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Old
04-30-2012, 07:44 PM
  #751
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Comparing King Henry to Bryz is laughable.

Henry has earned the benefit of the doubt on the occasional crap goal because he steals more games for NY than he loses for them.

Can't say the same for the BUM.

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04-30-2012, 07:51 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Comparing King Henry to Bryz is laughable.

Henry has earned the benefit of the doubt on the occasional crap goal because he steals more games for NY than he loses for them.

Can't say the same for the BUM.
Really? King Henry? that's what you call him? but you crap all over your own goalie. nice

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04-30-2012, 07:55 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Bryz can have an excellent game and lose. Bryz can have an awful game and win. Bryz could play well enough for the team to win and they could be swept.

You said if the team wins, then everyone has done their job. This is patently false because every team has made roster adjustments after they win games, many times because the coach is unhappy with the performance of an individual even though they won the game.

Why do you exempt players from criticism when they win? JVR wasn't 'better' than Rinaldo in his first game back; he clearly wasn't in game shape yet. JVR isn't a loose cannon like Rinaldo, which is where Rinaldo deserves criticism... even though he was in the line up for three of the team's wins in the first series.

The issue I have with your statement 'if the team wins, then everyone has done their job' is that your focus on the game's results over the performances within it. Bryz is the only option; it is highly unlikely that Bobrovsky can lead the team to a championship this year, if he has to. It will be virtually impossible for the team to continue winning if Bryz puts up an 0.873 save percentage every night.
There's a difference between a coach making roster adjustments for future games and me saying that in past games a player has played well enough to win. Looking forward, Bryz may or may not play well enough to win, and the offense may or may not play well enough to win. I am in agreement that if Bryz plays better they will have a better shot at winning moving forward. I don't think I ever said otherwise. But playing better tomorrow does not change the fact that he played well enough to win yesterday (and the previous series).

As far as exempting players form criticism, I don't think I am doing that. I have acknowledged the soft goals Bryz let in and the poor defense. But because they won, by definition, they have played well enough to win. If Bryz lets in six tomorrow and they win, he has played well enough to win. If he let's in two on Thursday and they lose, he has not played well enough to win. It is a team game. You win, you have done your job. You lose, you haven't.

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04-30-2012, 07:55 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
Really? King Henry? that's what you call him? but you crap all over your own goalie. nice
I agree. Its totally nice that we were supposed to get our own version of King Henry, but are stuck yet again wincing at every shot on net.

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04-30-2012, 08:08 PM
  #755
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I'm not really sure what you are driving at here. You put JVR in because he is better. If they keep winning, that means Bryz is playing well enough to win. That is going to change from game to game because some games the offense won't step up. His performance was good enough to win yesterday. It may not be tomorrow.



Ok I think I see what you are saying, but that only buttresses my point, not yours. If all you want to do is pass and get a diploma, regardless of what your GPA is, then yes getting a D- is the same as getting an A. I would absolutely agree with that. Just like if all you want is a W, a bad goalie performance that still results in a W is the same as a legendary shutout. For instance, if you interview for a job and they tell you as long as you pass your last class, you are hired. If you get a D-, it is no different than getting an A. You get the job and you get the diploma. Just like in hockey, the league says, if you get 16 wins in the playoffs, you get the Cup. Winning all those games 10-9 is the same as winning them all 10-0.

Now, if your goal is to make the dean's list but you get a D-, that is not the same as getting the A, and in that situation there is no analogue to hockey because one win always equals one win.
No. Think of it on a high school level, not college. All those D- grades are good enough to get you to pass and graduate, but they won't get you to the next level (college). Just like having a goalie who constantly plays "just good enough" and gets bailed out by the offense isn't going to be winning the Cup almost every time.

I'd also like to point out that even in college, those D- grades aren't good enough to get a diploma at a decent school since most colleges require minimum grades in several core courses, but that's a different matter haha

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04-30-2012, 08:12 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You insist that because it was a breakaway goal it wasn't his fault, but that wasn't the case.
what wasn't the case ?

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04-30-2012, 08:13 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
All those D- grades are good enough to get you to pass and graduate, but they won't get you to the next level (college).
in hockey, any passing grade = graduation to a Win.

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04-30-2012, 08:37 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
what wasn't the case ?
It was the sort of goal an NHL goaltender should stop, especially one of Bryzgalov's supposed caliber, and especially in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
in hockey, any passing grade = graduation to a Win.
Haha, right.

Tell me, how many times has the SC winning team had the inferior goalie? Because right now, Bryz is far and away the worst remaining goalie. If the goalie is being "barely good enough" instead of rock solid, the end result isn't good.

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04-30-2012, 08:44 PM
  #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No. Think of it on a high school level, not college. All those D- grades are good enough to get you to pass and graduate, but they won't get you to the next level (college). Just like having a goalie who constantly plays "just good enough" and gets bailed out by the offense isn't going to be winning the Cup almost every time.
Ok, you are so far entrenched in your opinion that it is clear that you aren't going to even acknowledge that your analogy doesn't work. In hockey the goal is to win. If you win, no matter how you get there, you have won. If they win 16 ugly games, they still get the cup. If you are in high school and get 16 D-'s, that is not the same as getting 16 A's. The two scenarios are completely different. If wins were worth more if you allow fewer goals, or less when you allow more goals, your analogy would be perfect. But that isn't how it works. A D- does not ever equal the same thing as an A, but a win always equals a win.

Quote:
I'd also like to point out that even in college, those D- grades aren't good enough to get a diploma at a decent school since most colleges require minimum grades in several core courses, but that's a different matter haha


You are either missing the point, or ignoring it.

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04-30-2012, 08:48 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It was the sort of goal an NHL goaltender should stop.
maybe. but it was still a turnover, a breakaway & a fake slap shot. considering he was the ONLY Flyer to show up at the start of the game & the ONLY reason they weren't down 5-0 after 1 & was stellar in OT & they won a playoff game, i think you focusing on the one possible negative is pretty funny

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
how many times has the SC winning team had the inferior goalie?
Detroit Osgood
Detroit Vernon
Chicago Niiemi

i'm sure 98.124% of the fans didn't whine after hoisting the CUP

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04-30-2012, 08:50 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok, you are so far entrenched in your opinion that it is clear that you aren't going to even acknowledge that your analogy doesn't work. In hockey the goal is to win. If you win, no matter how you get there, you have won. If they win 16 ugly games, they still get the cup. If you are in high school and get 16 D-'s, that is not the same as getting 16 A's. The two scenarios are completely different. If wins were worth more if you allow fewer goals, or less when you allow more goals, your analogy would be perfect. But that isn't how it works. A D- does not ever equal the same thing as an A, but a win always equals a win.





You are either missing the point, or ignoring it.
Just because you can't comprehend my analogy doesn't make it wrong.

Getting into college is winning the Cup here...getting to that next level. It won't be done with 16 D- efforts from a goalie. I posed this question to BP74, and I pose it to you: How many times has the worst remaining goalie won the Cup?

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04-30-2012, 08:54 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
maybe. but it was still a turnover, a breakaway & a fake slap shot. considering he was the ONLY Flyer to show up at the start of the game & the ONLY reason they weren't down 5-0 after 1 & was stellar in OT & they won a playoff game, i think you focusing on the one possible negative is pretty funny



Detroit Osgood
Detroit Vernon
Chicago Niiemi

i'm sure 98.124% of the fans didn't whine after hoisting the CUP
Niemi was NOT the inferior goalie, Leighton was and as a result the Flyers lost. Osgood generally performed well in the playoffs, and when he didn't Detroit lost. Vernon performed well in 97, putting up 1.76 GAA and fantastic save percentage. They were solid. Bryz has NOT been solid. Unless Bryz tightens up and stops giving the other team free goals, winning a Cup is unlikely.

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04-30-2012, 08:55 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And so has Bryz. If he wasn't playing well enough to win, THEY WOULDN'T WIN. Think about what you are saying. Bryz hasn't been good enough to win, despite the fact that they have won five of their last seven. Last time I checked, if you get a win, by definition you have played well enough to win.
give it up. Beef is in some 'alternate reality'. he can't even admit that he's been good enough to win, when he wins.


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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If a win was worth more if the goalie lets in fewer goals, you would be spot on. However, one win is one win regardless of how the goalie plays.
here's what we need:

2 points for a win
add 1 point for a shutout
add 1 point for no 5-hole goals
add 1 point for no rebound goals
add 1 point for every $2 million your goalie is paid below $51 million

then he'd have a valid point.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Just because you can't comprehend my analogy doesn't make it wrong.
what makes it wrong:

in the NHL, no matter how you win, the result is the same.

in college, there are varying degrees of passing & different results.

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04-30-2012, 08:55 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
in hockey, any passing grade = graduation to a Win.
Beef is not saying that he is unhappy even when we win, and Bryz plays ok.

Let me interpret:

I'm happy when I pull a 6/10 when drunk, but when I wake up in the morning, have a shower, and head home, after a good night, I question myself, on why I did not pull an 8 or a 9, and how on another night, with one more drink, that 6 could have been a 4.



Also, I feel a better comparison that an A to D- grade would be:

It is the last exam of your degree...

You have had an offer from an employer saying if you get a certain grade... say a 70%, overall, they will give you a job.

In the last exam you only need a 50% overall to reach the averaged 70%.

You get 50%... you get the job.

You get 100%... you get the job.

But it is a hell of a lot easier on your nerves when you go in and know you have aced it after the first few questions... than nervously checking your emails for a friggin week hoping you got the grade you need!

And a dodgy marker, or some illegible handwriting can make the difference between a 50% and a 49% if you are riding it so close!

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04-30-2012, 08:57 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
The whole underlying reason for this argument is his contract which i could care less about. If he made that much i wouldn't be as mad but he makes this much so he sucks. the whole argument is ********. Every goalie lets in crap goals. i just watched pekke rinne let in a couple uncomfortable goals last night but i don't blame him. i blame the relentless attack of the coyotes. Were playing the devils in the 2nd round. we didn't lose 7-6. it was 4-3 and the five hole goal is blown way outta proportion. he faked the shot on a breakaway and it trickled through. If Bryzgalov didn't show up ready to rock early, it would've been a loss, so yeah, we won because of him not despite him.
exactly. a few guys here are hell bent on proving he's not worth the contract. so, they nit pick every chance they get ... going as far as saying he was not good enough to win .... after a win



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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But because they won, by definition, they have played well enough to win. If Bryz lets in six tomorrow and they win, he has played well enough to win. If he let's in two on Thursday and they lose, he has not played well enough to win. It is a team game.
give it up. Bryz will get criticized even if he hoists the CUP, by a few here.

to them, trying to justify that the Flyers should have gotten another goalie, or paid Bryz less money over fewer years is the most important thing.

thankfully, the vast majority just want them to win the CUP, no matter how they get it done.

can you imagine Chicago fans being unhappy after 2010 because Niiemi looked shaky at times ?




since you have dropped the issue, i'll assume you know concede that:

A: i do criticize Bryz [even in the regular season when they were winning]
B: i'm not complaining about Danny nor Bryz in the playoffs because we are winning [same standard]

as I said, i'd rather he had gotten all 3 goals, but unlike you, i'm not gonna whine about #3 because it WAS a turnover, a breakaway & a fake slap shot & he was the ONLY Flyer to show up @ 3:20 pm, the ONLY reason they were in the game after the 1st period & was stellar in OT & they WON the game.

same standard as I apply to Briere: both have had good & bad things in the playoffs, but they won & i'm not reaming eiither of them out.

[at least to 98.124% of us here], it makes no sense to ream anyone out when the team wins a playoff game. especyially when that player was the ONLY Flyer to show up @ 3:20 pm, the ONLY reason they were in the game after the 1st period & was stellar in OT

but, hey, we know you're in the minority & things just wouldn't seem like we were in Philly if the goalie wasn't getting bashed .... even after a playoff win

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04-30-2012, 08:58 PM
  #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Just because you can't comprehend my analogy doesn't make it wrong.

Getting into college is winning the Cup here...getting to that next level. It won't be done with 16 D- efforts from a goalie. I posed this question to BP74, and I pose it to you: How many times has the worst remaining goalie won the Cup?
Ok well the reason I am not following your analogy is because it is not applicable to what I was talking about. You have changed it into something else. I never said that Bryz continuing to put up similar stats will lead us to a Cup. I've been saying the whole time that if he plays how he has been playing to win a Cup, he has played well enough to win a Cup. The first appearance of this grades metaphor by you was this:

Quote:
I know, right? If I got a D- and tried to justify it to my parents by saying "It's OK! It's good enough to pass!" they would have laughed in my face. Saying Bryz has been good enough because the team is winning is the same thing.
At that point we were talking about how Bryz has been good enough to this point. You are now using your analogy to say we won't win if he keeps playing this way. Two very different situations. He has been good enough to win up to this point, that fact is simply not disputable given that they are winning. If he puts up similar stats and loses tomorrow, he was not good enough to win.

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04-30-2012, 08:58 PM
  #767
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Beef is not saying that he is unhappy even when we win, and Bryz plays ok.
no interpretation needed: he's nit picking on the 1 possible negative in a playoff win.

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04-30-2012, 08:59 PM
  #768
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Let's try a sales analogy, since you people refuse to think critically and instead are eager to argue semantics.

Boss: Hey Bryz, you single-handedly costed the company 5.6 million dollars this fiscal year. But...the entirety of our sales team slaved away, and were able to earn 5,600,001 dollars! We came out on top! Everything is OK, and you are a great employee who's clearly doing just fine!

Bryz: That's fantastic!


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 04-30-2012 at 09:04 PM. Reason: I is bad at numberz
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04-30-2012, 09:01 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Niemi was NOT the inferior goalie, Leighton was and as a result the Flyers lost.
most of the hockey world said both were equally bad & CHI won 'despite' him.

i bet 98.124% of the Chicago fans couldn't care less. they hoisted the CUP.

if the Flyers do that, i don't care how shaky any player looks.

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04-30-2012, 09:01 PM
  #770
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no interpretation needed: he's nit picking on the 1 possible negative in a playoff win.
No, I'm pointing out that our goalie is letting in weak goals, which is a MASSIVE weakness in the playoffs. Seriously man, reading comprehension. Try it out.

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04-30-2012, 09:02 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
most of the hockey world said both were equally bad & CHI won 'despite' him.

i bet 98.124% of the Chicago fans couldn't care less. they hoisted the CUP.

if the Flyers do that, i don't care how shaky any player looks.
Most of the hockey world acknowledges that Niemi was better than Leighton. The team with the better goalie won. The team that allowed more weak goals lost.

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04-30-2012, 09:04 PM
  #772
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, I'm pointing out that our goalie is letting in weak goals.
after a playoff win on a turnover, a breakaway & a fake slap shot & he was the ONLY Flyer to show up @ 3:20 pm, the ONLY reason they were in the game after the 1st period & was stellar in OT & they WON the game.

yup, bridge - jumping material .....

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04-30-2012, 09:06 PM
  #773
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after a playoff win on a turnover, a breakaway & a fake slap shot & he was the ONLY Flyer to show up @ 3:20 pm, the ONLY reason they were in the game after the 1st period & was stellar in OT & they WON the game.

yup, bridge - jumping material .....
After being bad for two periods, letting in the weak OT causing goal, and getting bailed out by Danny Briere...after being VERY mediocre overall all playoffs and winning despite Bryz's stream of weak goals...Yup! All is well! nothing to worry about! 3.70, .873 is really good, right?

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04-30-2012, 09:09 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
no interpretation needed: he's nit picking on the 1 possible negative in a playoff win.
18th out of 19 goalie post season standings.

3.70 GAA
.873 SAV

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04-30-2012, 09:20 PM
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Let's try a sales analogy, since you people refuse to think critically and instead are eager to argue semantics.

Boss: Hey Bryz, you single-handedly costed the company 5.6 million dollars this fiscal year. But...the entirety of our sales team slaved away, and were able to earn 5,600,001 dollars! We came out on top! Everything is OK, and you are a great employee who's clearly doing just fine!

Bryz: That's fantastic!
We've been over this before. That is not how the NHL works. In a company, the goal is to make the most money possible. If that scenario happened in a business/sales world, it would not be ok as you are pointing out. In the NHL, however, the goal is to win the Stanley Cup, not have the best contracts or the best GAA. There is one goal: win the Cup. If you win the Stanley Cup, it doesn't matter how it happens. If Bryz breaks the record for worst goalie stats ever but they are hoisting a Cup, he will still get his name on there and the Flyers still will hang a Banner in October. If this team gets knocked out, then you can start saying he sucks and he's the reason and blah blah blah. But they are winning now, so his so-called bad play is not as bad as you are making it out to be. If it was, they wouldn't be winning. And whether they get knocked out this round or they win it all, your analogy is not applicable to hockey as pointed out. But go ahead and say that it is because you can't come up with anything else.

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