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THN Future Watch: Toronto Maple Leafs Discussion (B-)

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Old
03-09-2012, 01:30 PM
  #76
Mess
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Excluding 1 game tryout Carter Ashton, then Leafs youngest forward on the roster is 24 year of Matt Frattin and he too is a part timer only at this point.

Leafs have only 1 dman Gardiner under 21 and 2 total including Schenn under age 23 where Schenn 4th NHL season is already outside the scope that is considered "future prosect, both for age and experience.

So in a study evaluating "kids" young players under 21 Leafs don't possess many that is a fact, and the few that scouts do consider worthy of consideration like Colborne, Kadri and Ashton are reflected in the bottom 10 rankings among all teams prospect systems. Even what is considered our better young players at this point, are anything but ensured regular roster spots in the near future.

Fans often focus on the Leafs being a young team, but where are the future improvements going to come from internally?

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03-09-2012, 01:37 PM
  #77
Busher Jackson
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A better way to look at a roster is the median age of players. The Leafs roster average age is skewed because the leafs have no players over 31 on the roster. The Sens have 6. The Sens also have 6 players 23 and under. The leafs two.

Sadly, the Sens are much farther ahead than the Leafs

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03-09-2012, 01:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Busher Jackson View Post
A better way to look at a roster is the median age of players. The Leafs roster average age is skewed because the leafs have no players over 31 on the roster. The Sens have 6. The Sens also have 6 players 23 and under. The leafs two.

Sadly, the Sens are much farther ahead than the Leafs
The fact the Hockey News future watch discussed here shows the Sens prospect pool of non NHLers ranked #2 overall verses Leafs at 20th.

So Sens current NHL roster is better and their prospect pool is deeper and better than Leafs.. Similar Florida leads their division and also has a #3 ranked future pool on the way of young talent to replace aging veterans.

Their GMs seem to have this rebuild formula figured out to not only ice playoff NHL teams today, but stock pile the cupboard for the future simultaneously to expect even more growth over time.

So how do the Leafs hope to surpass these teams there in competition with, more UFA signings and trades?

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03-09-2012, 01:59 PM
  #79
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Couple things. Why cant more leafs prospects "sweep us off of our feet". Asside from Gardiner, the prospects coming out of our pools end up being very underwhelming. Not sure if it has to do with the pressure of being in the Toronto market.

I mean what happened to Joe Colborne? Yea sure a bogus magazine ranked him 18th, but i mean the guy started off on a tear He was named player of the month, scoring something like 19 points in 11games. Since that month hes played in 38 games registering 17 points. Yikes, scary drop in production. 1.72 PPG to 0.44 PPG. Anyone familiar with going to Marlies games that have some kind of mind blowing explanation to help me understand that drastic of a downward plummet? Was it getting called up to the big club? because thats certainly when the free fall began. When i watch him it seems as if the life has been sucked right out of him. No determination, hardly any compete and grit. To start the season, he was flying all over the ice winning battles dominating the game. Went to a Rochester v Toronto game and we were down by two with 2 minutes left. He set up both goals to tie the game, and scored the game winner in OT.

I assume its because he started the season as top line C and dallas eakins promoted Zigomanis and demoted colborne. Hope he can rebound.

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03-09-2012, 02:06 PM
  #80
Busher Jackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The fact the Hockey News future watch discussed here shows the Sens prospect pool of non NHLers ranked #2 overall verses Leafs at 20th.

So Sens current NHL roster is better and their prospect pool is deeper and better than Leafs.. Similar Florida leads their division and also has a #3 ranked future pool on the way of young talent to replace aging veterans.

Their GMs seem to have this rebuild formula figured out to not only ice playoff NHL teams today, but stock pile the cupboard for the future simultaneously to expect even more growth over time.

So how do the Leafs hope to surpass these teams there in competition with, more UFA signings and trades?
I suggest trading Kessel for a two high round 1 picks and a high round 2 pick. If you can't do that, trade him for Schenn,Simmons and a round 2 pick. If that can't work trade him to the Rangers for package of J.T. Miller, Chris Krieder, Chris Thomas and a first round pick.

If anyone watched the rookie games the Sens prospects were better than the leafs prospects.

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03-09-2012, 02:07 PM
  #81
Giuseppe Sallo
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Senators #2?


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03-09-2012, 02:57 PM
  #82
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REMINDER:

I just listed the teams in "order" based on the letter grade they were given (which was revealed on Twitter, over a time period of a few days).

I don't have the magazine yet, but one can assume if they gave out letter grades, they would rank the teams with those grades...

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03-09-2012, 03:00 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Sallo View Post
Senators #2?

As much as we hate to admit, the Senators have an extremely bright future. Zibs and Lehner are widely considered two of the best prospects at their position, not just by the 14 scouts who took part in this ranking.

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03-09-2012, 04:37 PM
  #84
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Looks pretty good imo.

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03-09-2012, 04:56 PM
  #85
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Giving this any credibility, merit or even thought is just silly. This is just other people looking into their crystal ball, which is just an non-existant as the rest of ours.

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03-09-2012, 06:46 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Crabovski View Post
Giving this any credibility, merit or even thought is just silly. This is just other people looking into their crystal ball, which is just an non-existant as the rest of ours.
It's important because it shows just how badly leafs fans over-rate their prospects. It's to the point that the majority of leafs fans bombast anyone that has the common sense to acknowledge that our prospect depth is mediocre, at best.

What I find amusing is that the 2008 leafs team was given similar prospect rankings. Middle of the road. Of course, leafs fans at the time were still raving about our under appreciated prospect depth. Some people never learn.
And Burke has succeeded in... uh... neither improving our prospects or on ice product. It really is unbelievable.

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03-09-2012, 06:58 PM
  #87
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Is is why i do not subscribe to the hockey news...
As soon as it comes out it is out of date.
The lightning would be lower without Ashton and the Leafs would be higher.

gardiner, ashton, kadri not included... I wonder if Frattin was?

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03-09-2012, 07:08 PM
  #88
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This is a perfect example of how numbers can be abused.

The OP mentions that this list is not in the order from the magazine, but rather is in an order he created based on grades...
Notice then that the Leafs B- is equal to the new jersey deils score, and they come up on this list at 18.

Then, with Ashton counting towards tampa instead of Toronto, the Leafs could be seen as a B grade instead of a B-, and that puts them in the pack that can rank as high as 11th.

Throwing the Leafs in at 20 is sensationalizing and pouring fuel on the fire... I recognize that the OP is a leaf fan, but even Leaf fans are among the worst disturbers of the peace.

Lets not get carried away with hysterics over this ranking...

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03-09-2012, 07:14 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
This is a perfect example of how numbers can be abused.

The OP mentions that this list is not in the order from the magazine, but rather is in an order he created based on grades...
Notice then that the Leafs B- is equal to the new jersey deils score, and they come up on this list at 18.

Then, with Ashton counting towards tampa instead of Toronto, the Leafs could be seen as a B grade instead of a B-, and that puts them in the pack that can rank as high as 11th.

Throwing the Leafs in at 20 is sensationalizing and pouring fuel on the fire... I recognize that the OP is a leaf fan, but even Leaf fans are among the worst disturbers of the peace.

Lets not get carried away with hysterics over this ranking...
Gain Ashton, Lose Aulie, equals out.

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03-09-2012, 07:17 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
Is is why i do not subscribe to the hockey news...
As soon as it comes out it is out of date.
The lightning would be lower without Ashton and the Leafs would be higher.

gardiner, ashton, kadri not included... I wonder if Frattin was?

I do not think are overall grade would improve with the inclusion of Ashton....he would not significantly improve our grade, we lost Aulie in exchange for Ashton.

Our prospects in the minors are not that good. Colborne has some upside if he can be motivated to compete hard....which is his most glaring weakness as a player. Kadri is still a top prospect and the Jury is out on him. Gardiner is a star....and he is the only true top young player we have currently.

Schenn could be a huge player for us....and the coaching change will benefit him greatly.

We do not have a lot of top tier talent in the fold....that is the reason for the B-, we do have a lot of top end tier 2 talent.

Frattin is on his way to being a decent pro....bottom 6 with some scoring ability.

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Old
03-10-2012, 01:23 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
This is a perfect example of how numbers can be abused.

The OP mentions that this list is not in the order from the magazine, but rather is in an order he created based on grades...
Notice then that the Leafs B- is equal to the new jersey deils score, and they come up on this list at 18.

Then, with Ashton counting towards tampa instead of Toronto, the Leafs could be seen as a B grade instead of a B-, and that puts them in the pack that can rank as high as 11th.

Throwing the Leafs in at 20 is sensationalizing and pouring fuel on the fire... I recognize that the OP is a leaf fan, but even Leaf fans are among the worst disturbers of the peace.

Lets not get carried away with hysterics over this ranking...
Wow, are you serious?

I quickly tried putting them in order ... three teams were B- ... I added the numbers (1., 2., etc afterwards to make sure I had all 30 teams) ... I highlighted the Leafs in case people wanted to quickly see the general area they are ranked.

18 to 20 ... yeah, that's some crazy sensationalism ... If I had put the Leafs at 18 and St.Louis at 20, people could have said I was being a homer lol

I'd edit the post so all three teams say 18, but it doesn't let me ... but I really don't think its as big of a deal as you made it out to be.

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03-10-2012, 03:07 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Busher Jackson View Post
A better way to look at a roster is the median age of players. The Leafs roster average age is skewed because the leafs have no players over 31 on the roster. The Sens have 6. The Sens also have 6 players 23 and under. The leafs two.

Sadly, the Sens are much farther ahead than the Leafs


Does your opinion of the Sens rebuild change once Alf, Gonchar, and Philips leave? Because they have put forth solid contributions to the team this year.

Personally I think if the Leafs can get some more young players in the line up next year and maybe get a half decent goalie, the two teams aren't THAT far apart. I have a feeling Ottawa will come back down to earth next year. Hopefully the Leafs will show some progress to prove my comparison right.

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03-10-2012, 03:21 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Sallo View Post
Senators #2?

I wouldn't argue with that. They seem to have a deep prospect pool with some real nice pieces.

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Old
03-10-2012, 07:22 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Hayes View Post
Brian Costello ‏ @bcostellothn

#Leafs have B- rating and 2 prospects (Joe Colborne, newcomer Carter Ashton from Tampa) among top 75 in THN's upcoming #FutureWatch


---

Haven't seen this posted yet.

It ranks "NHL upside" of prospects and 21-and-under NHLers. Ranked by a panel of 14 scouts. I've also read that each top 10 prospect list in the magazine comes directly from a member of each organization.

Although it is only one magazine's ranking, it's pretty disheartening that Kadri is no longer in the Top 75 (unless, he isn't considered eligible?). It's nice to see Colborne (18th) and Ashton (37th) are rated highly though.

Overall, I feel the Leafs have a lot of depth and good to very good prospects, but still lack that elite player at each position in the system. Which sucks.


OTHER TEAMS (Top 75 players in brackets) - Not the order in magazine, just put them in order myself based on grade


1. Oilers: A+ (Klefbom)
2. Senators: A- (Zibanejad, Lehner, Stone, Silfverberg, Noesen)
3. Panthers: A- (Huberdeau, Markstrom, Bjustad, Petrovic)
4. Ducks: A- (Justin Schultz, Rickard Rakell, Kyle Palmieri)
5. Avalance: A- (Duncan Siemens, Joey Hishon, Tyson Barrie)
6. Wild: B+ (Granlund, Brodin, Coyle, Hackett, Larsson, Bulmer)
7. Islanders: B+ (Ryan Strome, Calvin de haan, Brock Nelson)
8. Lightning: B+ (a traded Carter Ashton, Vlad Namestnikov)
9. Jets: B+ (Mark Scheifele, Patrice Cormier)
10. Hurricanes: B+ (Ryan Murphy, Zac Dalpe)
11. Capitals: B (Kuznetsov, Eakin, Galiev, Holtby)
12. Bruins: B (Dougie Hamilton, Jordan Caron, Alex Khokhlachev)
13. Rangers: B (Tim Erixon, Chris Kreider, JT Miller)
14. Coyotes: B (Brandon Gormley, Max Goncharov)
15. Sabres: B (a traded Zack Kassian, Joel Armia, Marcus Foligno)
16. Blackhawks: B (Saad, McNeill, Morin, Danault)
17. Flyers: B (None)
18. Devils: B- (Jon Merrill)
19. Blues: B- (Tarasenko, Schwartz, Rattie, Allen)
20. Toronto: B- (newcomer Carter Ashton, Joe Colborne)
21. Penguins: C+ (Joe Morrow, Simon Despres, Beau Bennett)
22. Redwings: C+ (Smith, Jarnkrok, Nyquvist, Tatar)
23. Kings: C+ (Tyler Toffoli, Derek Forbort)
24. Bluejackets: C+ (David Savard, Boone Jenner)
25. Stars: C+ (Jack Campbell, Jamie Oleksiak)
26. Predators: C+ (Ryan Ellis)
27. Canadiens: C (Nathan Beaulieu, Louis Leblanc, Jarred Tinordi)
28. Canucks: C (newcomer Zack Kassian, Nicklas Jensen)
29. Flames: C (Sven Baertschi)
30. Sharks: C- (None)

Still pretty much in the bottom third of the league (according to FutureWatch). I guess it's an improvement.

Thoughts?
Colbourne will never play for Carlyle ...too soft

Ashton will be a an ok third liner ...all teams could use one

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Old
03-10-2012, 08:04 AM
  #95
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Just in case anyone feels bad about the Leafs prospects, have a look at who's in 30th and how many prospects they have in the top 75.
in 5 years we've gone fromfrom "the passion that unties us" to at least we're not dead last

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03-10-2012, 08:50 AM
  #96
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Gain Ashton, Lose Aulie, equals out.
Not when you have the depth on defence Toronto has so I don't think it equals out

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03-10-2012, 09:23 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Hayes View Post
Wow, are you serious?

I quickly tried putting them in order ... three teams were B- ... I added the numbers (1., 2., etc afterwards to make sure I had all 30 teams) ... I highlighted the Leafs in case people wanted to quickly see the general area they are ranked.

18 to 20 ... yeah, that's some crazy sensationalism ... If I had put the Leafs at 18 and St.Louis at 20, people could have said I was being a homer lol

I'd edit the post so all three teams say 18, but it doesn't let me ... but I really don't think its as big of a deal as you made it out to be.
No offense intended...
I think there is a tendency for us to unconsciously crap on our own team... and while you did us a great service by posting the info, i find it troubling that some ignored your mention about how you ranked the teams and began to run around like the sky was falling...

I merely wanted to point out that we contribute to the bashing of our own club, whether intentionally or not, and point out how this information could be interpreted differently.

As far as Aulie and Asthon being a parallel substitution as another poster said, that would require Aulie to be ranked in the top 75 right where Ashton is. Since aulie is not a top 75 prospect, adding ashton to toronto would logically increase their ranking - probably from a b- to a B, which then puts them into the class of other B ranked squads. No one I have talked to or read has told me that they feel the Leafs did not do very well to get Ashton for Aulie.

This is not a bottom third farm system...

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Old
03-10-2012, 09:30 AM
  #98
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Moving on, it seems like some teams (like the Flyers) are getting a bonus for guys who are no longer eligible... Couturier and Schenn are excellent prospects, but if they are not in the ranking, How on earth do they rank so high?
Do gustaffson, Wellwood, ranford, Deserve such a high ranking?

I guess I need to wait to get this magazine from my local library and read their criteria, because at this point I am perplexed.

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03-10-2012, 09:49 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
Colbourne will never play for Carlyle ...too soft

Ashton will be a an ok third liner ...all teams could use one
Seriously? Kessel and Connolly are playing for Carlyle and they make Colborne look like Gary Roberts

Anyways, watching the Marlies, I'm pumped for Blacker and D'Amigo at training camp next season. I have a feel Jerry makes it for his work effort and Blacker has a chance depending on if Burke can get rid of any deadwood on the back end this offseason

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03-10-2012, 10:04 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
If they're listing the top 75 "21 and under prospects and nhl players" then weere are RNH, Eberle, Hall, B. Schenn, etc?
This is the ranking by team of the top 75 prospects as well as a teams NHL players under the age of 21. The TOP PROSPECTS are listed in brackets. This is why you don't see Gardiner, Kadri, Cowen, RNH etc...

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