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Is Halak a product of his team?

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He is a product of his team. 23 13.53%
He is able to carry a team and he is doing it with Blues to some extent. 27 15.88%
He is a good goalie on a good team. 120 70.59%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-09-2012, 05:37 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
the most underrated goalie on HF
I think Marc Andre Fleury has something to say about that.

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03-09-2012, 05:41 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Blitzburgh87 View Post
I think Marc Andre Fleury has something to say about that.
I routinely see MAF get recognition of being in the top 10 and being one of the top goalies. MAF is not underrated around here IMO. Especially considering Halak's SV% is better than MAF and MAF gets more recognition. To have a high sv% and face low amounts of shots is pretty incredible.

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03-09-2012, 06:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Inglorious One View Post
Halak is a top 10 goalie IMO.

Now Elliott I would say is more a product of the team.
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting the Blues play better defense in front of Elliott than they do for Halak? I could sort of buy into the idea that Elliott, amazing year aside, has more to prove than Halak given his up-and-down history (if that's what you're getting at), but you make it sound as if Elliott is somehow benefiting from the Blues' strong team defense in a way that Halak isn't. Maybe you could clarify it for me.


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Old
03-09-2012, 07:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by kittensmasher View Post
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting the Blues play better defense in front of Elliott than they do for Halak? I could sort of buy into the idea that Elliott, amazing year aside, has more to prove than Halak given his up-and-down history (if that's what you're getting at), but you make it sound as if Elliott is somehow benefiting from the Blues' strong team defense in a way that Halak isn't. Maybe you could clarify it for me.
What I'm saying is if both goalies were playing for a different team without as strong a defense (not going to name a team for sake of upsetting an entire fan base)that Halak's numbers would look better and closer to his current numbers than Elliott's would.

I don't think Brian Elliott is as good as Halak. I love what he's doing and I'm glad he's flourishing with us and he provides exactly what Halak needs in a backup...but he's a backup.

I think Jaroslav Halak, while certainly getting a bit of a boost from the team around him, is capable of becoming an elite goaltender in this league. I don't think the same for Brian Elliott.

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03-09-2012, 07:58 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kittensmasher View Post
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting the Blues play better defense in front of Elliott than they do for Halak? I could sort of buy into the idea that Elliott, amazing year aside, has more to prove than Halak given his up-and-down history (if that's what you're getting at), but you make it sound as if Elliott is somehow benefiting from the Blues' strong team defense in a way that Halak isn't. Maybe you could clarify it for me.
As I've said when he was a Senator, Elliott reminds me of a slightly weaker version of Jimmy Howard. Both goalies are a product of their team.

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03-09-2012, 08:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RedWhiteBlackGold View Post
As I've said when he was a Senator, Elliott reminds me of a slightly weaker version of Jimmy Howard. Both goalies are a product of their team.
I'm almost more annoyed by the Jimmy Howard comment.

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03-09-2012, 08:20 PM
  #32
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We knew he was awesome before he came to St. Louis.

End of discussion.

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03-09-2012, 08:54 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
No Halak is sick. I maintain that Montreal made a mistake. Not a knock on Carey Price but Halak is better.
Halak can be a solid goalie but I'd rank him about #10-12 league-wide.

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03-09-2012, 09:04 PM
  #34
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03-09-2012, 09:04 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inglorious One View Post
What I'm saying is if both goalies were playing for a different team without as strong a defense (not going to name a team for sake of upsetting an entire fan base)that Halak's numbers would look better and closer to his current numbers than Elliott's would.

I don't think Brian Elliott is as good as Halak. I love what he's doing and I'm glad he's flourishing with us and he provides exactly what Halak needs in a backup...but he's a backup.
Gotcha. I don't agree, but that makes more sense.

In my view, Elliott has been every bit as good as Halak this season. I would even argue that Elliott's overall body of work this year has been slightly more impressive because Halak had a poor October whereas Elliott has played at a high level throughout the whole year. Will Halak have the better career? I wouldn't be surprised. But if we're talking about their respective performances this year, then no, I don't think Elliott's numbers would be hit harder than Halak's on a defensively weaker team.

Elliott may have gradually slid back into the traditional "back-up" role over the past 2-3 months, but that's not (in my opinion) because of a drop-off in his level of play. I think it's more a case of the guy who was the consensus #1 at the start of the year and the franchise's planned #1 guy moving forward (Halak) earning back the right to the reigns, so to speak, by overcoming a poor start and consistently matching the standard that Elliott set during the first half of the season. Furthermore, I can understand the mentality of wanting to enter the playoffs with a clear #1 goalie, which I think is another reason why Halak has gradually earned back the majority of the starts.

In short: Elliott may currently be fulfilling the role of a backup, but he's played like a #1 this year.

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03-10-2012, 03:56 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I routinely see MAF get recognition of being in the top 10 and being one of the top goalies. MAF is not underrated around here IMO. Especially considering Halak's SV% is better than MAF and MAF gets more recognition. To have a high sv% and face low amounts of shots is pretty incredible.
I personally don't believe halak could hold a candle to fleury. Everyone worried so much about save % and GAA average but that can be a product of the defense infront of you. Much like halak or how brizgalov was. Pittsburgh is an offense first kind of system so obviously his stats will inflate alittle bit but if fleury played for the blues coyotes or any other defensive minded team he'd be right up their with Thomas and lundqvist.

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03-10-2012, 07:39 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Blitzburgh87 View Post
I personally don't believe halak could hold a candle to fleury. Everyone worried so much about save % and GAA average but that can be a product of the defense infront of you. Much like halak or how brizgalov was. Pittsburgh is an offense first kind of system so obviously his stats will inflate alittle bit but if fleury played for the blues coyotes or any other defensive minded team he'd be right up their with Thomas and lundqvist.
jss...i hope you are just trolling...well known old motto : the best defense is offense...so if your team is camping in O zone its obvious that goalie will have much less work and will be forced only to do timely saves when its needed...ist same as if you have skilled D with tons of blocked shots and your goalie need to do same timely saves when its needed...so

team with great offensive power and offensive system = team with great defensive power and defensive system

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03-10-2012, 07:40 AM
  #38
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Well...

I don't think you can say he is the product of his team. As he's done this kind of thing before... with another team.

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03-10-2012, 10:29 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I'd put more in the top 20 range than top 10. All goalies stats are somewhat influenced by the team in front of them, some teams allow a lot of high percentage scoring chances, some allow few high percentage scoring chances. St. Louis are a great defensive team, who do a great job of trapping in the neutral zone and limiting odd man rushes (which are one of the highest percentage plays in the game), so I think his stats look better than they would on a team like Toronto, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When he played for Montreal, they also had a fairly tight defensive system. He's a legit starting goalie IMO, a top 20ish goalie in the league, but not as elite as his stats suggest. Calling him top 10 is IMO kind of crazy, no way I take him over any of these 11:
- Lundqvist
- Thomas
- Rinne
- Luongo
- Quick
- Fleury
- Price
- Kiprusoff
- Miller
- Ward

I think he's more with goalies outside the top 10, like Lehtonen, Niemi, Backstrom, Elliott, Pavelec, Anderson, Rask, Schneider, etc.

One thing though, why does him being small mean he can't handle a full workload? Of the current small starters, Nabokov had 77, 71, 67 and 66 game seasons, Theodore had two 67 game seasons, Thomas doesn't play a tonne (has never played more than 66 games in a season) but he didn't really break out until he was already into his 30s. Irbe is the smallest goalie I can remember, and he had seasons where he played 77, 75 and 74 games. I don't see how being small means you can't play as much, if anything smaller athletes tend to suffer less wear/tear/stress on their bodies, simply because they don't have to carry so much weight around.

I didn't vote, as I think he's a legit starter, but not the franchise goalie/superstar his sv% and GAA would suggest. Didn't really see the option for that one.
I would take Halak over most of those goalies. Halak's GAA maybe inflated because of the Blues strong defense, but Halak's sv% doesn't lie.

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03-10-2012, 10:34 AM
  #40
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Nope. Watch some Blues games.

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03-10-2012, 10:42 AM
  #41
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Obviously his stats are inflated. Unless Elliot became an elite goaltender in 1 year, I dont know how anyone could say Halak is not somewhat a product of his team.

I'm a big Halak fan. Hope he plays like he did in '10 and wins the Conn Smythe.

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03-10-2012, 12:28 PM
  #42
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If any of you watched Blues game and didn't just look at his numbers, everyone would know he is an elite goalie

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03-10-2012, 12:30 PM
  #43
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Halak, Elliott, Leclaire, Mason, Roloson (MIN).

Great stats while playing a great defensive system. Bad without it.

2+2=4

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03-10-2012, 12:31 PM
  #44
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i keep waiting for the regression towards the mean with elliot, its bound to happen, hopefully just not come playoff time

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03-10-2012, 12:34 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Halak, Elliott, Leclaire, Mason, Roloson (MIN).

Great stats while playing a great defensive system. Bad without it.

2+2=4
Leave Halak out of that and your right. He was great before StL anyways.

He's only 26 too so there's a lot of potential.

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03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
  #46
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Halak is a top 10 goaltender in the NHL... problem is, he can't play more than 60 games per season so you have to have a decent backup.

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03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I'd put more in the top 20 range than top 10. All goalies stats are somewhat influenced by the team in front of them, some teams allow a lot of high percentage scoring chances, some allow few high percentage scoring chances. St. Louis are a great defensive team, who do a great job of trapping in the neutral zone and limiting odd man rushes (which are one of the highest percentage plays in the game), so I think his stats look better than they would on a team like Toronto, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When he played for Montreal, they also had a fairly tight defensive system. He's a legit starting goalie IMO, a top 20ish goalie in the league, but not as elite as his stats suggest. Calling him top 10 is IMO kind of crazy, no way I take him over any of these 11:
- Lundqvist
- Thomas
- Rinne
- Luongo
- Quick
- Fleury
- Price
- Kiprusoff
- Miller
- Ward

I think he's more with goalies outside the top 10, like Lehtonen, Niemi, Backstrom, Elliott, Pavelec, Anderson, Rask, Schneider, etc.

One thing though, why does him being small mean he can't handle a full workload? Of the current small starters, Nabokov had 77, 71, 67 and 66 game seasons, Theodore had two 67 game seasons, Thomas doesn't play a tonne (has never played more than 66 games in a season) but he didn't really break out until he was already into his 30s. Irbe is the smallest goalie I can remember, and he had seasons where he played 77, 75 and 74 games. I don't see how being small means you can't play as much, if anything smaller athletes tend to suffer less wear/tear/stress on their bodies, simply because they don't have to carry so much weight around.

I didn't vote, as I think he's a legit starter, but not the franchise goalie/superstar his sv% and GAA would suggest. Didn't really see the option for that one.
You really think Price is a better goalie right NOW? Yea, price has much more potential then halak, but price can thank halak for a starting job, because if he was still in montreal, hed be their starter, plus hes hot a way better nickname

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03-10-2012, 12:43 PM
  #48
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People like to look at stats and talk but if you aren't watching the Blues game in and game out you can't comment on the poll. While we may let up the fewest shots in the NHL and we play a defensive game, doesn't mean that is the only reason why Halak's and Elliott's numbers are so high. Both of these guys come every game and give it everything they have.

Just because we give a low amount of shots up doesn't show the quality of the shots. Because Quality>Quantity, the goalies in St. Louis have bailed us out so many times and made so many highlight reel saves this season it's been unreal.

Edit: Forgot to say you are the same people at the beginning of the season before Hitchcock took over that said Brian Elliott was just a hot goalie and would come down soon. Now you are saying he is just a product of a system, and its obvious because he sucked for Ottawa and Colorado. Could it just have been that Ottawa and Colorado sucked last year? HF just amazes me sometimes.

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03-10-2012, 12:48 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I'd put more in the top 20 range than top 10. All goalies stats are somewhat influenced by the team in front of them, some teams allow a lot of high percentage scoring chances, some allow few high percentage scoring chances. St. Louis are a great defensive team, who do a great job of trapping in the neutral zone and limiting odd man rushes (which are one of the highest percentage plays in the game), so I think his stats look better than they would on a team like Toronto, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When he played for Montreal, they also had a fairly tight defensive system. He's a legit starting goalie IMO, a top 20ish goalie in the league, but not as elite as his stats suggest. Calling him top 10 is IMO kind of crazy, no way I take him over any of these 11:
- Lundqvist
- Thomas
- Rinne
- Luongo
- Quick
- Fleury
- Price
- Kiprusoff
- Miller
- Ward

I think he's more with goalies outside the top 10, like Lehtonen, Niemi, Backstrom, Elliott, Pavelec, Anderson, Rask, Schneider, etc.

One thing though, why does him being small mean he can't handle a full workload? Of the current small starters, Nabokov had 77, 71, 67 and 66 game seasons, Theodore had two 67 game seasons, Thomas doesn't play a tonne (has never played more than 66 games in a season) but he didn't really break out until he was already into his 30s. Irbe is the smallest goalie I can remember, and he had seasons where he played 77, 75 and 74 games. I don't see how being small means you can't play as much, if anything smaller athletes tend to suffer less wear/tear/stress on their bodies, simply because they don't have to carry so much weight around.

I didn't vote, as I think he's a legit starter, but not the franchise goalie/superstar his sv% and GAA would suggest. Didn't really see the option for that one.
I'd take Halak over:

Ward

Thomas (Halak is 11 years younger, making him more valuable)

Kiprusoff

Fleury

Price

At crossroads with Miller and Quick.

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Old
03-10-2012, 12:56 PM
  #50
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Well, the Blues system definitely helps him, but come on, he took the Montreal Canadiens to Conference Finals. They were a product of him.

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