is passing his prime. Still rebuilding.

2011, 1/4. Wilson is no longer an able coach for a successful team. Reimer has a solid half-season, but not a #1G. Still rebuilding.

2012, here we are now. I put Bozak as #1C because that's his job, and Grabovski is the long-term #2C. The team is finally ending a season with what
we are to believe is an able coach on a successful team. He has a Stanley Cup ring. It could be argued if Phaneuf is a #1D. His stats this year are
impressive, and with enough defensive depth, him at #1 shouldn't be an issue (see Erhoff in Vancouver, 2011). Bozak is not a #1C, and at this time,
neither Gustavsson nor Reimer are #1Gs. 2/4 but at least some improvement from last year. Still rebuilding.

It's no shock that the closest the Leafs came to playoffs/success were 2006 and 2007 where they had 4 and 3 respectively, out of the 4 key positions.
The team now has a proven coach, a #1D in Phaneuf on a deep defensive core, but not #1G and no #1C. As the post-lockout finalists show, no team is
going to be successful with only 2 out of the 4 key positions outlined in this post. And the Leafs depth at the moment isn't making up for even 1 out
of the 2 holes they have. A #1C and/or #1G should be acquired as soon as possible, before depth is even discussed. Once those positions have been filled,
and the team looks like: 201x: Carlyle, #1C, Phaneuf, #1G, then the other positions can be worried about. I can only dream that this first round pick turns
into a #1C (Galchenyuk, or whoever). With 3/4 pieces in place, and a year of Reimer maybe turning it around, optimism will be as high as
ever before. But if Reimer was a one-year wonder, a #1G must be acquired at almost any cost. It's nice that the Leafs have 6-12 role-playing prospects, but
those kind of guys can be obtained at Trade Deadline too, when the time is necessary.

On the other hand, the Senators have 3 or 4 of the corner pieces that a successful team needs, and now they can work on the depth. So they are more successful.

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Old
03-08-2012, 10:03 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
In Burke's defense, Daniel Alfredsson has been with them since 1994, and Spezza was drafted in 2001. Burke didn't have that foundation here.
Kaberle


He traded a whole bunch of players for Phaneuf, Giguere, draft picks (Antro, Poni etc) etc.

Burke rebuild was tear down and replace.
The senators was a truer accelerated retool

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Old
03-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #116
Thrillingbroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Kaberle


He traded a whole bunch of players for Phaneuf, Giguere, draft picks (Antro, Poni etc) etc.

Burke rebuild was tear down and replace.
The senators was a truer accelerated retool
And in Ottawa's 4th year of their retool since Murray was GM they missed the playoffs... looks like Burke is right on track

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Old
03-08-2012, 10:12 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Non sequitur.

Nice attempt at misdirection.
He's not misdirecting you; he's mocking you.

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Old
03-08-2012, 10:16 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrillingbroom View Post
And in Ottawa's 4th year of their retool since Murray was GM they missed the playoffs... looks like Burke is right on track
I'm starting Murray's retool from last season.

And how many times have they made the playoffs over each of the respective GMs tenures?

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03-08-2012, 10:21 PM
  #119
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Did you know that since the Ottawa Senators first made the playoffs they have never missed it in consecutive seasons?







All the idiotic "SENZ GOT LUCKEY" posts make me laugh. It's not luck that led to Bryan Murray choosing Karlsson and Cowen. It's not luck that made Bryan Murray tell Spezza he wasn't being traded. It wasn't luck that led to the Anderson for Elliott swap. It wasn't luck that led to the hiring of Paul MacLean as coach.

It was solid management and smart decisions. Burke needs to go, and the sooner some of you stop drinking the koolaid, the better. All Burke has done is spend insane amounts of money in free agency, give up a metric ****ton of assets to acquire potential core pieces (instead of building through the draft like every other successful franchise in the NHL) and tried to take on Don Cherry. On top of all that, he still hasn't learnt how to tie a tie or how to stay out of the spotlight and do his job.

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03-08-2012, 10:24 PM
  #120
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He's not misdirecting you; he's mocking you.
Thanks Master for your divine comment.

The last line of defense of someone who has no arguments left.

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03-08-2012, 10:27 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
I'm starting Murray's retool from last season.

And how many times have they made the playoffs over each of the respective GMs tenures?
Oh so out of all these new rookies the Sens have this season how many were acquired last season?

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03-08-2012, 10:29 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Put Spezza on this team and we make the playoffs IMO.
Really? You know the issue with this team is goals against not goals for right?

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03-08-2012, 10:29 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Eugene View Post


All the idiotic "SENZ GOT LUCKEY" posts make me laugh. It's not luck that led to Bryan Murray choosing Karlsson and Cowen. It's not luck that made Bryan Murray tell Spezza he wasn't being traded. It wasn't luck that led to the Anderson for Elliott swap. It wasn't luck that led to the hiring of Paul MacLean as coach.

It was solid management and smart decisions. Burke needs to go, and the sooner some of you stop drinking the koolaid, the better
Yet all the Sens fan were ready to fire Murray a calender year ago, Ottawa absolutely got lucky. If the Leafs had Karlsson instead of Schenn, imagine all the headache Burke would have avoided and instead be praised. If anything Sens success should show that the Leafs aren't far once they add a goalie now with a new coach.

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03-08-2012, 10:32 PM
  #124
Thrillingbroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Thanks Master for your divine comment.

The last line of defense of someone who has no arguments left.
There was no arguments to begin with. And FYI since it clearly went right through you, it was a joke.

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03-08-2012, 10:33 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Thrillingbroom View Post
Oh so out of all these new rookies the Sens have this season how many were acquired last season?

I don't think the rookies have been as important to the team as getting league average goaltending. And I seem to recall Burke traded 2 1st and 2nd they might be handy. He also traded away prospects who are elsewhere in the NHL (Tlusty, Hayes, Stalberg etc). Not outstanding but decent depth for the team.

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