HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Notices

Structure vs. Chaos

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-09-2012, 01:17 PM
  #1
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
Structure vs. Chaos

Watching last night, and seeing how little structure the Blue Jackets had, naturally made me think about our system in comparison and the comments by Johnson when he was traded.

On one side of the coin you have exciting teams like Edmonton, Philly, Washington (of the Boudreau era), Chicago, San Jose to some degree, Columbus of late and Tampa Bay. It's a system that almost thrives on chaos. It thrives on players just playing and shift after shift of pressure at almost all costs (Defensemen activating, forwards cherry picking etc.) It comes however with varying degrees of success...

Then you have teams like Us, Phoenix, St. Louis, Nashville, Buffalo, New Jersey, who play very slow, very boring but historically very effective hockey.

I have seen a lot of comments about how we need to play post lockout hockey. A stance I tend to agree with. But that notion of post lockout hockey, to me throws a lot more out the window and opens the barn doors a lot more.

Obviously I would look for something of a mixture, like Boston or Pitt, but honestly, at this point I would almost love to see a Quinnville/Crawford style of approach....JUST GO. Defense? Oh we'll worry about that later. And it's not because I think it will be successful I just really want to see if it would drastically change the mindset of players like Kopitar, Doughty, or Brown, who even in the post lockout era were forced to play dead puck era hockey under Terry Murray and now Darryl Sutter.

Maybe it should be like legal drinking. You stay sober til 21, then when you hit 21 and realize you can drink with no repercussion so you go nuts. Then you get a bad hang over and find a happy medium.

Do you think we need a coach who will just take the car keys and let us go nuts?

What would you guys rather see? Lock it down more, become St. Louis? Structure structure structure...

Or Tom Renney let's just go play pond hockey.

What are we more suited to play with this personnel?

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:29 PM
  #2
Johnny Utah
Registered User
 
Johnny Utah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,918
vCash: 500
Ted Purcell - 66 games, 20 goals, 35 assists.
Wayne Simmonds - 66 games, 22 goals, 18 assists
Brayden Schenn - 38 games, 9 goals, 3 assists
Matt Moulson - 67 games, 28 goals, 28 assists
Brian Boyle - 66 games, 5 goals, 12 assists (BUT, 21 goals last year)
Jack Johnson - 6 games, 2 goals, 2 assists

Enough said?

Johnny Utah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:35 PM
  #3
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Ted Purcell - 66 games, 20 goals, 35 assists.
Wayne Simmonds - 66 games, 22 goals, 18 assists
Brayden Schenn - 38 games, 9 goals, 3 assists
Matt Moulson - 67 games, 28 goals, 28 assists
Brian Boyle - 66 games, 5 goals, 12 assists (BUT, 21 goals last year)
Jack Johnson - 6 games, 2 goals, 2 assists

Enough said?
Hi Johnny,

I am sorry but I am not certain I get your point (seriously) and was wondering if you could outline it for me? I mean I sort of get it but I am not certain. Thanks in advance.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:39 PM
  #4
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
Right. That's all great and fine JU, but 3 of those players you listed are on teams WELL out of the playoffs. One of them hardly plays and his having an AWFUL YEAR (Brian Boyle).

Maybe structure is what held back the players but helped the team be successful?

That's kind of where my interest lies. How many people on here would honestly be willing to say **** it and let them play however they wanted. That's certainly what teams like NYI and Columbus do. And while they benefit from great seasons from guys like Moulson and Grabner...at the end of the day they aren't a playoff team.

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:41 PM
  #5
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
I mean do you realize that Wayne Simmonds is only a +1? Again +/- should never be used as a statistic to gauge quality of play. But it does tell you that he is either

A) getting a lot of these points on PP (Which he is)
and/or
B) his 5 on 5 play is average at best. Probably because of Laviolettes free style. We've seen Philly give up TONS of goals in games amirite?

Brayden Schenn is also a - player fyi.

Take that for what you will. It may mean nothing but it's something to think about.


With 79 points, and people acting like he is a god. How does Claude Giroux only have a +4?

I know people want to write of +/- but sometimes those numbers do make you wonder right?

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:43 PM
  #6
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,387
vCash: 500
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I would like some balance, but also a coach that is capable recognizing and developing the talent of individual players on both sides of the puck.

I'd be curios to know what offensive talents have been developed by Sutter and Murray.

johnjm22 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:45 PM
  #7
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I would like some balance, but also a coach that is capable recognizing and developing the talent of individual players on both sides of the puck.
Ala Dan Bylsma? John Tortorella?

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:45 PM
  #8
ShattStar03
Registered User
 
ShattStar03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Claremont, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,498
vCash: 500
I don't think its about "Structure vs. Chaos" per say, its about utilizing your assets and resources that will maximize your production.

Hell, I would be in total favor of this boring system if it showed some results but its obviously not working.

ShattStar03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:47 PM
  #9
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,387
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
A) getting a lot of these points on PP (Which he is)
and/or
B) his 5 on 5 play is average at best. Probably because of Laviolettes free style. We've seen Philly give up TONS of goals in games amirite?
He was one of our best 5 on 5 players when he was here.

And it's easy to say that "he's getting a lot of PP time." But why wasn't he getting it here? Murray was unable to recognize his offensive upside and utilize it.

johnjm22 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:48 PM
  #10
Perro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Ted Purcell - 66 games, 20 goals, 35 assists.
Wayne Simmonds - 66 games, 22 goals, 18 assists
Brayden Schenn - 38 games, 9 goals, 3 assists
Matt Moulson - 67 games, 28 goals, 28 assists
Brian Boyle - 66 games, 5 goals, 12 assists (BUT, 21 goals last year)
Jack Johnson - 6 games, 2 goals, 2 assists

Enough said?
Moulson and Purcell's numbers are inflated due to playing with Stamkos and Taveres.

Perro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:49 PM
  #11
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
He was one of our best 5 on 5 players when he was here.

And it's easy to say that "he's getting a lot of PP time." But why wasn't he getting it here? Murray was unable to recognize his offensive upside and utilize it.
That's a valid argument. His Sophomore season he was easily one of the best 5 on 5ers. His 3rd season I wish I could say the same but you bring up an interesting point.

But could that also be benefit of playing with Michal Handzus? (just playing devils advocate here I agree with you)

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:54 PM
  #12
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,387
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Ala Dan Bylsma? John Tortorella?
Either one, but with someone like Crawford as an assistant. It's not a coincidence that everywhere Marc goes offense players develop. Eriksson, Benn and Neal most recently.

johnjm22 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 01:58 PM
  #13
Johnny Utah
Registered User
 
Johnny Utah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,918
vCash: 500
My point is that Murray didn't utilize certain players to there best abilities and now they are progressing elsewhere.

What did JJ say last night in his interview that was key..."the Kings tried to change me and Columbus is letting me be myself."

Who had a career year under Murray or Sutter so far? No one.

Johnny Utah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:02 PM
  #14
motalar
Registered User
 
motalar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: dalen
Country: Sweden
Posts: 960
vCash: 500
Where does Detroits style fit into all this, because that is what I would be trying to emulate.

motalar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:05 PM
  #15
KingsFan7824
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,819
vCash: 500
A Gretzky-led-Oilers type total of 10-15 more goals scored as a team at this point in the season and everyone would be happy as the Kings would probably be much higher in the standings.

Say there are 2 good chances per game over the course of the season that the Kings haven't scored on. Not even 1 per period. That's 134 chances through 67 games. Some games fewer chances, others more, whatever. Is there something that the Kings could possibly be doing, in the offensive or defensive zones, that is so structurally deficient, that they couldn't have scored 10-15 more goals right now? They've gotten far more chances than it should take to score 10-15 more goals.

There are only so many ways to play hockey. They're all pretty much the same. They've all been seen. It comes down to execution and determination. Those are two things the Kings have lacked any consistency in for years. Outwork your opponent, and make the basic play, and it doesn't matter what system you use.

KingsFan7824 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:05 PM
  #16
Axl Rhoadz*
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 891
vCash: 500
Yzerman Finally Won Because He Changed His Game

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NHL legend says that Steve Yzerman was a high scoring center who had to conform to a team game, learn defense and make hard sacrifices to finally win a cup. While this is often praised as a sign of greatness, and is undoubtedly a great example of Yzerman's character and will to succeed, was it actually a good thing in hockey terms that he had to change what he was good at in order to finally succeed? You often hear about the importance to play your own brand of hockey, and dictate the play against the opposition. What if his one dimensional offense had been successful in winning the Stanley Cup without the prolonged struggles to the top the way a young team like Chicago did with guys like Patrick Kane? Is it a failing of sorts that Yzerman couldn't power the Red Wings to victory playing a run and gun style of hockey? Would that have ultimately takem away from his legend?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=959145

Axl Rhoadz* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:05 PM
  #17
Johnny Utah
Registered User
 
Johnny Utah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,918
vCash: 500
Detroit's style is winning, making the playoffs every year and making good trades...we can't do that...

Johnny Utah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:11 PM
  #18
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,940
vCash: 500
JU, you fail to look at things both ways. Yes, you can post Ted Purcell and Matt Moulson's totals, and they are valid players to look at. But why not post the numbers of players like Patrick O'Sullivan? It's not like everyone who leaves LA flourishes. In fact, the only two from your list I at all regreat losing is Purcell and Moulson. Boyle, sorry, he had a hot 20 games stretch last year, that's it. Other than that, he's been a 4th liner mostly.

Schenn and Simmonds for Richards, even with his recent struggles, I'd do that deal again in a heartbeat. Besides, Schenn didn't flourish after being in LA's system, he played all of 9 games, as a teenager, in LA.

For the main point of the thread, I honestly think our system would work beautifully if we weren't, IMO, so damn slow. We don't have near enough footspeed on this team, and what we do have are in guys like Brad Richardson and Trevor Lewis, who are Craig Johnson 2.0

Carter helps, but if you look at the likes of Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. they have a great tempo. They play at a high speed. Even Detroit does, because they let their faster guys move the puck, stretching the defense and creating a faster flow for the slower players. We do not do that. We are around average to slightly below average in sheer foot speed, and we play a breakout style that basically brings us to a standstill before we even turn to bring the puck up ice. Our transition game can be timed with a sundial.

I've agreed with people we could use some more size on the lower lines, but we also need a better combo of speed and hands. Right now, outside of maybe Carter, anyone with speed doesn't have hands, and vice versa. Who stretches the D? Who beats players in foot races? Who can go around the D wide regularly?

When Drew Doughty is the best answer to those questions, you have a problem, because a D-man should never be the go to option.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:15 PM
  #19
Johnny Utah
Registered User
 
Johnny Utah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,918
vCash: 500
It aggravates me to hear Johnson say what he said last night about the Kings tried to change him. Then you have Simmonds having the kind of year he is having and Purcell, Moulson flourishing...Doesn't this bother anyone? Or make anyone wonder about anything?

I would rather have younger, cheaper, grittier players with LA tattooed on there ass than a bunch of cast off's from Philly and Edmonton.

Simmonds slept on Lombardi's couch, Johnson took a pay cut and negotiated his own deal. Heck, you can even bring Visnovsky into this, Lombardi promised him he would stick around and he dealt him. No problem with that deal, but dealing guys who were committed to this organization for players who's hearts are in another organization? I just don't get it.

Johnny Utah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:16 PM
  #20
Perro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
JU, you fail to look at things both ways. Yes, you can post Ted Purcell and Matt Moulson's totals, and they are valid players to look at. But why not post the numbers of players like Patrick O'Sullivan? It's not like everyone who leaves LA flourishes. In fact, the only two from your list I at all regreat losing is Purcell and Moulson. Boyle, sorry, he had a hot 20 games stretch last year, that's it. Other than that, he's been a 4th liner mostly.

Schenn and Simmonds for Richards, even with his recent struggles, I'd do that deal again in a heartbeat. Besides, Schenn didn't flourish after being in LA's system, he played all of 9 games, as a teenager, in LA.

For the main point of the thread, I honestly think our system would work beautifully if we weren't, IMO, so damn slow. We don't have near enough footspeed on this team, and what we do have are in guys like Brad Richardson and Trevor Lewis, who are Craig Johnson 2.0

Carter helps, but if you look at the likes of Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. they have a great tempo. They play at a high speed. Even Detroit does, because they let their faster guys move the puck, stretching the defense and creating a faster flow for the slower players. We do not do that. We are around average to slightly below average in sheer foot speed, and we play a breakout style that basically brings us to a standstill before we even turn to bring the puck up ice. Our transition game can be timed with a sundial.

I've agreed with people we could use some more size on the lower lines, but we also need a better combo of speed and hands. Right now, outside of maybe Carter, anyone with speed doesn't have hands, and vice versa. Who stretches the D? Who beats players in foot races? Who can go around the D wide regularly?

When Drew Doughty is the best answer to those questions, you have a problem, because a D-man should never be the go to option.
well put. I miss Moulson and Purcell but am glad they are having success in the NHL, and am glad it is with Eastern teams.
I think we (i am inclduing myseld) need to realize it is time to get over these playes and focus on what we have.
I am concerned that our cubourds are starting to look very bare, and we do not have the next Purcell or Moulson coming up through the system to even loose.

Perro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:19 PM
  #21
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,014
vCash: 500
Yea let's put some players in perspective here.

O'Sullivan
Tambellini
Boyle
Tukonen
Petiot
Huet
Steckel
Lilja
Yachemenev


it's a mixed bag. Just like EVERY team. Some go on to be good, some just become average, some don't ever do anything.



But to get BACK on topic. I would say Detroits system is very unique. That team has so much experience on it that I doubt Babcock does anything out of this world. Not to take anything away from him, but he's got a team that could be led to conference finals with a dancing bear behind the bench.

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:20 PM
  #22
KingsFan7824
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
JU, you fail to look at things both ways. Yes, you can post Ted Purcell and Matt Moulson's totals, and they are valid players to look at. But why not post the numbers of players like Patrick O'Sullivan? It's not like everyone who leaves LA flourishes. In fact, the only two from your list I at all regreat losing is Purcell and Moulson. Boyle, sorry, he had a hot 20 games stretch last year, that's it. Other than that, he's been a 4th liner mostly.

Schenn and Simmonds for Richards, even with his recent struggles, I'd do that deal again in a heartbeat. Besides, Schenn didn't flourish after being in LA's system, he played all of 9 games, as a teenager, in LA.

For the main point of the thread, I honestly think our system would work beautifully if we weren't, IMO, so damn slow. We don't have near enough footspeed on this team, and what we do have are in guys like Brad Richardson and Trevor Lewis, who are Craig Johnson 2.0

Carter helps, but if you look at the likes of Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. they have a great tempo. They play at a high speed. Even Detroit does, because they let their faster guys move the puck, stretching the defense and creating a faster flow for the slower players. We do not do that. We are around average to slightly below average in sheer foot speed, and we play a breakout style that basically brings us to a standstill before we even turn to bring the puck up ice. Our transition game can be timed with a sundial.

I've agreed with people we could use some more size on the lower lines, but we also need a better combo of speed and hands. Right now, outside of maybe Carter, anyone with speed doesn't have hands, and vice versa. Who stretches the D? Who beats players in foot races? Who can go around the D wide regularly?

When Drew Doughty is the best answer to those questions, you have a problem, because a D-man should never be the go to option.
If the Kings could make a couple decent passes in a row on any sort of consistent basis, they would at least seem a lot quicker.

KingsFan7824 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:21 PM
  #23
DAkings20
Kings can't score
 
DAkings20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valencia, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 11,975
vCash: 500
Simmonds slept on DL's couch because he was trying to make the team. Johnson took a pay cut? I'd argue he got what a player like him deserves. JU all you do is repeat the same things, which is getting old. Nobody heard a squeal from you last week when the kings won three in a row. No surprise that you show up again when the kings lose.

DAkings20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:24 PM
  #24
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,387
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Yea let's put some players in perspective here.

O'Sullivan
Tambellini
Boyle
Tukonen
Petiot
Huet
Steckel
Lilja
Yachemenev


it's a mixed bag. Just like EVERY team. Some go on to be good, some just become average, some don't ever do anything.
We're talking about the Murray/Sutter hockey. I don't think most of those names are relevant. O'Sullivan was a 20 goal scorer before Terry got here though.

johnjm22 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-09-2012, 02:26 PM
  #25
Johnny Utah
Registered User
 
Johnny Utah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 6,918
vCash: 500
I have been a Kings fan for over 20 years and I can safely say this is one of my most frustrating.


Last edited by Chazz Reinhold: 03-09-2012 at 03:34 PM. Reason: no talking about infractions
Johnny Utah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.