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Cleary to have knee drained again

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Old
03-11-2012, 03:05 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Konnan511 View Post
I admire his passion and commitment to the team, but he needs to take a rest until 100%. He's only hurting himself and the team at the moment. A 90% Cleary is a good Cleary, but he is no where near that right now.
Current Cleary on a healthy Wings lineup is okay. He's not making a fool of himself on a 3rd or 4th line, getting minutes thereafter. He just can't handle the role he plays right now. He should be playing less than normally but is playing more instead..

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03-11-2012, 06:16 PM
  #27
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I thought Cleary looked way better against Nashville than he did against the Kings where he was completely inept.

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Old
03-11-2012, 07:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by angularcrayon19 View Post
I thought Cleary looked way better against Nashville than he did against the Kings where he was completely inept.
I think it really varies on how bad the cyst is really bugging him...

Some nights he looks brutal, other nights he looks healthy... it's just so flip floppy...

Like I said earlier in the thread...

If he knew about this, he really should have done the proper treatment from the start instead of waiting til this late into the season/ end of season

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Old
03-12-2012, 12:01 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
So the team, already missing some top six forwards would be better off still to take another vet off the ice and put in a total greenhorn?

I think Cleary is suffering through it for the very reason that there are several injuries. Like he always does.
On many nights, even recently, Cleary is the worst player on the ice.

There was this one moment the other night where he had the puck skating sooooo slowly near our bench. Some guy just zoomed up beside him and took it. Cleary's turn was so slow I couldn't believe it. He may have been near the end of the shift. But still.

So yeah. Call up Tatar and play him instead of Cleary. I don't think it would have hurt the team one little bit.

Every once in awhile, Cleary has a spell where he looks like the best of Dan Cleary.

He's been hurt all year, even going back to the pre-season. Is this a problem that surgery can't help? If surgery can help, why wasn't it done a long time ago?

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03-12-2012, 03:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
He's been hurt all year, even going back to the pre-season. Is this a problem that surgery can't help? If surgery can help, why wasn't it done a long time ago?
Don't know, but it seems like he's used the "it'll be fixed in the offseason" excuse for the past few years.

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03-12-2012, 10:00 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by kuick View Post
Don't know, but it seems like he's used the "it'll be fixed in the offseason" excuse for the past few years.

What?

Surgery is something that's indicated by medical personnel, and whether or not it can be put off.

Where else has Cleary said "it'll be fixed in the off season" and more importantly as an excuse for anything?

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Old
03-12-2012, 10:02 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
On many nights, even recently, Cleary is the worst player on the ice.

There was this one moment the other night where he had the puck skating sooooo slowly near our bench. Some guy just zoomed up beside him and took it. Cleary's turn was so slow I couldn't believe it. He may have been near the end of the shift. But still.

So yeah. Call up Tatar and play him instead of Cleary. I don't think it would have hurt the team one little bit.

Every once in awhile, Cleary has a spell where he looks like the best of Dan Cleary.

He's been hurt all year, even going back to the pre-season. Is this a problem that surgery can't help? If surgery can help, why wasn't it done a long time ago?

I know our fans want to think that every defenseman can be as good as Lidstrom, and that every forward is the next Dats or Z. The reality for me at least is that this team would be far worse off right now if they hadn't traded for Q and/or benched Cleary so a rookie could come up and play top six for 2+ months-- or more.

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Old
03-12-2012, 10:10 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know our fans want to think that every defenseman can be as good as Lidstrom, and that every forward is the next Dats or Z. The reality for me at least is that this team would be far worse off right now if they hadn't traded for Q and/or benched Cleary so a rookie could come up and play top six for 2+ months-- or more.
Enh. Aside from your initial bout of hyperbole and inaccuracy you're presenting something of a false choice there, obviously.

I don't think the issue is 'Gee, would the team be any better with Cleary or with Nyqvist' (although... ). I think the issue is 'Good God, for 2.8 mil a year Cleary isn't really getting it done, and on top of not getting it done he's missing a bunch of time.'

That tends to rub you the wrong way given the lengths you're tried to go to make a case Dan Cleary is actually worth 2.8 mil a year, but there you go.

Hey, I was wrong about Cleary, too. I thought he'd be better, too. It happens.

That aside, the simple fact right now is that the dude's a barely-adequate third line plug forward and I wouldn't shed one single tear if the team waived him in the offseason or dumped him for a bag of pucks because I would much rather have the 2.8 back than Dan Cleary.

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03-12-2012, 03:13 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know our fans want to think that every defenseman can be as good as Lidstrom, and that every forward is the next Dats or Z. The reality for me at least is that this team would be far worse off right now if they hadn't traded for Q and/or benched Cleary so a rookie could come up and play top six for 2+ months-- or more.
How much has Quincey helped? What's our record with Q in the lineup?

I was with you on the idea that we never should have let Q go for nothing. But this trade, with Q's salary, with the first round pick, with Kindl and Smith ready to step up, with the actual makeup of our defense... wasn't a good trade. You view this as vindication... I didn't kneed to spend a first round pick to know I was right.

How much has Cleary really helped? He was talking about this injury in the first week of the season. Wouldn't it have been better to sit him out for surgery in October and have him ready in February than watch him degrade into Holmstrom 2.0 just in time for the playoffs?

How about you reply to me instead "I know Red Wings fans" yada yada yada

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Old
03-12-2012, 03:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Enh. Aside from your initial bout of hyperbole and inaccuracy you're presenting something of a false choice there, obviously.

I don't think the issue is 'Gee, would the team be any better with Cleary or with Nyqvist' (although... ). I think the issue is 'Good God, for 2.8 mil a year Cleary isn't really getting it done, and on top of not getting it done he's missing a bunch of time.'

That tends to rub you the wrong way given the lengths you're tried to go to make a case Dan Cleary is actually worth 2.8 mil a year, but there you go.

Hey, I was wrong about Cleary, too. I thought he'd be better, too. It happens.

That aside, the simple fact right now is that the dude's a barely-adequate third line plug forward and I wouldn't shed one single tear if the team waived him in the offseason or dumped him for a bag of pucks because I would much rather have the 2.8 back than Dan Cleary.
I was a big critic of Cleary's contract when it was signed. But a healthy Cleary is worth it. Problem is, he's not healthy much anymore.

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Old
03-12-2012, 03:34 PM
  #36
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thank god this warrior is toughing it out this season and bringing...


...uh...


...exactly what is it that he brings to the table, now?

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Old
03-12-2012, 04:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
How much has Quincey helped? What's our record with Q in the lineup?

I was with you on the idea that we never should have let Q go for nothing. But this trade, with Q's salary, with the first round pick, with Kindl and Smith ready to step up, with the actual makeup of our defense... wasn't a good trade. You view this as vindication... I didn't kneed to spend a first round pick to know I was right.

How much has Cleary really helped? He was talking about this injury in the first week of the season. Wouldn't it have been better to sit him out for surgery in October and have him ready in February than watch him degrade into Holmstrom 2.0 just in time for the playoffs?

**How about you reply to me instead "I know Red Wings fans" yada yada yada
* Q got here just as the injuries mounted. Do you think this metric is really a fair measure?


**It applies to Red Wings fans' commentary in this thread, not necessarily you.

Here's the thing. Who else could they get? I don't believe Kindl is anywhere close to being ready. Had they not farted around in September and put Smith on the team instead of farting around with Commie or Kindl, he may have been that missing piece on the bottom pairing. However that is still only 6 NHL-ready defenders:

Lids, Kron, Stu, White, E, Smith... and Kindl as your 7th.

Do you think Kindl is ready to hold a spot on the Wings? Full-time, at 16-18 min/gm?

If yes, then sure, the brass did not need to acquire Quincey or anyone for that matter. There weren't any better deals to be made in terms of superior D for fewer assets. If you did make any trade, that still pushes Kindl and possibly Smith out, absent any injuries.

Why would they do it then? Well, KH said 'insurance' because we know Stuart is leaving. Maybe he took a look at the UFA situation, considered that he had to pay E $3.25 MM to be a 5th D, and didn't think $3.1 MM for Q was bad (even if he and E are interchangeable).

Was E not deemed ready to be Stu's replacement, or did they just want to have Q around in case E wasn't ready? One of the two must assume that role. Let's say they didn't trade for Q, and E is your #4 next year, that leaves Kindl and Smith as your bottom pair. Well Smitty didn't get much time until now, and has Kindl shown that he could hold down a third pair spot for an entire season?


As for Cleary, yes, a healthy one is worth the money. 26 goals last year when he wasn't fully healthy anyway. I am not nowhere close to convinced that Nyquist could have walked in this year and been at all effective. I'm not sure he's going to be ready for the entire season next year either. Tatar? Not yet. Who then?

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Old
03-12-2012, 04:33 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
How much has Cleary really helped? He was talking about this injury in the first week of the season. Wouldn't it have been better to sit him out for surgery in October and have him ready in February than watch him degrade into Holmstrom 2.0 just in time for the playoffs?
Cleary's preseason injury was cracked ribs. The knee issue is completely different, so having surgery in October wasn't an option.

Regardless, Cleary is ALWAYS hurt.
02/08 - 19 games broken jaw
11/08 - 8 games eye injury
12/09 - 12 games seperated shoulder
2010 Playoffs - Knee was injured. Didn't miss any games but couldn't walk up or down stairs and need offseason surgery
12/10 - 14 games broken ankle
And this year he cracked his ribs in preseason and now has a knee injury that has forced him out of 5 games and possibly more.
Unfortunately, Cleary has been healthy one season (last year) out of the 5. And it seems even if he is not missing games, he's being slowed by the injuries.

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Old
03-12-2012, 05:53 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by lilja4mvp View Post
thank god this warrior is toughing it out this season and bringing...


...uh...


...exactly what is it that he brings to the table, now?
30 points while playing defense is exactly what he has brought. That ranks him #166 in points among forwards, which makes him a #5.53 forward league-wide this season based on production.


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03-12-2012, 07:32 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
How much has Quincey helped? What's our record with Q in the lineup?

I was with you on the idea that we never should have let Q go for nothing.
They traded him. He failed a physical. You can't trade a guy who can't pass a physical. Ergo, it was impossible for them to get something for him.

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Old
03-12-2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
30 points while playing defense is exactly what he has brought. That ranks him #166 in points among forwards, which makes him a #5.53 forward league-wide this season based on production.

The problem isn't what he does, or what he is paid. The problem is in the relationship between what he does and what he is paid.

If Cleary was signed to be a third line guy to put up 30-35 points a year... that's fine. Unfortunately those kinds of players don't sign for 2.8 mil a year. Conversely, if we're going to sign him for 2.8 mil a year, the standard of performance has to be higher than a third line forward.

Based on what he's doing this year, Cleary's a 1.5ish forward. Maybe.

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Old
03-12-2012, 08:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
As for Cleary, yes, a healthy one is worth the money. 26 goals last year when he wasn't fully healthy anyway.
A) What evidence have you ever had that Cleary was going to be consistently healthy?

B) Why do you mention his 26 goals, yet ignore his 14, 15, and ~15 totals in his other three years? Sure, if a guy hits his career high in goals, and by 6, he'll be worth more.

Cleary's problem in terms of cost value has been that for three out of the four years which have elapsed in his deal, he's performed at a level noticeably short of what he did the two years prior to signing it.

Quote:
I am not nowhere close to convinced that Nyquist could have walked in this year and been at all effective. I'm not sure he's going to be ready for the entire season next year either. Tatar? Not yet. Who then?
First, that's still a false choice because it assumes that the only roster options available are either playing Cleary or playing a rookie. Obviously that's not the case.

Second, what you are saying now doesn't appear to jibe well with previous positions where it seemed like you disagreed with how the Wings brought up youth, electing to retain veterans of what you felt to be diminished abilities rather than 'giving the kids a chance.'

All of that said, I didn't have any particular problem going into this year with the Wings having Cleary up and keeping Nyqvist (among others) down. I had no reason to suspect that his game would slide to the point it has, and while I never thought he merited his contract, neither did I think he'd underperform it by so much that he should just be dumped summarily.

Barring some kind of late renaissance, however, I think it would be silly to keep Cleary on the roster if cap space becomes any kind of issue at all heading into next season. If it's not, then enh. I don't mind. There's always the outside shot that in a contract year he would re-discover relevance.

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Old
03-12-2012, 10:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
30 points while playing defense is exactly what he has brought. That ranks him #166 in points among forwards, which makes him a #5.53 forward league-wide this season based on production.

He's supposed to win the Conn Smythe a la Z in 2008 for him to be worth that money.

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Old
03-13-2012, 07:13 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
He's supposed to win the Conn Smythe a la Z in 2008 for him to be worth that money.


Yep, that's exactly the standard people have held Cleary too, Fugu. You nailed it!

On the plus side, these kind of hyperbolic posts of your vastly increase the enjoyment I will get out of your next 'oh, you just misrepresent and twist things' complaint.

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Old
03-13-2012, 10:24 AM
  #45
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Last word.

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Old
03-13-2012, 12:01 PM
  #46
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Last word.
Wouldn't that be 'last two words?'

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Old
03-13-2012, 03:08 PM
  #47
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Last word.
Fugu passes to Bench...

Dan Cleary's Season


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Old
03-13-2012, 04:31 PM
  #48
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lol

Havent seen that before.

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Old
03-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #49
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Fugu passes to Bench...

Dan Cleary's Season

Love it!
Poor Cleary.

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