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When Markov's back, what happens to Kaberle?

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Old
03-12-2012, 10:24 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
So Kaberle's playmaking ability and 6 or so extra points for $4M+ x 2 seasons?

The team IS missing Spacek. It just doesn't show up on the stat sheet for a lot of the stat geeks on this board. Spacek as weak as he was offensively was very strong defensively. But that doesn't show up on the scoresheet, unfortunately.

Only here is Kaberle's value so high.
??? 6 extra points?

He got an extra 10 since the deal... The 8 games Spacek missed would be even more detrimental to us, with our injury problems on the point. I dont give him anything for missed time on this issue, because we would have needed a defenceman for the 8 games he missed, when none would have been here.

and Kaberle destroys Spacek's offensive output on assists alone. 19 assists to Spacek's 12 points. Add in Kab's 3 goals, and it's overkill.

Kaberle is easily a better Offensive defencemen, and in his WORST NHL season, he's crushing Spacek's numbers rather handily.

For 2 more seasons, we have a few things...
1) We dont need to wholly depend on Markov for offence...
2) We add a lot of offensive talent that CAN play regular shifts in the NHL on the defence. For cheap (buy low/sell high)
3) It's definately a heck of a lot more than 6 odd points that you're adding...
You do realize that Kaberle's 22 points in 1/2 a season as a Canadien, is more than any seasonal output Spacek has ever produced in our jersey (his highest output was 21 in his first year here). In fact, since SPACEK signed here (going back to 09-10)... He's been outscored by Kaberle 127 (15 G - 112 A) to 52 (9 G - 43 A)...

We bought a player who has had some of his glory years play out, for a guy who was essentially on his last legs.
Kaberle is still young enough to add to his career... The 2 years @ 4.25 is nothing. When we couldnt BURY Spacek's contract fast enough the past few seasons.

When we are a middling talent team (which we have been prior to this season) one big omission IMO that gets fixed at least a bit here, is that we SHOULD be icing a very slick set of defencemen, that can add to a score board better than the oppositions can. It's an advantage that has JUST begun to be seen, with the return of Markov. Personally, Ive been stoked to see the results SINCE the deal.

We had a serious problem for many moons getting the puck out of our zone... With these guys however, other teams are going to have to respect the fact that for 45 minutes a game, these 2 guys can create plays that WILL destroy the opposition's d...

After 20 1 goal or less games we had this season to date... I wouldnt be surprised that one thing we wil notice is NOT being shut out again all year.

ONE game... We just walked in to Vancouver, who is good on home ice, and handed them their head. Outside of the first period, they couldnt contain us.

Now lets see how Buffallo handles it. I bet Miller cries when he sees the set ups, and the goals floating by him tonight.

It's going to be very difficult to contain 2 offensive d-men who play such a different game from eachother.

Kaberle plays a patient simple game... (like chess)
Markov plays a creative intelligent game...

Subban is going to be another catalyst for these 2 guys... as is possible Emelin or Weber.

Furthermore... before anyone can say it... It's been flat out proven yu CAN win with a Kaberle. (just last season)... It has NEVER been proven that you can win with a Spacek.

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03-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #152
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People need to realize that as a Hab Kaberle is still on pace for 45 pts.

The number of D in the entire league who scored 45 pts last year was just 18, not even one per team.

It seems some people think defencemen with this kind of production offensively grow on trees.

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03-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #153
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Wouldn't be surprised if a team like Phoenix maybe wants him in the summer, their PP has been hilarious all year and they'll have the cap space to take him on.

If Markov looks fine the rest of the year I'd be very surprised if he's back with us next year.

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03-12-2012, 10:51 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
People need to realize that as a Hab Kaberle is still on pace for 45 pts.

The number of D in the entire league who scored 45 pts last year was just 18, not even one per team.

It seems some people think defencemen with this kind of production offensively grow on trees.
Shush, someone will misconstrue that stat to show that Kaberle is, in fact, not productive.

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03-12-2012, 10:55 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
People need to realize that as a Hab Kaberle is still on pace for 45 pts.

The number of D in the entire league who scored 45 pts last year was just 18, not even one per team.

It seems some people think defencemen with this kind of production offensively grow on trees.
Canes' Spacek is on pace for 12+ goals and 30+ points. Only 5 defensemen did that last year with a positive +/-...what did we give up?!

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03-12-2012, 10:58 AM
  #156
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The Habs don't have an imperative need for Kaberle but it wouldn't hurt them badly to keep him around. However, I expect him to be traded at some point. What they get back for him isn't critical. A draft choice? An untried youg player for Hamilton?

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03-12-2012, 11:02 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The Habs don't have an imperative need for Kaberle but it wouldn't hurt them badly to keep him around. However, I expect him to be traded at some point. What they get back for him isn't critical. A draft choice? An untried youg player for Hamilton?
Precisely. It's not painful to keep him around until his trade value will go up, and THEN you trade him. We gave away a defenseman who wasn't really giving anything special in return of a high-end offensively talented D-man with some defensive liabilty, but by no mean as worse as many other O-Ds in this league.

We bought low, we should sell high. Thats good asset management.

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03-12-2012, 01:05 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Precisely. It's not painful to keep him around until his trade value will go up, and THEN you trade him. We gave away a defenseman who wasn't really giving anything special in return of a high-end offensively talented D-man with some defensive liabilty, but by no mean as worse as many other O-Ds in this league.

We bought low, we should sell high. Thats good asset management.
To me it depends slightly on what else they could do with his cap space. Personally, I do not believe the Habs have any chance at signing Ryan Suter/Shea Weber or Zach Parise. Offer them what you will $8,9,10M... I don't think they're signing here. But: *if* there was a chance to get that player, and if the cap space that Kaberle occupies was a stumbling block... then it would quickly become imperative to get rid of Kaberle, no matter what his market value was.

Aside from those ultra-mega-star UFAs, however, the Habs should have ample cap space to pursue anybody else. So if I happen to prefer a Brad Stuart/Bryan Allen/Barret Jackman type of defenseman to Kaberle for the mix on our team, then it would still be doable under the cap to have both on the payroll. Moving Kaberle wouldn't necessarily be imperative in that more likely situation.

At least he has put up some numbers since coming to the Habs, so the idea that he might have regained some value around the league is reasonable. Apparently the 'Canes asked around and couldn't find any team that would even take him on waivers in the fall. It would have been more of a disaster for us if his production hadn't come around after the trade. At least it gives us *some* hope.

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03-12-2012, 01:09 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Canes' Spacek is on pace for 12+ goals and 30+ points. Only 5 defensemen did that last year with a positive +/-...what did we give up?!
Huge difference is that Kaberle has been a 45-50 pt D for his entire career. This isn't a case of a small sample size that isnt likely to repeat based on past play (Spacek); in Kaberle he does this every year.

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03-12-2012, 01:17 PM
  #160
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Contract comparables
http://capgeek.com/comparables.php?player=182

I see Liles, Komisarek, Zidlicky, Gilbert, Hainsey, Ballard, all in that list.

Yes some other guys are better than him but there are also guys worse.

This contract is very much middle of the pack when it comes to ~4 million dollar D
just to make it clear...

it's obvious that there are several players, at every position, around the league who are on contracts that their current (or recently former) teams regret giving them.

Invariably, players underperform/regress and/or teams knowingly "overpaid" to get a player they felt was a "need" to give them an important missing competitive piece.

The goal of a GM, at least one intent on building a contending roster in a cap system, must be to minimize those types of contracts on his roster. to have no "overpaid" players, is perhaps almost impossible, but it doesn't alter the objective of getting good value out of the contracts on your roster...

Currently, the habs, dead last in the eastern conference, have several "bad" contracts on their books, with Gomez/Kaberle being clearly the worst.

that other teams also have a dman who is playing at a poor level compared to the TOP players in their age-range/contract status, doesn't minimize or mitigate the need for the habs, given their roster make-up, to have a vested interest in unloading Kaberle.


i fail to see how measuring up Kaberle to players that are considered overpaid makes any sense?

are you telling me you'd like to see the habs ADD a guy like Komisarek or Ballard? I guarantee you that we could acquire them at little/no cost, asset-wise, yet something tells me if I suggested trading a 5th for Komisarek, you'd call me crazy... why is that



As clear as I can possibly state it... as a regular cap spending team, keeping a guy like Kaberle on the roster, @ 4.25M$/cap hit, and with the salary distribution that we currently have, makes no sense.

Aside from having several veterans struggling (due to injury or performance) to perform up to their expected level, (Gomez, Gionta, Bourque, Markov, arguably Plekanec), and with several key young players in line for raises (many substantial) before Kaberle's contract expires (Price, Subban, Eller, Emelin, Pacioretty, Desharnais, Diaz, White), Kaberle's 4.25$ is cap space that can be much better allocated elsewhere.

He is simply to poor of a player, overall, to justify using up that much cap space for. His arrival did nothing to improve our PP, his presence clearly didn't help improve the teams overall competitive ability, and while his production looks nice on the stat sheet, watching him play it is painfully evident that he is nowhere near the kind of impact player a team can/should expect from a player earning over 4M$/season... even if there are similar/worse players earning that much or more sprinkled throughout the league.

let some other team "benefit" from him occupying that much of their cap space. Moving forward he's more of a detriment than a benefit to our roster.

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03-12-2012, 01:22 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Huge difference is that Kaberle has been a 45-50 pt D for his entire career. This isn't a case of a small sample size that isnt likely to repeat based on past play (Spacek); in Kaberle he does this every year.
Yeah, I had this argument over the summer about Gomez with numerous people here. Kaberle isn't the same player anymore.

While he may put up some points, his 5-on-5 play has regressed to him being a bottom pairing guy that loses the matchup against the easiest competition on the team.

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03-12-2012, 01:30 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Huge difference is that Kaberle has been a 45-50 pt D for his entire career. This isn't a case of a small sample size that isnt likely to repeat based on past play (Spacek); in Kaberle he does this every year.
Spacek has scored, or been on pace to score, 40+pts 5x in his career

30+ 7x in his career.


how big of a sample size do you require?


also interesting to note...

Habs signed Spacek to just under 4M$ following his last 40+ pt campaign (45pts for Buffalo, @ 34yrs old)... Gainey/Gauthier clearly expecting that he'd be able to bring something close to that level to Montreal.


Kaberle, who is also 34, is on pace for his worst statistical season of his career (and I can only imagine his worst overall performance season of his career).

Perhaps, as Gainey/Gauthier believed with Spacek, Kaberle will prove his detractors wrong and prove to be a player worth that kind of cap commitment.

or perhaps, like Spacek, we'll spend 2 years watching a player woefully equipped to play up to the level of expectation reasonably established for him.


thus far, the latter is painfully true... I suppose we can hold out hope that the lack of professionalism the 34 year old Kaberle showed last offseason was a "fluke" and that he'll dedicate himself to properly preparing this year, so as to come into next season prepared to handle the workload expected of a 4M$+ player. I just won't hold my breath.

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03-12-2012, 01:32 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Yeah, I had this argument over the summer about Gomez with numerous people here. Kaberle isn't the same player anymore.

While he may put up some points, his 5-on-5 play has regressed to him being a bottom pairing guy that loses the matchup against the easiest competition on the team.
Gomez showed actual regression in his point totals... Kaberle hasn't, he's been consistently putting up 45+ pts. The short stint in Carolina is the exception here, not a continuation of a decline.

MTL 45 pt pace
2010-11 47 pts
2009-10 49 pts
2008-09 31 in 57 games; 45 pt pace without injury
2007-08 53 pts

This isn't the same as Gomez who was already showing signs of decline going from 84 to 60 (injured) to 70 to 58 pts before the trade.

As for the defensive play, its been commented on several times, yes he has deficiencies, but he always has, however he's usually been paired with a stay at home, defensively responsible partner, not Campoli, and this is what should happen again.

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03-12-2012, 01:50 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
just to make it clear...

it's obvious that there are several players, at every position, around the league who are on contracts that their current (or recently former) teams regret giving them.

Invariably, players underperform/regress and/or teams knowingly "overpaid" to get a player they felt was a "need" to give them an important missing competitive piece.

The goal of a GM, at least one intent on building a contending roster in a cap system, must be to minimize those types of contracts on his roster. to have no "overpaid" players, is perhaps almost impossible, but it doesn't alter the objective of getting good value out of the contracts on your roster...

Currently, the habs, dead last in the eastern conference, have several "bad" contracts on their books, with Gomez/Kaberle being clearly the worst.

that other teams also have a dman who is playing at a poor level compared to the TOP players in their age-range/contract status, doesn't minimize or mitigate the need for the habs, given their roster make-up, to have a vested interest in unloading Kaberle.


i fail to see how measuring up Kaberle to players that are considered overpaid makes any sense?

are you telling me you'd like to see the habs ADD a guy like Komisarek or Ballard? I guarantee you that we could acquire them at little/no cost, asset-wise, yet something tells me if I suggested trading a 5th for Komisarek, you'd call me crazy... why is that



As clear as I can possibly state it... as a regular cap spending team, keeping a guy like Kaberle on the roster, @ 4.25M$/cap hit, and with the salary distribution that we currently have, makes no sense.

Aside from having several veterans struggling (due to injury or performance) to perform up to their expected level, (Gomez, Gionta, Bourque, Markov, arguably Plekanec), and with several key young players in line for raises (many substantial) before Kaberle's contract expires (Price, Subban, Eller, Emelin, Pacioretty, Desharnais, Diaz, White), Kaberle's 4.25$ is cap space that can be much better allocated elsewhere.

He is simply to poor of a player, overall, to justify using up that much cap space for. His arrival did nothing to improve our PP, his presence clearly didn't help improve the teams overall competitive ability, and while his production looks nice on the stat sheet, watching him play it is painfully evident that he is nowhere near the kind of impact player a team can/should expect from a player earning over 4M$/season... even if there are similar/worse players earning that much or more sprinkled throughout the league.

let some other team "benefit" from him occupying that much of their cap space. Moving forward he's more of a detriment than a benefit to our roster.
Difference is I'm not cherry-picking contracts here, I'm giving you all the contracts that are similar to Kaberle.
The link on Cap Geek provided all the comparables, not just the worst of the worst.

Kaberle is being paid FAIR MARKET VALUE for what he provides.

We need to recognize that the cap has risen.

4.25 million on a 64.3 million dollar cap is 6.61% of our cap space
6.61% of the old 39 million dollar cap is 2.379 million.

Kaberle is being paid the current going rate for a defenceman who brings offence but has defensive deficiencies.

People keep looking at 4.25 million and say he should be a top 4 defenceman, it quite simply isn't the case.

One only needs to look at the contract of James Wisniewski to see what the going rate for a UFA with 1 season at 45+ pts, and the ability to play second pairing minutes gets paid.

One only needs to look at the arbitration award of Shea Weber to see what the going rate is for a D who plays shut down defence and scores 45+ pts is.

Kaberle is NOT drastically overpaid, it just isn't true, no matter how much people want to believe it is.

The other thing I'll point out is that people have no issue with paying 4 million dollars for D who are great defensively but bring 0 offence, in fact many people wanted to do exactly that with Mike Komisarek (before he left and before his decline).

However bring an elite offensive D (and 45+ pts every year is elite, make no mistake on that) with a weak defensive game and people are up in arms about the contract.

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03-12-2012, 01:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Spacek has scored, or been on pace to score, 40+pts 5x in his career

30+ 7x in his career.


how big of a sample size do you require?


also interesting to note...

Habs signed Spacek to just under 4M$ following his last 40+ pt campaign (45pts for Buffalo, @ 34yrs old)... Gainey/Gauthier clearly expecting that he'd be able to bring something close to that level to Montreal.


Kaberle, who is also 34, is on pace for his worst statistical season of his career (and I can only imagine his worst overall performance season of his career).

Perhaps, as Gainey/Gauthier believed with Spacek, Kaberle will prove his detractors wrong and prove to be a player worth that kind of cap commitment.

or perhaps, like Spacek, we'll spend 2 years watching a player woefully equipped to play up to the level of expectation reasonably established for him.


thus far, the latter is painfully true... I suppose we can hold out hope that the lack of professionalism the 34 year old Kaberle showed last offseason was a "fluke" and that he'll dedicate himself to properly preparing this year, so as to come into next season prepared to handle the workload expected of a 4M$+ player. I just won't hold my breath.
So let me get this straight, because Spacek didn't live up to his contract in Montreal, Kaberle won't (despite the fact he's produced for ~40 games since arriving).

All you've done is show all the more reason why trading an asset who wasn't producing for the Habs in Spacek, for one who is producing for the Habs in Kaberle was a good deal.

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03-12-2012, 03:25 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Gomez showed actual regression in his point totals... Kaberle hasn't, he's been consistently putting up 45+ pts. The short stint in Carolina is the exception here, not a continuation of a decline.

MTL 45 pt pace
2010-11 47 pts
2009-10 49 pts
2008-09 31 in 57 games; 45 pt pace without injury
2007-08 53 pts

This isn't the same as Gomez who was already showing signs of decline going from 84 to 60 (injured) to 70 to 58 pts before the trade.

As for the defensive play, its been commented on several times, yes he has deficiencies, but he always has, however he's usually been paired with a stay at home, defensively responsible partner, not Campoli, and this is what should happen again.
His pace did drop, you just cherrypick the stats.

And like I said, he's losing to the lowest tier competition 5-on-5. Next time I want a bottom pairing guy who can't stay close to even, I'll know Kaberle is the man.

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03-12-2012, 04:02 PM
  #167
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His pace did drop, you just cherrypick the stats.
I showed 5 CONSECUTIVE seasons, and I cherry picked the stats?

He's been steady for 5 years. Sure if you want to go back to 2005-06 when the number of PPs in the league was double, their were 7 100 pt scorers (1 last year) and the Art Ross Trophy winner scored nearly 130 pts (104 last season), yes it dropped from that season, but most guys who play on the PP have also dropped from that season when teams averaged over 6 PPs per game (3.66 today).

Ask Eric Staal why he hasn't scored 100 pts again.
or why Brian Gionta hasn't scored 48 goals.

We have 5 consecutive seasons of Kaberle on a 45-50 pt pace. I think thats quite significant.

Quote:
And like I said, he's losing to the lowest tier competition 5-on-5. Next time I want a bottom pairing guy who can't stay close to even, I'll know Kaberle is the man.
Give him a defensive partner instead of Campoli who shares all his weaknesses 5 on 5, but none of his strengths and you might see a difference there.

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03-12-2012, 07:03 PM
  #168
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Difference is I'm not cherry-picking contracts here, I'm giving you all the contracts that are similar to Kaberle.
you sure about that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Contract comparables
http://capgeek.com/comparables.php?player=182

I see Liles, Komisarek, Zidlicky, Gilbert, Hainsey, Ballard, all in that list.

Yes some other guys are better than him but there are also guys worse.

This contract is very much middle of the pack when it comes to ~4 million dollar D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The link on Cap Geek provided all the comparables, not just the worst of the worst.
and yet you chose to highlight Liles, Komisarek, Zidlicky, Gilbert, Hainsey & Ballard (3 of which, incidentally, are reliable enough to play 20+ min/game for their teams), instead of pointing out names like Giordano, Hamhuis, Mihalek, Meszaros, Staal, Wideman, Pitkanen...

just a coincidence right



Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Kaberle is being paid FAIR MARKET VALUE for what he provides.

We need to recognize that the cap has risen.

4.25 million on a 64.3 million dollar cap is 6.61% of our cap space
6.61% of the old 39 million dollar cap is 2.379 million.

Kaberle is being paid the current going rate for a defenceman who brings offence but has defensive deficiencies..
why are you comparing to the 39M$ cap limit from years ago? makes zero sense.

anyone i've seen in this discussion is well aware of what the cap limit is. Don't assume that just b/c people disagree with you, they are somehow ignorant of the current reality.

Kaberle is overpaid b/c he is a soft player that is unreliable in his own zone, so much so that his previous team was benching, and his current team saw fit to keep him to 17-18min a game despite icing a very young/inexperienced defense.

the "going rate" is a useless term... means nothing. The best defensive team in the league doesn't have 1 player on defense earning 4M$... not 1.

Guess how many 4M$ + dmen the 2nd best defensive team in the league has... yup, ZERO.

Quote:
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People keep looking at 4.25 million and say he should be a top 4 defenceman, it quite simply isn't the case..
On a well managed team, absolutely. It's about context... and in the context of a cap system, teams can ill-afford to have players, like Kaberle, who are paid on the high end for what kind of player they are.

Kaberle is far closer to Joe Corvo than he is to any of the quality players earning 4M$. Corvo just signed for 2.25M$.

A well managed team (like Boston), quickly rids itself of a player like Kaberle when they know they can find a suitable/cheaper alternative elsewhere... and this despite the boat load of assets they gave up in getting him.

Habs, luckily, didn't give up much to get Kaberle... that's a good thing. And up until now, it doesn't appear to have hurt us much (i mean, we did absolutely nose-dive shortly after Kaberle came to town, but that's hardly his doing...).

keeping his onerous cap hit on the books this summer & into next season definitely does hurt us in that it limits the flexibility we have in pursuing other, superior, ways of improving the roster and building towards a contender.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
One only needs to look at the contract of James Wisniewski to see what the going rate for a UFA with 1 season at 45+ pts, and the ability to play second pairing minutes gets paid..
again, using an example of a contract many felt was an overpayment... and beyond that, Wizniewski rightly or wrongly, is a first pairing dman for the team who gave him that contract, & being used 100% in that manner.

Wiz is getting ~25min/game... and yet you want to compare him to kaberle, who is getting 18min/game on a team that is having just as bad of a season & who likewise has a thin d-corps???

come on...

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
One only needs to look at the arbitration award of Shea Weber to see what the going rate is for a D who plays shut down defence and scores 45+ pts is..
now were comparing Kaberle to Shea Weber?

and again with the "going rate" b.s.

What was the "going rate" for MAB this offseason? What was the going rate for Joe Corvo this offseason?

Kaberle is FAR FAR FAR closer to both of those players, than he is to S.Weber, and yet curiously you ignore the "going rate" standard they seemingly established? Cherry picking indeed.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Kaberle is NOT drastically overpaid, it just isn't true, no matter how much people want to believe it is..
what's "drastically"?

What is true is that he was paid 4.25M$ in the offseason by a team who, within 2 months, realized what a terrible mistake they'd made and unloaded him asap for a declining/oft-injured/struggling veteran on an expiring contract.
This a few months after the team who gave up a ton of quality assets for him made absolutely no effort to re-sign him, and were so little impressed with his level of play that they had him playing 16min/game in the cup finals.

no matter how enamoured you are with the Pts column on his stat line, truth is that Kaberle is a bottom-pairing dman with enough experience & puck saavy to rack up a ton of points, all the while having minimal positive overall impact on his teams results/performance.


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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
The other thing I'll point out is that people have no issue with paying 4 million dollars for D who are great defensively but bring 0 offence, in fact many people wanted to do exactly that with Mike Komisarek (before he left and before his decline).

However bring an elite offensive D (and 45+ pts every year is elite, make no mistake on that) with a weak defensive game and people are up in arms about the contract.
It's about impact.

Does someone really need to explain to you why Scott Stevens, who topped 30pts only once in his final 8 seasons, was still considered one of the best Defensmen in the league?


I think you are seriously letting yourself get blinded by the stat line...

consider last year's playoffs.

Of the top 30 scoring dmen in the playoffs (Kaberle was T-5th), only 3 played under 20min/game... Sami Salo (19:13), Cody franson (15:40) & T.Kaberle (16:00).

Impact... Kaberle, for all his offensive ability, is so weak defensively that a winning team kept his minutes as low as they possibly could.

He ranked 94th... 94th out of 112 defensemen to suit up for the playoffs last year, in E/S min/game.

take a look at the players who played a similar amount of ES/minutes, you won't find any players making anywhere near 4M$ on the that list (except Pronger, who got hurt)... but you will find MAB (who's ppg pace before getting hurt this year was very close to kaberle's... just cost 3.25M$/season less on the cap)

good teams, or I should say, smart teams, don't waste 4.25M$ in today's cap world, on a defensmen who isn't good enough to play defense except on the power play.


Last edited by Miller Time: 03-12-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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03-12-2012, 07:06 PM
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People need to realize that as a Hab Kaberle is still on pace for 45 pts.

The number of D in the entire league who scored 45 pts last year was just 18, not even one per team.

It seems some people think defencemen with this kind of production offensively grow on trees.
So that's how we rate the effectiveness of a defenseman... on his points?? And if Markov takes the majority of pp time where does Kaberle pick up the points?

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03-12-2012, 07:11 PM
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You can't use stats to argue for or against Kaberle's play.

You have to watch the games. He's a shell of his former self on both sides of the ice. OK, he can bring the puck up ice and make the occasional nice pass. That's worth $4.25M? He brings nothing to this team besides that. He is MAB without the goals for 4 times the price.

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03-12-2012, 07:13 PM
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So let me get this straight, because Spacek didn't live up to his contract in Montreal, Kaberle won't (despite the fact he's produced for ~40 games since arriving).

All you've done is show all the more reason why trading an asset who wasn't producing for the Habs in Spacek, for one who is producing for the Habs in Kaberle was a good deal.
i think I've argued from day one that Kaberle for Spacek, ignoring the cap/contract reality, is at least equal if not an advantage to us.

But why pretend that the cap doesn't exist?

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03-12-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i think I've argued from day one that Kaberle for Spacek, ignoring the cap/contract reality, is at least equal if not an advantage to us.

But why pretend that the cap doesn't exist?
Exactly. The contract is the biggest problem. If Kaberle's contract was expiring this year I'd have no issue with the move.

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03-12-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i think I've argued from day one that Kaberle for Spacek, ignoring the cap/contract reality, is at least equal if not an advantage to us.

But why pretend that the cap doesn't exist?

Because in this case, it's not really an issue.

You seriously think Habs can sign a top 6 forward and a good (#3-4) stay at home defenseman ? (I really don't expect Gomez to be back... do you ?) This summer, we should have btw 10 to 13 millions in Cap space (that after resigning our RFA).


When Pacio / Desharnais will need a raise (Summer 2013):

- Cap may be higher
- Kaberle will be easier to move (only 1 years left)
- I don't expect Habs to be able to spend everything this summer. (not enough quality UFA). Some AHL player may also be promoted (Gallagher / Leblanc / Geoffrion / Beaulieu / St-Denis)


Yes Kaberle is Overpaid. Yes if you have ANY decent offer, you move him. But Kaberle cap hit should not be your main concern.


Last edited by ProMath: 03-12-2012 at 08:51 PM.
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03-12-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ProMath View Post
Because in this case, it's not really an issue.

You seriously think Habs can sign a top 6 forward and a good (#3-4) stay at home defenseman ? (I really don't expect Gomez to be back... do you ?) This summer, we should have btw 9 to 12 millions in Cap space (that after resigning our RFA).


When Pacio / Desharnais will need a raise (Summer 2013):

- Cap may be higher
- Kaberle will be easier to move (only 1 years left)
- I don't expect Habs to be able to spend everything this summer. (not enough quality UFA). Some AHL player may also be promoted (Gallagher / Leblanc / Geoffrion / Beaulieu / St-Denis)
Assuming Gomez will be gone is like assuming Gauthier will be gone... It may be painfully obvious that it should happen, but until it does, who knows.


Praise
Semin
Doan
A. Kost

Suter

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03-12-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProMath View Post
Because in this case, it's not really an issue.

You seriously think Habs can sign a top 6 forward and a good (#3-4) stay at home defenseman ? (I really don't expect Gomez to be back... do you ?) This summer, we should have btw 9 to 12 millions in Cap space (that after resigning our RFA).


When Pacio / Desharnais will need a raise (Summer 2013):

- Cap may be higher
- Kaberle will be easier to move (only 1 years left)
- I don't expect Habs to be able to spend everything this summer. (not enough quality UFA). Some AHL player may also be promoted (Gallagher / Leblanc / Geoffrion / Beaulieu / St-Denis)
Assuming Gomez will be gone is like assuming Gauthier will be gone... It may be painfully obvious that it should happen, but until it does, who knows.


Praise
Semin
Doan
Whitney
and dint forget A. Kost

Suter
Stuart
Jackman

6 targets who, as of right now, are impending UFA, and would fill needs for us in top 6 & top 4.

Then consider that we could very much use a boost at 4th line C, & a bottom pairing/depth dman with grit...

Lots of holes that "could" b filled via UFA OR via trade (don't forget nash is likely to b moved, & were on his list).

Unlikely that we land all the players we should target...yes.

But going into next season with kaberle simply means we failed to do so, nothing to be happy with.

If there even a slight chance of improving the roster, but we need more cap space, kaberle needs to be jettison (right after gomez, though it's also realistically much tougher to move him)

IF we can move Gomez
&
IF we can't improve the roster via trade/ufa

Then sure, keep kaberle as an Overpaid bottom pairing dman...

But if there's Any offer on the table for him, better to unload & move forward carrying the extra cap space... In-season trades often hinge on just that.

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