Why would you keep the architect of the 30th ranked offense in 2011-12 and the 29th ranked 5-on-5 offense for 4 years?
The Sutter hiring sealed his fate for me. He just won't admit that his philosophy doesn't work anymore. Defense only hockey is gone. You need balance.
I would rather watch a team that is 15th in offense and 15th in defense over a team that is 3rd in defense and 30th in offense.
hmmm, good point. the 29th ranked for 4 years?? Really? Wow (and not the good kind either)
ok, I'm not married to him.
I did find it a bit odd that AEG extended him before this season. (2 yrs or is it 3?) 12 playoff games in 5 years seems to be pretty low standard for an extension, but DL did extend Cloutier before he proved anything, so maybe some of that thinking rubbed off on AEG.
So, since we were so used to being a bottom dwelling team, we should now worship the man who has taken us to mediocrity?
I'm not even sure I want Dean fired, but this argument is ridiculous. What exactly are your expectations? If it's to be an elite team with a real chance to win the cup, we're still not there. If you're merely happy seeing 5ish playoff games a year, then that's one thing, but some of us have loftier expectations.
I wasn't arguing a point. I was poking fun at that viewpoint.
The current team is an elite team as far as defense and goaltending go. We are far above "mediocrity" in those areas. Offense is next. That' my lofty expectation. I don't expect something magical to happen like a Disney movie. It's hard work fighting your way to the top tier. Those teams are just going to shift down the bench for us.
I have more patience then most people around here, that's all. I've seen a great deal of progress in rebuilding a franchise that has never really had an identity or any of the other aspects elite clubs have. We are moving in a very good direction. It takes some clubs longer to build because there are lot of variables, and the CBA, along with modern training and system play, has changed the path to a truly top five team.
As far as I'm concerned, Lombardi has done everything he said he would. He's built from the nets, through the d, and up through the center. He's got a solid group of players in those positions. He's built a solid scout and prospect system.
Now it's time to focus on wings / forwards. So, that's what going on. It's called fine tuning. We are on the way. I never expected the Kings to be perennial contenders for the finals five years into a rebuild. So, I don't get as angry as most posters do. I get their frustration. I don't share it. I don't get the whole "blaming Lombardi for everything" logic. And it's time for "rebuild" and "new players" and "new executive staff", now. Especially now, since Sutter has moved us from the mid twenties to the top ten since he's been here.
In terms of changes, this is a very very young organization with very young players. They are laying the groundwork for the future. Hang out and enjoy the ride.
Not so sure this is a "young" organization. Doughty is young. Quick, Richards, Kopitar, Brown and JMFJ are all in their primes, and the Kings are 30th in goal scoring. The Monarchs are ripe with absolutely nothing in forward depth outside of Kozun. Their biggest strength is goaltending, and the Kings already have one they're trying to trade because he might be too good. If it wasn't for Quick, the Kings would be in the Fail for Nail camp.
I wasn't arguing a point. I was poking fun at that viewpoint.
The current team is an elite team as far as defense and goaltending go. We are far above "mediocrity" in those areas. Offense is next. That' my lofty expectation. I don't expect something magical to happen like a Disney movie. It's hard work fighting your way to the top tier. Those teams are just going to shift down the bench for us.
I have more patience then most people around here, that's all. I've seen a great deal of progress in rebuilding a franchise that has never really had an identity or any of the other aspects elite clubs have. We are moving in a very good direction. It takes some clubs longer to build because there are lot of variables, and the CBA, along with modern training and system play, has changed the path to a truly top five team.
As far as I'm concerned, Lombardi has done everything he said he would. He's built from the nets, through the d, and up through the center. He's got a solid group of players in those positions. He's built a solid scout and prospect system.
Now it's time to focus on wings / forwards. So, that's what going on. It's called fine tuning. We are on the way. I never expected the Kings to be perennial contenders for the finals five years into a rebuild. So, I don't get as angry as most posters do. I get their frustration. I don't share it. I don't get the whole "blaming Lombardi for everything" logic. And it's time for "rebuild" and "new players" and "new executive staff", now. Especially now, since Sutter has moved us from the mid twenties to the top ten since he's been here.
In terms of changes, this is a very very young organization with very young players. They are laying the groundwork for the future. Hang out and enjoy the ride.
Not so sure this is a "young" organization. Doughty is young. Quick, Richards, Kopitar, Brown and JMFJ are all in their primes, and the Kings are 30th in goal scoring. The Monarchs are ripe with absolutely nothing in forward depth outside of Kozun. Their biggest strength is goaltending, and the Kings already have one they're trying to trade because he might be too good. If it wasn't for Quick, the Kings would be in the Fail for Nail camp.
They are young in the sense of just coming into their prime. The next five years will be their prime. So, yes, imho, they are a young team. The next five to seven years will be the most important ever for the continued development of this heretofore godforsaken franchise. That's when these kids - now, in their prime - will put their stamp on team culture. That's when the next group of prospects will learn "Kings Hockey". I know we've only seen flashes of "Kings Hockey". We are just now seeing some consistency in that.
But, if you believe that Voynov, Martinez, Johnson, Doughty, Forbert, Deslauriers, Muzzin and Hickey don't count as solid defensive prospects in a system that hasn't had anyone fighting for a D position for the last 15 years then no one can help your vision. I don't share that viewpoint. The facts certainly don't support that view.
And, as I posted, offense is next. We have some really good chips in Toffoli, Schumacher, Kitsyn, Nolan, and Kozan. And we have a couple or three years to add some more offensive prospects while the D work through the system.
Of course the other way to build a team is the Edmonton model. Nothing BUT flash forwards and speed. I'd rather add offense to a very solid defense and goaltending core than try to build a defensive structure on the fly while trying to get into the playoffs.
The Kings are getting very comfortable playing ties and one goal games - that pretty much defines playoff hockey.
They are young in the sense of just coming into their prime. The next five years will be their prime. So, yes, inho, they are a young team. The next five to seven years will be the most important ever for the continued development of this here-to-fore godforsaken franchise. That's when these kids - now, in their prime - will put their stamp on team culture. That's when the next group of prospects will learn "Kings Hockey". I know we've only seen flashes of "Kings Hockey". We are just now seeing some consistency in that.
But, if you believe that Voynov, Martinez, Johnson, Doughty, Forbert, Deslauriers, Muzzin and Hickey don't count as solid defensive prospects in a system that hasn't had anyone fighting for a D position for the last 15 years then no one can help your vision. I don't share that viewpoint. The facts certainly don't support that view.
And, as I posted, offense is next. We have some really good chips in Toffoli, Schumacher, Kitsyn, Nolan, and Kozan. And we have a couple or three years to add some more offensive prospects while the D work through the system.
As I say, I see a lot of progress.
say what you will, without Quick this team would be battling Anaheim for 13th in the conference. No one else on this team has played well enough to earn any accolades (except for Mitchell).
Kings are the exact opposite of Edmonton....they have not one core D man except Ryan Whitney, who they traded for. Sutton was from a trade, Peckham is from within, but is more a #5/#6 guy, Potter is a UFA signee, Smid is from the Pronger deal, but he is more of a #4/5 guy as well. Gilbert the same....BUT, they are loaded up front with RNH, Hall, Eberle, Gagner, Paajarvi, etc....The Bulin wall is 38 years old.
If you combined the Kings D and goaltending with the Oilers forwards, you would make.....the Oilers of old!
They are young in the sense of just coming into their prime. The next five years will be their prime. So, yes, imho, they are a young team. The next five to seven years will be the most important ever for the continued development of this heretofore godforsaken franchise. That's when these kids - now, in their prime - will put their stamp on team culture. That's when the next group of prospects will learn "Kings Hockey". I know we've only seen flashes of "Kings Hockey". We are just now seeing some consistency in that.
But, if you believe that Voynov, Martinez, Johnson, Doughty, Forbert, Deslauriers, Muzzin and Hickey don't count as solid defensive prospects in a system that hasn't had anyone fighting for a D position for the last 15 years then no one can help your vision. I don't share that viewpoint. The facts certainly don't support that view.
And, as I posted, offense is next. We have some really good chips in Toffoli, Schumacher, Kitsyn, Nolan, and Kozan. And we have a couple or three years to add some more offensive prospects while the D work through the system.
Kings are the exact opposite of Edmonton....they have not one core D man except Ryan Whitney, who they traded for. Sutton was from a trade, Peckham is from within, but is more a #5/#6 guy, Potter is a UFA signee, Smid is from the Pronger deal, but he is more of a #4/5 guy as well. Gilbert the same....BUT, they are loaded up front with RNH, Hall, Eberle, Gagner, Paajarvi, etc....The Bulin wall is 38 years old.
If you combined the Kings D and goaltending with the Oilers forwards, you would make.....the Oilers of old!
What production did the Sedins, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kesler, Keith, ... have when they were at the ages around 22-25? Sure doesn't seem stagnating.
It is my humble opinion that you cannot necessarily compare just because they are of similar ages. There are other variables you have to consider.
For example, Zettleberg started his NHL career at 24 years of age... Datsyuk at 22... Sedins at 21 years of age... Kesler at 20. Kopi at 19... and Brown at 20 years of age. So I think that is very subjective.
You are saying that the Kings are essentially in their prime now, guys like Brown, Johnson, Kopitar, etc, which except for Brown, is false.
His point was to say, hey look, these guys got better with age, not comparing Brown directly to them ffs.
The window for the Kings is wide freaking open and people are acting like they are going into retirement ffs.
I understood his point - just didn't agree with it.
Not every player continues to improve with age. Most players plateau at a certain level and (with luck and lack of injury) maintain that level through their "prime" years.
I haven't seen anything in Brown's play the last 2 seasons to indicate that there is untapped potential there. If anything, I think that he has regressed a bit.
Kopitar seems to have traded his offensive creativity for defense. It would definitely be an improvement if he could rediscover that creativity AND maintain the defense, but that doesn't seem likely based on the last few seasons. Did the big contract make him too comfortable?
IMO, Johnson's talent potential level for most of you is still based on the pre-NHL "JMFJ" hype that wasn't realistic. He was supposed to be a beast who could control games withe decent defense and deadly scoring. In reality, he's a serviceable player with occasional highlights.
I didn't see Richards play much before he came to the Kings, so I don't have much to compare other than stats. From what I have been able to see, his performance this season is comparable to the last few seasons - that indicates to me that this is his prime and that he isn't likely to suddenly explode.
... and honestly, how much better could Quick play than he has for the last 2 seasons? This is his prime.
Can anyone realistically say that Doughty has improved from his Norris nominated season? The carefree element of his game that allowed him to be so effective is gone and has been replaced by occasional surliness and ill-timed retaliations.
This forum values potential more than almost anything. IMO, these players are about as good as they are likely to get - they have reached their potential. The big question is whether that is enough to take this team to the next few levels.
I understood his point - just didn't agree with it.
Not every player continues to improve with age. Most players plateau at a certain level and (with luck and lack of injury) maintain that level through their "prime" years.
I haven't seen anything in Brown's play the last 2 seasons to indicate that there is untapped potential there. If anything, I think that he has regressed a bit.
Kopitar seems to have traded his offensive creativity for defense. It would definitely be an improvement if he could rediscover that creativity AND maintain the defense, but that doesn't seem likely based on the last few seasons. Did the big contract make him too comfortable?
IMO, Johnson's talent potential level for most of you is still based on the pre-NHL "JMFJ" hype that wasn't realistic. He was supposed to be a beast who could control games withe decent defense and deadly scoring. In reality, he's a serviceable player with occasional highlights.
I didn't see Richards play much before he came to the Kings, so I don't have much to compare other than stats. From what I have been able to see, his performance this season is comparable to the last few seasons - that indicates to me that this is his prime and that he isn't likely to suddenly explode.
... and honestly, how much better could Quick play than he has for the last 2 seasons? This is his prime.
Can anyone realistically say that Doughty has improved from his Norris nominated season? The carefree element of his game that allowed him to be so effective is gone and has been replaced by occasional surliness and ill-timed retaliations.
This forum values potential more than almost anything. IMO, these players are about as good as they are likely to get - they have reached their potential. The big question is whether that is enough to take this team to the next few levels.
It sure doesn't seem like it to me....
I can agree with you on Brown, but again, I didn't see anyone comparing him to the elite players, Brown is what he is.
Kopitar, hasn't traded offense for defense, he excels at both and he does have lapses, but that's something that he will either mature out of or won't.
Johnson, sorry, he has taken over games, and he has shown to be a #1-#2 Dman, and can be on most teams in the league. I put almost nothing into his +/- stat, it's one of the most useless stats in the league.
Again though, the window on the Kings isn't closing this year, or next, or even the year after, the window is open for the next 10 years imo, as long as Quick, Kopitar, and Doughty are on the team, those are probably THE core players that will stay, everyone else can be traded, leave as a UFA etc, those 3, are the makeup of the team in my opinion.
I can agree with you on Brown, but again, I didn't see anyone comparing him to the elite players, Brown is what he is.
Kopitar, hasn't traded offense for defense, he excels at both and he does have lapses, but that's something that he will either mature out of or won't.
Johnson, sorry, he has taken over games, and he has shown to be a #1-#2 Dman, and can be on most teams in the league. I put almost nothing into his +/- stat, it's one of the most useless stats in the league.
Again though, the window on the Kings isn't closing this year, or next, or even the year after, the window is open for the next 10 years imo, as long as Quick, Kopitar, and Doughty are on the team, those are probably THE core players that will stay, everyone else can be traded, leave as a UFA etc, those 3, are the makeup of the team in my opinion.
Unfortunately for you, PSP hit the nail on the head. I'm happy to see that fewer and fewer fans are accepting this mess of a team. Kopitar is playing nothing like a $7.8mm player. The best you can say about Johnson is that he is even since Jan 1st (and you are insane to ignore plus/minus - over a long period of time it is a VERY meaningful stat). Doughty has real maturity issues that he will need to grow out of.
The unfortunate reality is that this team has a VERY small core of players, huge holes to fill, and almost no cap space to upgrade talent. Worse still, they will be drafting in the 14-20 range for the foreseeable future (black hole range if you will). That means no immediate help from the draft. Throw in the fear that the Richards trade could be a franchise killer and you have what looks like a very dicey future.
Unfortunately for you, PSP hit the nail on the head. I'm happy to see that fewer and fewer fans are accepting this mess of a team. Kopitar is playing nothing like a $7.8mm player. The best you can say about Johnson is that he is even since Jan 1st (and you are insane to ignore plus/minus - over a long period of time it is a VERY meaningful stat). Doughty has real maturity issues that he will need to grow out of.
The unfortunate reality is that this team has a VERY small core of players, huge holes to fill, and almost no cap space to upgrade talent. Worse still, they will be drafting in the 14-20 range for the foreseeable future (black hole range if you will). That means no immediate help from the draft. Throw in the fear that the Richards trade could be a franchise killer and you have what looks like a very dicey future.
Agreed on Doughty, once he matures, he will become the player LA needs him to be.
I ignore the +/- stat on everyone, it's a meaningless stat, the only thing it proves is that your skate blade was on the ice when a goal was scored be it for your team or the other team, it does not tell you how you directly affected the play, it's a BS stat that means nothing.
As far as core players, look at it, one at each position, Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, that is what you build around,
In net, they have Bernier, Zatkoff, Jones, Gibson, solid mix.
On the blueline, they have Doughty, and built around him with Johnson, Scuderi, Greene, Mitchell, Voynov, Martinez, Muzzin, Hickey, Deslauriers, Cambpell, Drewiske, etc, they all have their roles, and while not all the prospects will make it as a King, it's again, a very solid mix.
Up front, you have Kopitar and Richards, and then you build around that, Brown is one part, Williams is another, Lotkionov is a great building block, etc,
The future isn't as bleak as you think it is, but nothing will EVER convince you of that, I am pretty sure you haven't said anything positive about this team since Janecyk was in net.
The future isn't as bleak as you think it is, but nothing will EVER convince you of that, I am pretty sure you haven't said anything positive about this team since Janecyk was in net.
The future looks average to me...this team is miles away from the perennial SC contender that Lombardi envisioned. Their record this year (.500 in regulation and below .500 counting OT and SO) is very indicative of their talent level. Take away 10-12 points that Quick earned on his own and you have a team battling Edmonton and Anaheim for 13/14 in the conference.
Those are facts...spin them positively any way you want.
The future looks average to me...this team is miles away from the perennial SC contender that Lombardi envisioned. Their record this year (.500 in regulation and below .500 counting OT and SO) is very indicative of their talent level. Take away 10-12 points that Quick earned on his own and you have a team battling Edmonton and Anaheim for 13/14 in the conference.
Those are facts...spin them positively any way you want.
LOL yes, because Quick isn't part of the team...no really...we should take away all the points the Kings have gotten in games that Quick has played...k?
Tell me this....which other team has a future like this?
Dustin Brown - 26 years old
Anze Kopitar - 24 years old
Mike Richards - 26 years old
Justin Williams - 29 years old
Kyle Clifford - 20 years old
Trevor Lewis - 24 years old
Andrei Lotkionov - 21 years old
Brad Richardson - 26 years old
Drew Doughty - 21 years old
Jack Johnson - 24 years old
Viaschlev Voynov - 21 years old
Alec Martinez - 24 years old
Matt Greene - 28 years old
Jonathan Quick - 25 years old
Jonathan Bernier - 23 years old
All of them are on the major league roster, (exception of Voynov being temporarily sent down) all of them have a long window, and Lotkionov, Voynov, Martinez, Lewis, Kopitar, Bernier, all have room to develop better..
This isn't taking into account what you have in the minors/juniors/etc.
