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Is it good idea to draft over ager??

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Old
11-11-2004, 02:08 PM
  #1
Habs4ever
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Is it good idea to draft over ager??

we saw quiet a many over ager drafted last draft, but is it a good idea considering those players already make much better salary then AHL especially in Russia, and its hard to claim NHL roster for those over agers when team has so much depth and so many prospects are already waiting in the wing ready to make pro.

for example goaltender Vadim Tarasov, over ager drafted in 1999 who was dominating Russian league setting all kind of records, but went back to russia after one AHL season, knowing he makes much better salary in russia its an obvious choice if he doesn't become starting goalie for montreal which was the case at the time.

And does potential play when drafting European, as its unlikely that players would want to come here if they were nothing more then third liner depth guys as they make similar money playing in their country, its only top six forwards who make top dollars.

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11-11-2004, 04:06 PM
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It just depends on which overager. The scouts don't draft any player unless they feel that player might be able to help our team. I don't have a problem, generally speaking, with drafting overagers. I'm not personally keen on drafting a guy like Streit in the last draft, but sometimes, if you find the right guy, it can work out pretty well.

Technically, Markov and Locke were overagers, weren't they? Grabovsky is another. Personally, the younger the better, in my books, and I would have to really be impressed to draft somebody over 24, but you can never say never or close your mind to any situation in scouting for players to help your team.

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11-11-2004, 04:16 PM
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Blind Gardien..you are from Iraq?

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11-11-2004, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Blind Gardien..you are from Iraq?
You forgot Poland !

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Old
11-11-2004, 04:23 PM
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Yes, depends on the age and draft spot.

A good gamble would be a guy that's in his early 20's, a bad gamble would be someone like Mark Streit. I can't see what the gang over in Montreal were thinking.

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11-11-2004, 04:27 PM
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Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Blind Gardien..you are from Iraq?
No, I'm from Canada.

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11-11-2004, 04:37 PM
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Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
It just depends on which overager. The scouts don't draft any player unless they feel that player might be able to help our team. I don't have a problem, generally speaking, with drafting overagers. I'm not personally keen on drafting a guy like Streit in the last draft, but sometimes, if you find the right guy, it can work out pretty well.

Technically, Markov and Locke were overagers, weren't they? Grabovsky is another. Personally, the younger the better, in my books, and I would have to really be impressed to draft somebody over 24, but you can never say never or close your mind to any situation in scouting for players to help your team.
Technically, yes. Markov was 20 I think. But I usually lump players up to 20 years old as "normal drafted prospects".

I think whoever you draft it is always wsomewhat of a crapshoot. Concerning overagers, the difference is in the *kind* of risks you are taking. These players are usually suited to thin teams with depth problems and an awesome organization that knows how to use them.

Philly is an excellent hockey organization but usually their overagers tend to bomb on them. You need to handle them with care and make them believe this will be beneficial for them. Several overagers have a rather nice upside.

The problem right now is that more teams are using the overager strategy so there are less gems to find now. Also, scouting has improved and talented Euros falling through the cracks may become a little more difficult to find.

If you don't think an overager will play for your NHL team in the next two seasons, I say don't draft him. It's a waste of a draft pick. That's why I did not like the Streit pick. Doesn't seem like there is room for him.

This was a bad year to pick an overager, IMO. Unless the guy was really special. Several rules may change in the next CBA and plenty of proven "overager NHLers" may be free agents when this league resumes its activities. Not to mention the new rules may impact every organization in other ways.

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11-11-2004, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
If you don't think an overager will play for your NHL team in the next two seasons, I say don't draft him. It's a waste of a draft pick. That's why I did not like the Streit pick. Doesn't seem like there is room for him.

This was a bad year to pick an overager, IMO. Unless the guy was really special. Several rules may change in the next CBA and plenty of proven "overager NHLers" may be free agents when this league resumes its activities. Not to mention the new rules may impact every organization in other ways.
That's a perfect way to look at it. Back when we drafted Ujcik, we were pretty much an expansion team, and at that point if we thought Ujcik could come over and fill a spot, I suppose it wouldn't have been the end of the world. So if Streit had been picked about 5 years ago, it would have been similarly more understandable. But I would emphasise that you really have to have spoken to these guys, get a sense of their inclination towards coming over, otherwise forget about it.

Right now, we have ample young prospects, a well-stocked roster, and the prospect of easily filling any openings through post-lockout free agency. So picking any older European player is a sheer waste of a pick, IMO.

When you look at some of the overage Europeans picked last year... Pesonen, Bjurling, Fukufuji, Niskala, Franzen, Streit... I don't think any of them stood out as players I would personally have considered taking. Even given an opening at forward like Detroit predicts, or the possibilities of short-term goalie problems that Edmonton might have imagined, it just wouldn't have interested me relative to the calibre of 18-20 year old players available. Detroit could sign any plugger as a free agent 4th liner, no need to waste a 3rd round draft pick on Franzen when there were tons of good looking kids still available. At least we waited until the 9th round, but it still will be a wasted pick IMHO.

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11-11-2004, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Yes, depends on the age and draft spot.

A good gamble would be a guy that's in his early 20's, a bad gamble would be someone like Mark Streit. I can't see what the gang over in Montreal were thinking.
Oh please. You didn't even see him play and you start the bashing

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11-11-2004, 05:43 PM
  #10
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Vadim Tarasov could have been a steal. He tried N.A. but was always injured. Theodore was getting good, so was Garon... so, Tarasov lost his chance and that's why he went back to Russia.

Without his serious injuries, I think Tarasov would be a decent goalie in the NHL right now.

So, I don't see a problem with drafting overagers. Remember Jarret Stoll, Matthew Lombardi and Tim Brent (although he hasn't proven his second selection yet)

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Old
11-11-2004, 06:23 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy
Oh please. You didn't even see him play and you start the bashing
I'm not bashing him, but age is a major concern with Streit, the guy is almost 27 years old. As a Habs fan, wouldn't you rather have taken a chance on an 18 year old with potential rather than a 26 year old player that has tapped out on his potential and isn't even a top player in his league?

For example, the Leafs took Roman Kukumberg at #113, he's a guy that's been a really good player in Slovakia and is producing at a higher level in Russia. At the age of 24 (1980), he still has some potential, but 27 is a little too old, wouldn't you say?

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11-11-2004, 07:10 PM
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He's not a top-notch players on the league, but he's leading his team in goal scoring (tie with Robitaille) and he's a defenseman. Look at Markus Naslund, when did he reach his potential? Around 27-28 years old.

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11-11-2004, 07:30 PM
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Daniel Alfredsson was drafted when he was 21

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11-12-2004, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy
He's not a top-notch players on the league, but he's leading his team in goal scoring (tie with Robitaille) and he's a defenseman. Look at Markus Naslund, when did he reach his potential? Around 27-28 years old.
Most players reach their potential at that age, but that doesn't mean you can go out and draft a 26 year old player in the later stages of a draft when there are many 18, 19, 20 year old kids available... and then consider it a quality pick.

I think if you're taking anyone over 25, they'd better be ready to make an immediate impact within 1 season, otherwise it's a waste of a pick... but it's still only a 9th, so... meh.

Anyways, yes... taking an overage player is not a bad idea.

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11-12-2004, 08:12 AM
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One benefit of drafting a euro over ager that hasn't been discussed is the fact you get a player who is much closer to NHL ready than a 19-20 year old (that would still be available at the same pick), you don't have to sign him to a contract to continue to hold his NHL rights, so in a way it's like having an AHL'er who if ever gets to the point where he wants/and as a team you feel he can help your team, you can bring him over and pop him into the lineup a more polished prospect than a 19-20 year old.

As for Streit my thinking is.....in another year or two our defensive corps could be very very thin. With Brisebois and maybe Rivet gone we could be in a situation where we have only 4 or 5 true NHL dman...and with Hainsey not developing like hoped, and no other real top NHL defensive prospect, we might want to have Streit as an option.

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Old
11-12-2004, 02:35 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Most players reach their potential at that age, but that doesn't mean you can go out and draft a 26 year old player in the later stages of a draft when there are many 18, 19, 20 year old kids available... and then consider it a quality pick.
What is your chance to draft a player that will make an impact in the later rounds? Not many chances. We also know that we don't really have many offensive defenseman in our system. Mike Komisarek is a sure bet, but Hainsey isn't. Besides them, there's not many OD, we just have DD.

So by drafting Mark Streit, we already know that he can scores against men, and not kid like those 18-19-20 years old kids. When Brisebois and Rivet will leave the team, we must give their spots to other people. So if the younger one haven't develop to a point to make the team, Mark Streit could be useful.

He could also be useful with the Hamilton Bulldogs. So yes, I think that Mark Streit was a good pick.

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11-12-2004, 03:49 PM
  #17
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but would he want to sign AHL contract??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy
What is your chance to draft a player that will make an impact in the later rounds? Not many chances. We also know that we don't really have many offensive defenseman in our system. Mike Komisarek is a sure bet, but Hainsey isn't. Besides them, there's not many OD, we just have DD.

So by drafting Mark Streit, we already know that he can scores against men, and not kid like those 18-19-20 years old kids. When Brisebois and Rivet will leave the team, we must give their spots to other people. So if the younger one haven't develop to a point to make the team, Mark Streit could be useful.

He could also be useful with the Hamilton Bulldogs. So yes, I think that Mark Streit was a good pick.

He probably makes descent money back in his country, why would he sign to play for minor league team. If he's coming over to north america, then it will be for NHL contract not the cheap money they pay in AHL.

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11-12-2004, 03:52 PM
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I don't know if Streit is good enough to play in the NHL, but there could be many reason for his drafting.

...He looks like an outstanding offensive quaterback in his league (for what it's worth) where all the players are grown men. We don't have any d-man of that kind in the organization and we are real thin in the D department. If Hainsey doesn't live up to the expectencies and say Souray get injured, Streit could be ready to play on the PP by midseason. I don't know...

...and is there a possibility that the habs draft him just in case the NHL have to hire scabs at the start of next year? He's maybe the type of player who will come here to play, just to know what it's like. Just a though...

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11-12-2004, 04:57 PM
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Well, in my books, Mark Streit is one of the best, if not the best Swiss d-man. He's on Team Switzerland, who has established as the 8th nation in the hockey world during the last years (forget Germany, they were chosen in the World Cup because of Strum, Hecht or Goc, but Switzerland has a much better overall team).

Aebischer may be the lone star in team Switzerland, but the rest of the pack plays well too... Unlike France and Huet...

Si, I agree that Streit might be useful a day, considering that our defense corps is thiner than our forwards corps for the coming years.
Streit has much international experience (a bit more than Ujcik I'll say), and is clearly better known than the Pesonen, Bjurling, Fukufuji, Niskala, Franzen Blind Gardien mentioned.

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