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3-0-1 without Thomas Vanek

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Old
03-19-2012, 01:43 PM
  #51
struckbyaparkedcar
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
And it isn't Bylsma pushing guys to be better, it's having the players they have in the room pushing one another to be better. There is a lot of character in the Pens room. Buffalo? Not as much.
And that character was where, exactly when they fired Therian?

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03-19-2012, 03:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
And that character was where, exactly when they fired Therian?
Not yet back from injury or not yet acquired via trade.

The Pens entered the 08-09 season without 3 key members from their run to the Finals against Detroit. That would be Malone, Hossa and Gonchar. Two were let go in the summer (Malone/Hossa) and one started the season on IR.

Shero made a poor attempt to replace Malone/Hossa by signing Satan/Fedotenko.


- Feb 14th Gonchar finally returns after missing 57gms.
- Feb 15th Therien is fired/Bylsma is hired
- Feb 26th the Pens trade Whitney for Kunitz
- Mar 4th the Pens acuired Bill Guerin from Isles for a conditional pick


Too many posters have this idea in their head that Bylsma turned things around all by himself. Thats not quite what happened. Bylsma coached a different team than the one Therien worked with that year. His team had the #1 dman that the Pens relied on (Gonchar) as well as the wingers for Crosby and the top 6 the Pens had needed since the start of the season (Guerin/Kunitz).

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Old
03-19-2012, 04:06 PM
  #53
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I just want the old core out. It's rotten, I don't want our promising young kids to get tainted with the suck that is Vanek, Pominville, Roy and Stafford.

Sell these vets off in the off season, re-tool and rebuild! Never going to win a cup with those guys as your leaders.

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03-19-2012, 04:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
I just want the old core out. It's rotten, I don't want our promising young kids to get tainted with the suck that is Vanek, Pominville, Roy and Stafford.

Sell these vets off in the off season, re-tool and rebuild! Never going to win a cup with those guys as your leaders.
i would keep one of pominville and vanek. probably vanek because pominville's value is higher right now.

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03-20-2012, 12:38 PM
  #55
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Just watched the highlights of last night's game again. I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but on Tropp's goal, after Vanek passes him the puck just inside the blue line, he just coasts off down the wing. It worked out for him on that play, but he should have gone to the net for the rebound. And then of course there was his play on the last Tampa goal. Why is he playing so lazy right now?

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Old
03-20-2012, 12:43 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
I just want the old core out. It's rotten, I don't want our promising young kids to get tainted with the suck that is Vanek, Pominville, Roy and Stafford.

Sell these vets off in the off season, re-tool and rebuild! Never going to win a cup with those guys as your leaders.
Why the hell would you want to trade Pommer?

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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
i would keep one of pominville and vanek. probably vanek because pominville's value is higher right now.
Pommer is the captain and better player. You don't trade him because he might get a better return.

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03-20-2012, 04:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Pommer is the captain and better player. You don't trade him because he might get a better return.
vanek goes on longer cold stretches than pominville (but maybe it's all the little injurys he probably has from the constant beating in front of the net). i wished ruff would play him on the left wall on the powerplay but that's another story.

but when both are playing their best hockey, vanek is the better player.

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03-20-2012, 05:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
vanek goes on longer cold stretches than pominville (but maybe it's all the little injurys he probably has from the constant beating in front of the net). i wished ruff would play him on the left wall on the powerplay but that's another story.

but when both are playing their best hockey, vanek is the better player.
No he isn't.

Believe it or not mattering defensively actually counts.

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03-20-2012, 05:21 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
vanek goes on longer cold stretches than pominville (but maybe it's all the little injurys he probably has from the constant beating in front of the net). i wished ruff would play him on the left wall on the powerplay but that's another story.

but when both are playing their best hockey, vanek is the better player.
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
No he isn't.

Believe it or not mattering defensively actually counts.
when they are both playing their BEST hockey... yes, Vanek is the better player...

However, Vanek is playing his best hockey 25% of the time... and Pominville is playing his best hockey 85% of the time

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03-20-2012, 05:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
when they are both playing their BEST hockey... yes, Vanek is the better player...

However, Vanek is playing his best hockey 25% of the time... and Pominville is playing his best hockey 85% of the time

What does "playing at their best" mean to you?


Last edited by joshjull: 03-20-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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03-20-2012, 05:33 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
when they are both playing their BEST hockey... yes, Vanek is the better player...

However, Vanek is playing his best hockey 25% of the time... and Pominville is playing his best hockey 85% of the time
he played pretty good or better for half the season. i would say it's more like 50%, but whatever.

pominville is playing constantly good for most of the season, vanek is not. i can see why some/many want him of the team. i'm not one of them. in two years he will get a contract which fits his play and maybe then we have a coach who can bring out his best for ~70 games.

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03-20-2012, 05:58 PM
  #62
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If I had to choose who I'd trade from the core THIS off season I would say Pomminville and Roy, keep vanek, and for now keep stafford until he can get his value back up

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03-20-2012, 06:02 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
If I had to choose who I'd trade from the core THIS off season I would say Pomminville and Roy, keep vanek, and for now keep stafford until he can get his value back up
i would keep pominville and vanek. they were two of the best wingers in the game to start the season. and i'm positive they can play at that level again.

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03-20-2012, 06:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
he played pretty good or better for half the season. i would say it's more like 50%, but whatever.

pominville is playing constantly good for most of the season, vanek is not. i can see why some/many want him of the team. i'm not one of them. in two years he will get a contract which fits his play and maybe then we have a coach who can bring out his best for ~70 games.
More of this nonsense

Let go of the fiction that Vanek's issues are caused by others. Btw what are the numbers you think he should be putting up?

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03-20-2012, 06:05 PM
  #65
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Pommer does exactly what he is supposed to do and is paid fairly for it. Why does everyone want to trade away a first line forward that consistently plays at a high level?

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03-20-2012, 06:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
More of this nonsense

Let go of the fiction that Vanek's issues are caused by others. Btw what are the numbers you think he should be putting up?
nobody knows if vanek would do better under another coach. imo yes, in your opinion no. i'm ok with that.

i think he should constantly put up 70-80 points. with at least 30 goals.

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03-20-2012, 06:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Too many posters have this idea in their head that Bylsma turned things around all by himself. Thats not quite what happened. Bylsma coached a different team than the one Therien worked with that year. His team had the #1 dman that the Pens relied on (Gonchar) as well as the wingers for Crosby and the top 6 the Pens had needed since the start of the season (Guerin/Kunitz).
I don't have that notion. I understand the fact that you need multiple things to go your way in order to win a Cup in this league. But the post I responded to acted like Byalsma is just the product of a high character locker-room and not a huge part of the reason why that team is so together.

I feel like he's done a much better job of tailoring his system (forechcking on forechecking) to his roster (grinders) than Ruff has (a puck possession scheme with no actual puck possession players).

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03-20-2012, 06:27 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I don't have that notion. I understand the fact that you need multiple things to go your way in order to win a Cup in this league. But the post I responded to acted like Byalsma is just the product of a high character locker-room and not a huge part of the reason why that team is so together.
Chain was talking about this season because the post from me he quoted was talking about this season and Byslma's use of goalies.

Neither of us said he wasn't a good coach. I was actually using the fact that he is a good coach to dispel the idea that good coaches don't ride their #1 goalies.

You're trying way too hard to find something thats not there (that the two of us don't think he is a good coach).


EDIT: My comments about how things turned around after he was hired was about the fact that much more than just a coaching changed occured to turn their season around.


Last edited by joshjull: 03-20-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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Old
03-20-2012, 06:30 PM
  #69
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I think vanek should be putting up 40 goals and 80 points but who knows if he ever will

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03-20-2012, 06:43 PM
  #70
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I'd keep Poms and Stafford. I feel like Staff will continue his recent excellent play if he keeps playing with Ennis. Trade Vanek and Roy if you can get good return.

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03-20-2012, 07:06 PM
  #71
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I'd keep Poms and Stafford. I feel like Staff will continue his recent excellent play if he keeps playing with Ennis. Trade Vanek and Roy if you can get good return.
it's too obvious to keep them together. so ruff won't keep them toghether.

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03-20-2012, 07:13 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
nobody knows if vanek would do better under another coach. imo yes, in your opinion no. i'm ok with that.

i think he should constantly put up 70-80 points. with at least 30 goals.
Since Vanek became a top line winger he has been a 30+goal 64+pt player. So he is pretty much doing what you think he should be doing.

I think his numbers are down 2 of the last 3 years due to injury issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I think vanek should be putting up 40 goals and 80 points but who knows if he ever will
He had his only 80+pt season in 06-07 when he was on a secondary scoring line and put up ES numbers he will never get near again(28g 34a 64pts). His ES game isn't good enough to consistantly put up 40g 80pts as a top line LW. Plus he seems to be having recurring shoulder injury issues. This is the 2nd season in the last 3 that he has struggled for that reason.

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Old
03-20-2012, 07:14 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I think vanek should be putting up 40 goals and 80 points but who knows if he ever will
Not if this team doesn't get tougher. Vanek is like a lightning rod for dirty play and excessive beatings. Nobody EVER sticks up for this guy, well ok Cody does but nobody on his line, and nobody sends the right message back the other way. Guys like vanek and Ennis need to be allowed to worry about hockey and nothing else.

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03-20-2012, 07:21 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Since Vanek became a top line winger he has been a 30+goal 64+pt player. So he is pretty much doing what you think he should be doing.

I think his numbers are down 2 of the last 3 years due to injury issues.
i think 70 points should be his minimum. he pretty much plays on that pace or over every second year.
so, let's be excited for next year

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Old
03-20-2012, 07:31 PM
  #75
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As a top line player Pommer is better.... period. At ES Pommer has always been the better player.

Pommer has been a top line RW for 200gms. That would be all of 06-07, from Jan 1st on last year and all of this season. Vanek has been a top line since the captains left (the 07-09 season to the present).

Production at ES on the top line

Pommer ---> 200gms 61g (.31 ESgpg) 58a (.29 ESapg) 119pts (.6 ESppg)
Vanek ----> 375gms 87g (.23 ESgpg) 100a (.27 ESapg) 187pts (.5 ESppg)


Defensively there is no contest, Pommer is much better than Vanek.


Where Vanek is the clearly better player is in PP prodcution, particulary goal scoring.


Even if you took their career ES numbers Vanek isn't more productive.

Pommer ---> 532gms 123g (.23 ESgpg) 151a (.28 ESapg) 274pts (.56 ESppg)
Vanek ----> 538gms 129g (.24 ESgpg) 144a (.27 ESapg) 273pts (.51 ESppg)

when their respective defensive games are thrown in its no contest, Pommer is better.


Last edited by joshjull: 03-20-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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