I apologize for not being as short-sighted as yourself and not just looking at the standings. So according to you Grabo = Blake? So where does that put Kessel and Lupul? Or does that not fit with your slanted view so you aren't including them?
Yes its obviously the sexy names, its not has nothing to do with the improved prospect pool, completely reshaping the team, not having to throw all our prospects into the NHL but actually let them develop. But of course go back to quoting the standings and stating that Jason Blake and Matt Stajan would be top 2 players on the Leafs.
I'm simply not sure you're understanding my point. First of all, I didn't bring up Jason Blake or the specific players on that 2008 team...you did. My point isn't that Jason Blake is a good player, or that Kessel and Lupul aren't better players than what the '08-09 team had. My point is that here we are four years later, and while the names have changed, the results seem identical. The 12-13 Leafs are already committed to almost $58 million in cap space, with no #1 goaltender or Kulemin signed. In essence, barring some major coup by Burke this offseason, they're going be icing an identical team to this years team...one that stayed relatively healthy and still finished in the bottom third in the NHL. So, yes, I do feel comfortable in my myopia in this case...the current Leafs aren't any closer to relevancy than the '08-09 Leafs, despite having sexier names.
I understand that there is more reason for optimism for the future, but Brian Burke is entering his fifth season as the GM of the Maple Leafs, and the club remains a losing team saddled with no goaltending and bloated contracts. Having some better prospects is great, but can Leaf fans honestly tell me that Nazim Kadri and Joe Colborne are markedly better prospects than Luke Schenn and Kulemin (the top two prospects when Burke inherited the Leafs in 2008) were considered back in the fall of 2008?
The nature of this thread, and the reason that it's had so much shelf life, is that it continues to baffles us non-Leaf fans how loyal and defensive Leaf fans are towards Burke. During his tenure we've seen GM's with far less resources (worse hockey markets, Much lower internal Caps, consistently lower draft picks, etc) ice far better teams. And one other thing...I actually like Brian Burke, and I think he's a good hockey mind. I just happen to think he's done a terrible job running the Maple Leafs.
I'm simply not sure you're understanding my point. First of all, I didn't bring up Jason Blake or the specific players on that 2008 team...you did. My point isn't that Jason Blake is a good player, or that Kessel and Lupul aren't better players than what the '08-09 team had. My point is that here we are four years later, and while the names have changed, the results seem identical. The 12-13 Leafs are already committed to almost $58 million in cap space, with no #1 goaltender or Kulemin signed. In essence, barring some major coup by Burke this offseason, they're going be icing an identical team to this years team...one that stayed relatively healthy and still finished in the bottom third in the NHL. So, yes, I do feel comfortable in my myopia in this case...the current Leafs aren't any closer to relevancy than the '08-09 Leafs, despite having sexier names.
I understand that there is more reason for optimism for the future, but Brian Burke is entering his fifth season as the GM of the Maple Leafs, and the club remains a losing team saddled with no goaltending and bloated contracts. Having some better prospects is great, but can Leaf fans honestly tell me that Nazim Kadri and Joe Colborne are markedly better prospects than Luke Schenn and Kulemin (the top two prospects when Burke inherited the Leafs in 2008) were considered back in the fall of 2008?
The nature of this thread, and the reason that it's had so much shelf life, is that it continues to baffles us non-Leaf fans how loyal and defensive Leaf fans are towards Burke. During his tenure we've seen GM's with far less resources (worse hockey markets, Much lower internal Caps, consistently lower draft picks, etc) ice far better teams. And one other thing...I actually like Brian Burke, and I think he's a good hockey mind. I just happen to think he's done a terrible job running the Maple Leafs.
Better question... "If Burke was the GM of Montreal, would Habs fans defend him as much as Leaf fans do? or would Habs fans be calling for this guy's head?"...
I think we can guess the answer on that is, I am sure most Habs fans would want him canned... Hell PG has done a substandard job, not horrible, not "good" but just below average and people want this guy roasted... Burke would be toast at the end of the year if he was in Montreal.
I think Toronto fans defend him and love him because he has a big mouth and spouts off. He sticks up for the team, has catch phrases and "power words". The Toronto media and fans eat it up... He shouts down condemnations from his ivory tower to those who dare call his players "overrated" or "least liked".
Image is everything in Toronto... only makes sense they protect/defend a GM with the same philosophy.
Who cares about results if you look good failing right?
People are excited to build around Kessel and Lupul?
When you close your eyes, you see a team lead by those guys lifting a cup in 3 years? Honestly? Man those guys just aren't 4 rounds of playoffs material, and never will be. I don't get how most people can't see that.
Burke has strengths, like his moves to get Pronger and the Sedins at the draft. Those were bold. He isn't afraid to speak his mind. He is fiercely loyal.
However, his brashness, his loyalty, his ideals all get ruined by his stubbornness to admit he is wrong. The number of times he told us in Vancouver that we were set in goal was ridiculous. His loyalty to Cloutier was a joke. I can't remember how many times he was quoted about driving someone to the airport if they did not accept his terms. He is a bully and lets his ego get in the way of doing a great job. He puts himself before the team. It is evident in how much time he spends in the spotlight of the media.
And in today's cap era, you can't navigate away from your mistakes easily. I know he inherited a bunch of garbage with NTC that made his job tough. But he hasn't done the greatest on signings either. He hasn't made Toronto into a destination that free agents want to go. That is a huge failure.
Hockey is a results based business. While I agree with Burke apologists that the team is in a better place all around from when he took over, the results are no different. Stop drinking Burke's Kool Aid Leafs' Nation. Your franchise deserves better. 6 years and counting with no playoffs sucks. It is just so much worse because there are no bona fide star prospects in the system. His fast track rebuild with Kessel is only going to hurt the franchise in the long run. I'd rather have those top picks to build a core around like Edmonton is doing.
The goal is to win the Stanley Cup. It is not to make the playoffs just to have a shot. Burke's blueprint is flawed.
It amazes me that after the job Burke has done in Toronto so far Leaf fans are still making excuses for him. If i was a Leaf fan i would have tapped out a year ago.
Better question... "If Burke was the GM of Montreal, would Habs fans defend him as much as Leaf fans do? or would Habs fans be calling for this guy's head?"...
I think we can guess the answer on that is, I am sure most Habs fans would want him canned... Hell PG has done a substandard job, not horrible, not "good" but just below average and people want this guy roasted... Burke would be toast at the end of the year if he was in Montreal.
I think Toronto fans defend him and love him because he has a big mouth and spouts off. He sticks up for the team, has catch phrases and "power words". The Toronto media and fans eat it up... He shouts down condemnations from his ivory tower to those who dare call his players "overrated" or "least liked".
Image is everything in Toronto... only makes sense they protect/defend a GM with the same philosophy.
Who cares about results if you look good failing right?
It's like Mac T said he's like wizard of oz. Looks great but when you pull back the curtains there's nothing there.
According to my 81 year old dad (life long leaf fan), Burke is just a fast-talking Ballard. Dad has SEEN great leaf teams and can reminisce about great players for the Leafs. He spits Burke's name (lol). Dad never suffered fools in his long life but he wants Burke gone.
According to my 81 year old dad (life long leaf fan), Burke is just a fast-talking Ballard. Dad has SEEN great leaf teams and can reminisce about great players for the Leafs. He spits Burke's name (lol). Dad never suffered fools in his long life but he wants Burke gone.
Wow this is a great testimonial for the anti-Burke crowd if true. And the comparison to Ballard is priceless.
Honestly, this thread should have been locked a long time ago. Every single thread when the Leafs were doing well was locked, and now that we have had a bad stretch, we are on part #2 of deluded posters complaining and trolling a GM that isn't even their team.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Moderators on this forum seem to like trolling the Leafs just as much as other idiots. If this forum is going to have any respectability, IT NEEDS TO STOP. Show some sense and equality moderators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
1. He believes his draft is July 1st, every year, despite that in a cap era, it's almost impossible to get an impact player without massive overpayment from the free agency.
He said that one year when he signed a lot of players on July 1st, and despite the delusions that people have, his draft is also the draft. Even though many people on here want him to trade away his draft picks for short-term or unproven solutions, he has held onto nearly all of his draft picks, and has even added a bunch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
2. He is against long, front-loaded contracts. This caused him to not bid on the likes of Kovalchuk and others. Every successful team (Detroir, Boston, NJ) does the opposite.
He isn't against front loading contracts. He is against retirement contracts that constitute cap circumvention. He still bid on the star players. The star players decided to instead take decade long retirement contracts, contracts that MANY GMs don't do because history has proven that these contracts have or will end up hindering the franchise years down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
3. He favors big, lumbering defensemen that were good in the clutch-and-grab era and neglects puck-moving defensemen. Hence the Komisarek, Beauchemin signings, dumping Kubina, handing Schenn an expensive 5 year contract, etc. (he's NOT worth 3.6 million per year).
So the fact that he in fact traded Beauchemin means nothing? Traded Aulie means nothing? Since when is Kubina, at 6'4", 258 pounds NOT a big, lumbering defenseman? I guess we're ignoring that Gunnarsson has been given much bigger roles under Burke, ignoring that Gardiner was kept up in the NHL, and ignoring the trade for and re-signing of Liles.
I guess we're just ignoring that 4/5 of the 7 defensemen we have are offensive defencemen.
Schenn will be worth 3.6 million, and that was market value. You don't let your 22-year old former 5th overall pick, who leads defensemen in hits and has shown flashes of elite potential, walk away because he is having a slightly rougher year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
4. He neglects the draft and makes poor choices at the draft. The Leafs might have the deepest prospect pool in their history, but that's not saying much. There are no impact players or surefire stars in the prospect pool, after 4 years of drafting by Burke.
3 years of drafting by Burke. No prospect is a surefire star, and many of our prospects are too young to be given that label anyway. We have multiple top-6 prospects and multiple bottom-6 prospects.
The site you are posting on ranks the Leaf's prospect pool 8th best in the NHL, and that was before the breakout of Gardiner and Colborne.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
5. His inability to address Leafs' weaknesses in goal.
He has brought in 3 young free agent goalies. No, he hasn't overpaid and traded away our future for a quick fix, that given how goalies vary from team to team, is no better guarantee to be a quick fix anyway.
He was looking for a goalie. He found none with a reasonable price. Quick trigger fingers for goalies leaves us in the situation JFJ left, where we traded important futures for Toskala and Raycroft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
6. Self-imposed trading freezes that don't seem to have any actual benefit and no other GM actually does - and if they do, they don't publicize it.
He has one trading freeze, so that players aren't traded over Christmas. This has not hindered him in any way, and it gains him respect from players. Respect from players for a GM is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mig174
7. Boundless arrogance that stretches as far as trying to get members of the media fired. He is supposed to be managing a hockey team.
Everybody calls Cherry a blowhard and an idiot until Burke does, and then suddenly Cherry is a saint.
Cherry, who obviously has a grudge against Burke, disrespected Burke and his and his coach's respect for the troops, when they are the team that probably does the most in the entire NHL. Then Cherry was being racist towards Burke's team, saying they were inadequate because they weren't Canadian and born in Ontario.
He IS running a hockey team. He is also defending his players and personnel.
The number of people who complain about Burke being in the media is ridiculous. This is Toronto. The GM is going to be in the media. People complain when he agrees to interviews. People would complain if he turned them down. Don't complain to Burke for Burke being in the media. Complain to the media.
I'm simply not sure you're understanding my point. First of all, I didn't bring up Jason Blake or the specific players on that 2008 team...you did. My point isn't that Jason Blake is a good player, or that Kessel and Lupul aren't better players than what the '08-09 team had. My point is that here we are four years later, and while the names have changed, the results seem identical. The 12-13 Leafs are already committed to almost $58 million in cap space, with no #1 goaltender or Kulemin signed. In essence, barring some major coup by Burke this offseason, they're going be icing an identical team to this years team...one that stayed relatively healthy and still finished in the bottom third in the NHL. So, yes, I do feel comfortable in my myopia in this case...the current Leafs aren't any closer to relevancy than the '08-09 Leafs, despite having sexier names.
I understand that there is more reason for optimism for the future, but Brian Burke is entering his fifth season as the GM of the Maple Leafs, and the club remains a losing team saddled with no goaltending and bloated contracts. Having some better prospects is great, but can Leaf fans honestly tell me that Nazim Kadri and Joe Colborne are markedly better prospects than Luke Schenn and Kulemin (the top two prospects when Burke inherited the Leafs in 2008) were considered back in the fall of 2008?
The nature of this thread, and the reason that it's had so much shelf life, is that it continues to baffles us non-Leaf fans how loyal and defensive Leaf fans are towards Burke. During his tenure we've seen GM's with far less resources (worse hockey markets, Much lower internal Caps, consistently lower draft picks, etc) ice far better teams. And one other thing...I actually like Brian Burke, and I think he's a good hockey mind. I just happen to think he's done a terrible job running the Maple Leafs.
Personally, next year is the year he has to show the progress then he should be gone. Looking at the standings they will probably have the same results, but I find it hard to believe that anyone can say by looking at the rosters that this years Leafs aren't better than in 2008-2009.
Are Kadri and Colborne better than Schenn and Kulemin? Not by much by they are no longer are reliant on a few prospects like Schenn or Tlusty to develop in legitimate NHLers to improve their team. Prospects can stay in the AHL and develop instead of being thrown into the NHL at 18 or 19.
Nature of this thread? Well excuse me for not joining the fad of the week and criticizing Burke non stop, for a team up till a month ago did show some sort of improvement. Because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them defensive. If you just want to sit around and listen to people with the exact same opinion on the subject as you an internet forum probably isn't the best place for you. If want the nature of this thread look no further than the regular childish 'Drinking the Koolaid' posts.
The nature of this thread, and the reason that it's had so much shelf life, is that it continues to baffles us non-Leaf fans how loyal and defensive Leaf fans are towards Burke. During his tenure we've seen GM's with far less resources (worse hockey markets, Much lower internal Caps, consistently lower draft picks, etc) ice far better teams.
The bottom 10 teams in 2008 were:
Tampa Bay-Started with St Louis and Lecavalier, made playoffs 1X, 2 series wins playoff bubble team
LA-Had been rebuilding for many years prior to the Leafs, made playoffs 2X, no series wins, 4 total playoff wins. Playoff bubble team
Atlanta-Have not made playoffs since, started with Kovalchuk, Hossa, Lehtonen. Playoff bubble team.
Islanders-Nothing good to add here, not in playoffs
St Louis-rebuilding for many years before Toronto, made playoffs in 2008-2009 lost in 4 straight.
Very good team
Columbus-Rebuilding for many years, started with Rick Nash. Made playoffs in 08-09, swept in 1st round, worst team in league
Phoenix- number of top 10 picks before 2008, made playoffs 2X ('10 and '11) 3 playoff wins in 2 series. Good team, lets see what they can do.
Toronto-
Florida-been rebuilding for numerous years before 2008, started with Weiss, Booth, JayBo, Horton etc etc, failed to make playoffs, although should make them this year. Playoff bubble team.
Vancouver-disappointing season in 2008, started with Kesler, Sedin, Sedin, Luongo, Bieksa etc etc
So who else should we look at who has done more with less? Edmonton? Calgary? Hurricanes? Capitals? avalanche? Senators?
Last edited by smoke meat pete*: 03-09-2012 at 06:57 PM.
People are excited to build around Kessel and Lupul?
When you close your eyes, you see a team lead by those guys lifting a cup in 3 years? Honestly? Man those guys just aren't 4 rounds of playoffs material, and never will be. I don't get how most people can't see that.
Tell me honestly. At the beginning of last year, did you think that the Bruins had a team that was good enough to bring home the cup?
He said that one year when he signed a lot of players on July 1st, and despite the delusions that people have, his draft is also the draft. Even though many people on here want him to trade away his draft picks for short-term or unproven solutions, he has held onto nearly all of his draft picks, and has even added a bunch.
The "July 1st is our Draft day" quote was from 2010 (to deflect attention away from giving up the second-pick overall). Who did Burke sign in free agency that July? Colby Armstrong.
And he has kept most of his picks? Well, he didn't keep his two best ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin
Schenn will be worth 3.6 million, and that was market value. You don't let your 22-year old former 5th overall pick, who leads defensemen in hits and has shown flashes of elite potential, walk away because he is having a slightly rougher year.
Market value. That's the excuse given for every one of Burke's bloated contracts. $3 million for Armstrong? Market value. $4.5 million for Komisarek? Market value. $4.75 for Connolly? Market value. Now $5.5 million for Grabovski? Market value.
Burke is the highest paid GM to do what the "market" would allegedly do?
He wasn't going anywhere as he was an RFA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin
Everybody calls Cherry a blowhard and an idiot until Burke does, and then suddenly Cherry is a saint.
Cherry, who obviously has a grudge against Burke, disrespected Burke and his and his coach's respect for the troops, when they are the team that probably does the most in the entire NHL. Then Cherry was being racist towards Burke's team, saying they were inadequate because they weren't Canadian and born in Ontario.
Cherry is a blowhard and an idiot, but Burke shouldn't try to use his clout to fire members of the media who criticize him or his team. Makes him like a bully and a cry-baby.
So a region is now a race? Cherry is out to lunch here too, but now a fing region is a race? What race would that be? What race is BC and what race is Saskatchewan? This should be an interesting answer.
Wow this is a great testimonial for the anti-Burke crowd if true. And the comparison to Ballard is priceless.
Comparing Harold Ballard to Brian Burke is beyond ridiculous. There's nothing priceless about it at all. I don't care how bad you dislike what Burke is doing to the team.
Tampa Bay-Started with St Louis and Lecavalier, made playoffs 1X, 2 series wins playoff bubble team
LA-Had been rebuilding for many years prior to the Leafs, made playoffs 2X, no series wins, 4 total playoff wins. Playoff bubble team
Atlanta-Have not made playoffs since, started with Kovalchuk, Hossa, Lehtonen. Playoff bubble team.
Islanders-Nothing good to add here, not in playoffs
St Louis-rebuilding for many years before Toronto, made playoffs in 2008-2009 lost in 4 straight.
Very good team
Columbus-Rebuilding for many years, started with Rick Nash. Made playoffs in 08-09, swept in 1st round, worst team in league
Phoenix- number of top 10 picks before 2008, made playoffs 2X ('10 and '11) 3 playoff wins in 2 series. Good team, lets see what they can do.
Toronto-
Florida-been rebuilding for numerous years before 2008, started with Weiss, Booth, JayBo, Horton etc etc, failed to make playoffs, although should make them this year. Playoff bubble team.
Vancouver-disappointing season in 2008, started with Kesler, Sedin, Sedin, Luongo, Bieksa etc etc
So who else should we look at who has done more with less? Edmonton? Calgary? Hurricanes? Capitals? avalanche? Senators?
This is what you culled from my post. Simply take the bottom 10 teams (you left out Chicago by the way) that season, and tell us what good players they had already on the roster? I think it's fair to say you completely missed the point on this. If we're simply looking at this list here, 8 of these 10 teams have done more during this time frame. The Isles and Blue Jackets are the obvious exceptions, and those are two of the worst run franchises in hockey. But 8 of these teams are now better off than Toronto is, regardless of the peripheral semantics that you added to the post.
I thought I was pretty clear with my intent but I guess not. I was pointing out that being the GM for the Maple Leafs comes with inherent advantages that other organizations do not have all the time. Toronto is an original 6 city, they spend to the cap every year, they should have the ability to attract UFA's given how many grew up in Ontario, and Burke has essentially been given the green light to bury bad contracts in the AHL if he were to screw up. Those are all advantages that not every GM has.
Yet we consistently see GM's with none of these advantages find a way to put a better product on the ice. Somehow Nashville does it every year, Phoenix does it with the deck stacked against them every year, Dale Tallon took over a grease fire in Florida and has them poised to win the SE Division, Dallas finds a way every year, Ottawa only needed a year to remake themselves, etc. All of these teams (plus the ones above that you cited other than Columbus and NYI) have found a way to improve their fortunes, and Brian Burke has the Leafs pretty much exactly in the same spot as he found them...out of the playoffs, largely devoid of cap space, without starting goaltending, and riddled with bad contracts....but now with all new faces!
Shift the goalposts? Or just set the parameters so that Toronto, and Burke is sure to lose. The Leafs started this rebuild in 2008, and were still going down from there, and yet, in the standings there is marginal difference between almost all of these teams. I don't believe Chicago was top 10, so I'm not lying and fact is they were on the upswing.
My point is, a team starting a rebuild in 2008, on the downswing without a single decent asset/veteran to sell, you should not have expected them to be considerably better than they are today, no matter what Bourke said.
I believe many of you guys hold him to an unreasonable standard, especially considering they are in a group of teams who were all around them at the bottom of the standings in 2008. TB, LA, Columbus, NYI.
