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Old
11-13-2004, 07:57 PM
  #51
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
Briere is one of the top 30-40 players in the league, Gagne is maybe top 80 and on the decline.
How did you reach the conclusion that Gagne is "on the decline?"


Although I do like Briere, he was something like 30th in NHL scoring last season. Given that he is an offense-only player, that isn't really that impressive. I'd say there at least 30 - 40 forwards who would rank above him (including Gagne) and quite a few dmen and goaltenders. I wouldn't put Briere anywhere near the top 40 players in the NHL.

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Old
11-13-2004, 07:57 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
Ahh yes, polls "settle" everything...
LOL. Well you do have a good point there...

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:00 PM
  #53
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I'd have to see Briere do what he did for the great stretches he had last year, on a more consistent basis, and over more years, to say he's a top 30-40 player in the league, IMO.

that would place him at least in the top 20 centers, or even top 15, and I don't know if I'd consider him that high.

I'd say right now Morrison is close, but maybe not at the top 30-40 players in the league, and I'd have him higher ranked than Briere, given that he's played at a high level for longer than Briere has, and is one of the top defensive forwards and one of the top PK forwards on a very good PK in the league.

I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard for most non-Sabres fans to name 30-40 players around the league that they would rank higher than Briere.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:10 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
LOL. Well you do have a good point there...
meh, if helps I guess.... shows what people think of the two players.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:11 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
Check the stats, and check the attributes.
Just off the top of my head, players I'd take over Briere for this upcoming season:

Richards, St. Louis, LeCavalier, Khabibulin, Modin, Kubina, Thornton, Samsonov Gonchar, Murray, Boynton, Primeau, Johnsson, Handzus, Roenick, Esche, Desjardins, Zhamnov, Sundin, McCabe, Roberts, Mogilny (if healthy), Leetch, Belfour, Hossa, Alfredsson, Havlat, Spezza, Redden, Chara, Elias, Gomez, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Brodeur, Ribiero, Koivu, Zednik, Souray, Ryder, Theodore, Yashin, Peca, Parish, Hamrlik, Aucoin, Niinimaa, and Dipietro.

That's 49 names, and that was only going quickly through the 8 eastern conference playoff teams from last season.

That leaves me 22 more teams, and makes it doubtful that Briere is a top 100 player.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:13 PM
  #56
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I have it ranked the way I think GMs would look at it, players like Jagr, Guerin, Tkchoke etc. would not be in the top 30-40 since we are talking about value, correct?

(We arent talking about prospects here either)

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:15 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
I have it ranked the way I think GMs would look at it, players like Jagr, Guerin, Tkchoke etc. would not be in the top 30-40 since we are talking about value, correct?

(We arent talking about prospects here either)
For value, Briere is easily top 40. For overall player, not in my opinion. He is more top 50-70.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:15 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Just off the top of my head, players I'd take over Briere for this upcoming season:

Richards, St. Louis, LeCavalier, Khabibulin, Modin, Kubina, Thornton, Samsonov Gonchar, Murray, Boynton, Primeau, Johnsson, Handzus, Roenick, Esche, Desjardins, Zhamnov, Sundin, McCabe, Roberts, Mogilny (if healthy), Leetch, Belfour, Hossa, Alfredsson, Havlat, Spezza, Redden, Chara, Elias, Gomez, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Brodeur, Ribiero, Koivu, Zednik, Souray, Ryder, Theodore, Yashin, Peca, Parish, Hamrlik, Aucoin, Niinimaa, and Dipietro.

That's 49 names, and that was only going quickly through the 8 eastern conference playoff teams from last season.

That leaves me 22 more teams, and makes it doubtful that Briere is a top 100 player.
I should have noted were talking about wingers, but man you have alot of cadavers listed there.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:17 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
I should have noted were talking about wingers, but man you have alot of cadavers listed there.
I was talking about for the upcoming season only .... not the next 3-7 years.

Briere a top 30-40 winger for this upcoming season ?? Close, probably somewhere near 40th.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:26 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#4. Gagne didn't play with Roenick at all last year..
Check it out :http://www.philaphans.com/news/flyers/1085133520.html
from the article:
Simon Gagne put the finishing touches on a beautiful rush with line mates Primeau and Roenick. Roenick brought the puck into the zone with speed, dishing it to Primeau above the right circle. Primeau, well covered by Tampa’s Pavel Kubina, gracefully kicked the puck to Gagne in the slot. Cutting across the crease, Gagne bounced the puck over Khabibulin and then picked it out of mid-air, roofing into Tampa’s net.

Ken Hitchcock, perhaps the most unheralded hero on the team, continues to showcase his coaching prowess in the playoffs. He continues to tinker and make all the right decisions. After a disappointing game five loss, the construction of the Gagne-Primeau-Roenick line proved to be a masterful combination of speed, skill, grit, and character. The line collected eight points.

“The whole line was unbelievable,” Hitchcock said. “Keith led the charge, but he had a right wing and a left wing that were right there with him.”

*************
I'll meet you halfway on this, though, because it was the playoffs. See? I'm not so bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#6. He's so much on the decline that he was again selected to play for Team Canada in the World Cup.
M-A-R-K-E-T V-A-L-U-E is the name of the game!!!!! We're not talking about who's better than who, we're talking about market value based on current contract terms. This whole thing started with Satan not being marketable based on his price in relation to who else is available and it got to this. I hope that's what the poll is asking (I have yet to look) - who has more market value. If it doesn't, think about changing it so it's relevant to this debate.

*Also, I earlier stated that Gagne finds himself in the coach's doghouse when I meant to say GM Clarke's dh.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:30 PM
  #61
Winston Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
First off, take a look at my post. I said Briere is pretty damn close. I didn't say he had more value than Gagne, so put the top back on the gas can.
And where the hell did I say you did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
Who he was traded for doesn't mean jack, by the way, because Gratton was traded for a few decent players in his day. Guys like Morris, Langkow, Renberg, Ballard, Sarich...I know, I know: they're a bunch of chumps.
Who he was recently traded for doesn't mean jack when talking about market values? Yeah, that makes sense. Anyways, the names you listed don't mean jack, as the deals they were involved in were either many years ago when Gratton wasn't known to be a "chump" or were dealt for other players. Morris and Ballard were traded for Vaananen and a 2nd, Gratton was basically a throw in to even it out. Yep, so Briere has all the trade value of a throw in and a switch of 3rd and 4th rounders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
However, I will now challenge you to substantiate your claims:
1) Explain how DB is a one dimensional forward.
2) Explain how is he is still a defensive liability.
Briere is a small forward who has above average speed, but does not play bigger than he is. He may be feisty at times, but he still plays small, IMO. It's not like he's a small guy who's built, either. He's like 5'9/5'10 and built like a toothpick. Briere is still a defensive liability, no matter what you want to say. It may not be as obvious on a bad team with guys like Dumont and Afinogenov, who are also horrible defensively. Briere may have improved defensively since coming to Buffalo, but I still put him way below the average NHL forward. With Briere it's offense first and foremost as he'll stay in the offensive zone if it looks like there's any possibility of an offensive play, whereas defensively responsible forwards like Gagne are already dropping back on the defensive. A highly comparable player to Briere is Marc Savard, small guy who can put up a good amount of points on a bad team, but is worthless if he isn't scoring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
Where Gagne had a decent playoff run, Briere closed out the season with points in 13 of the last 16 games.
Wait, was that with the 30 goal scorer, Hecht? Gagne racked up a bunch of points after the all star break as well and had an impressive playoffs. Your point being?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
Gagne is a guy clearly on the way down. His last three seasons are 66, 27 and 45 points. He's truly a one dimensional player, being a second unit PP guy (6 PPG, 8 PPA last season) at best. He spends way too much time in his coach's doghouse for being soft and inconsistent. Like I said earlier, he did have a decent playoff year, but he couldn't lead Howard Stern to a strip club, and leadership is huge in the playoffs. His nagging injuries over the past two seasons don't help his market value either. Shooting percentage you ask? Gagne shot at 11.4% in 03-04 with a 12.9% for his career. He put up 45 points last year in a full season with guys like Primeau and Roenick. Face it, the guy's on the decline. He does have a better mullet, though, and for that he should get paid more than $2.6M.
Dude, it's not even worth it with you, as you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Gagne a one dimensional player, while Briere isn't? Completely lost all credibility right there. You're a HF staff writer? You want to talk about leadership, where the **** did Buffalo's captain lead them to last year? And if Gagne was on a crappy team like Buffalo, he would easily get first unit PP time.

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:41 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by flyers guy
bla bla bla
8-0 is still bitter in this one

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:56 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
Check it out :http://www.philaphans.com/news/flyers/1085133520.html
from the article:
Simon Gagne put the finishing touches on a beautiful rush with line mates Primeau and Roenick. Roenick brought the puck into the zone with speed, dishing it to Primeau above the right circle. Primeau, well covered by Tampa’s Pavel Kubina, gracefully kicked the puck to Gagne in the slot. Cutting across the crease, Gagne bounced the puck over Khabibulin and then picked it out of mid-air, roofing into Tampa’s net.
Ken Hitchcock, perhaps the most unheralded hero on the team, continues to showcase his coaching prowess in the playoffs. He continues to tinker and make all the right decisions. After a disappointing game five loss, the construction of the Gagne-Primeau-Roenick line proved to be a masterful combination of speed, skill, grit, and character. The line collected eight points.

“The whole line was unbelievable,” Hitchcock said. “Keith led the charge, but he had a right wing and a left wing that were right there with him.” [QUOTE=Kris Baker]

That was the only time they played together all year.

During the regular season it was Gagne-Primeau-Kapanen. Roenick played with Amonte and Recchi.

The only time Gagne played with a different center was when Primeau & Roenick were both out with concussions, and Gagne played with Zhamnov.

In the playoffs Roenick was moved to the wing, and played with Zhamnov and Amonte for the first two and a half rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
I'll meet you halfway on this, though, because it was the playoffs. See? I'm not so bad.

M-A-R-K-E-T V-A-L-U-E is the name of the game!!!!! We're not talking about who's better than who, we're talking about market value based on current contract terms. This whole thing started with Satan not being marketable based on his price in relation to who else is available and it got to this. I hope that's what the poll is asking (I have yet to look) - who has more market value. If it doesn't, think about changing it so it's relevant to this debate.

*Also, I earlier stated that Gagne finds himself in the coach's doghouse when I meant to say GM Clarke's dh.
In the doghouse ??? I wouldn't call it the doghouse, what Clarke talked about was that Gagne needs to think more offensively and to be more aggressive.

With Hitchcock playing the Gagne/Primeau line against the top scoring line for other teams, gagne will sometimes focus too much on defense and not think offense.

IMO Gagne, while a very very good defensive winger, needs to be used on more of a scoring role. The Flyers lack goal scoring wingers, and when Gagne is played on a line that thinks offense ... his numbers jump dramatically.



As for market value, Gagne still holds more value than Briere. Salaries are nearly identical for next year ($2.55 M vs. $2.6). Gagne is 2.5 years younger, and plays a better all-around game.

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Old
11-13-2004, 09:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
8-0 is still bitter in this one
Care to refute anything I said, or would you prefer to just live in your dreamworld where Briere is a top 30-40 player?

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Old
11-13-2004, 10:57 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Dude, it's not even worth it with you, as you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Gagne a one dimensional player, while Briere isn't? Completely lost all credibility right there. You're a HF staff writer? You want to talk about leadership, where the **** did Buffalo's captain lead them to last year? And if Gagne was on a crappy team like Buffalo, he would easily get first unit PP time.
Typical.
I agree that it's not worth it to get into with me. I mean look at the results: I give you plenty of factual, statistical evidence about market value with dude A and dude B, you get all red in the face and get personal instead of coming back with facts as evidence (I mean, come on, you didn't even try), then start talking team trash. The only numbers you use is calling a 5'10, 180 pound Briere a toothpick when he's being compared to Gagne who stands 6'0 185? What? Good argument...
I challenged whoever to build a case for Gagne, and NOT ONE POSTER (regardless of team affiliation) came up with a solid leg to stand on. That's where the opinions about player a and b (not facts) and petty insults about my writing ability came into play. Again, awesome job.

And to whomever pointed out that Briere and Gagne have very similar salaries- really? You don't say? Yelll-owww: that's the point of the whole A vs. B debate. That right there shows alot about how this thread was viewed...

As a member of the staff, I'm discouraged to answer the bell when it comes to these types of discussions. However, if you'd prefer to escalate this even more about who's got the hotter girl, faster car, biggest feet or whatever non-hovkey statistical "analysis" you'd like to use, shoot me a PM because I'm dating Heather Locklear, driving a Porsche 911, and kicking stuff with a size 22.

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Old
11-13-2004, 11:03 PM
  #66
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Satan is the better offensive player. which is what some people on this board only seem to look at. Gagne scored 24 goals last season playing 40 plus games on the checking line, plus he is the best defensive winger on the team.
Calling him overrated is as about as narrowminded as your going to get. As much as i like Satan as an offensive player. i will pass on this deal. maybe i am in the minority. if i am fine. I would still take what Gagne brings to the table every night.

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Old
11-13-2004, 11:06 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Right. So, I don't think Hecht, who has never scored more than 19 goals in a season, is a 30 goal scorer. That must mean I haven't seen him play?

Puh-leeze. Take off your homer colored glasses. Hecht has never score 20 in a single season. Gagne did that in his rookie year, and has hit over that plateau every year he has been in the league except one.

Hecht is not even close to be in Gagne's league. In terms of market value, Hecht would not get your Gagne's shoe laces.
First off, Hecht scored 19 goals in a 72 game season. If he had played all 82 games, he would have most definatly scored at least 20. Second, Gagne has alot better talent around him that Hecht has had his entire career. Hecht is putting up point totals with players who would at best 2nd liners on most contending teams (yes, even Briere, is an ideal 2nd line center) (i'm probably going to killed for that by other Sabre fans). My exact statement was this: Give Hecht a healthy season with top line players, there is little doubt he would be a 30 goal, 70 point guy. Is Gagne a better player than Hecht and has more value? Yes, without a doubt. Is the gap so signifigant that they shouldn't ever be mentioned in the same breath? No. Hecht is UNDER RATED. Yes he's 27, but as most people will point out to you, most hockey players don't enter their prime until this time of their career.

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Old
11-13-2004, 11:10 PM
  #68
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Um,does anyone remember the time last year,when I believe Gagne beat the **** out of Hecht?

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11-13-2004, 11:19 PM
  #69
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Just to add some fuel to the fire here:

I like Briere. He is really a great leader on the team and is doing a great job lining up at #1 center. However, there are a few things:

#1. Briere is small. He tends to get worn down and will go on hot streaks and cold streaks. When Buffalo makes it to the playoffs, I don't think it will be that hard to shut him down.
#2. Briere, if used ideally, would be a great 2nd line center. However, Buffalo has the IDEAL 2nd line center in Chris Drury, who is also locked up in a long term deal. My guess is that after Buffalo gets blown out in the playoffs, they add a big name UFA center and send Briere packing for defensive help.
#3. Top 40 players in the league?? That really is a strech. Briere had a great year last year. I might concede top 50 forwards, def. top 30 centers, but to put him in the top 75 players is really a strech. If its any consolation, I wouldn't put Gagne in the top 75 either.

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11-13-2004, 11:30 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
In the doghouse ??? I wouldn't call it the doghouse, what Clarke talked about was that Gagne needs to think more offensively and to be more aggressive.

With Hitchcock playing the Gagne/Primeau line against the top scoring line for other teams, gagne will sometimes focus too much on defense and not think offense.

IMO Gagne, while a very very good defensive winger, needs to be used on more of a scoring role. The Flyers lack goal scoring wingers, and when Gagne is played on a line that thinks offense ... his numbers jump dramatically.
I think alot of this is a function of Hitchcock being a defensive oriented coach. What seems clear to me is that what has happened to Gagne is the same that thing that has gone on with many Buffalo players under Lindy Ruff - they get stifled offensively. As far as the doghouse goes, the perception (media created or not) was that he was being dangled by Clarke due to dissatisfaction with his game. Patrick Sharp was around to take Williams' role, and the thinking was that the system was loaded with enough talent to allow a move to be made with Gagne.

One thing that seems to really lost here is post #45 in this thread. I say that I wanted Buffalo to go out and try to get Gagne. Even if I think his game appears to be on the decline, he'd still be a player I'd want. With defensive players already in the mix, he'd flourish as a scorer here. No one in the hockey world was surprised to see him put up better numbers with better mates. The argument presented was about market value (I'm going to hear those words in my sleep tonight!), which I can't stress enough is an altogether different beast. Briere has value on the market period, and so does Gagne. The debate was who has more - that's it! It's not like anyone on the Briere side was saying that Gagne is no good.

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11-13-2004, 11:31 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Baker
Typical.
I agree that it's not worth it to get into with me. I mean look at the results: I give you plenty of factual, statistical evidence about market value with dude A and dude B, you get all red in the face and get personal instead of coming back with facts as evidence (I mean, come on, you didn't even try), then start talking team trash. The only numbers you use is calling a 5'10, 180 pound Briere a toothpick when he's being compared to Gagne who stands 6'0 185? What? Good argument...
I challenged whoever to build a case for Gagne, and NOT ONE POSTER (regardless of team affiliation) came up with a solid leg to stand on. That's where the opinions about player a and b (not facts) and petty insults about my writing ability came into play. Again, awesome job.
You're the one who started getting snippy with me in your first post, I just got pissed over the junk you posted in response.

I looked up both players' profiles and Gagne came up as 6'0, 195 and Briere came up as 5'10, 179. Watching Briere play, he has a very small frame. You also never asked me to make a case for Gagne, you asked me to substantiate my case against Briere, which you ignored. I talked about actual play, while you want to bring up useless stats like shooting percentage and power play points on different teams in much different situations. You also bring up a bunch of crap about Gagne not being a good leader, with absolutely no proof. Besides, when was a 24 year old ever supposed to be the leader on a veteran-laden team?

I also never made an insult about your writing abilities. I just think that you don't watch nearly enough hockey if you think a guy like Simon Gagne is one dimensional, while he gets named to Team Canada primarily for his defensive play.

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11-13-2004, 11:32 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The difference is that Gagne has already scored 30 goals and 60 points in a season. Hecht has never come close to that number. In fact, Hecht has never scored more than 19 in a season.

Gagne, in his rookie year, scored more than Hecht did in his career year. So, I don't see how you can even mention the two players in the same breath.
I agree with you on the goalscoring point. As much as I like Hecht I don't see him as a guy who can reach 30 goals on a consistant basis (though for the sake of argument Gagne hasn't been doing it on a regular basis either). However I would argue that 52 points (in 64 games) is pretty close to 60. I think I'd win that one too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyer guy
Briere is a small forward who has above average speed, but does not play bigger than he is.
Explain why you think he doesn't play bigger than he is? The Danny Briere I've watched crashes the nets, goes into corners and the boards freely and willingly, and will really take on any battle he faces. He plays like a 5'10" "power forward." If he was 6'2", with his offensive abilities, he'd probably be wildly considered as a top player in the league. But he's 5'10" and I have to disagree with Kris here: he has all the effort in the world in his defensive end but he's just not very good. Combine these and you get a very good player who might end up in an All Star game here or there but won't enter that top echelon. It's not such a bad thing.


If you're willing to take a bit of advice then I'd suggest stop commenting about Sabre players. Your ignorance on the topic is obvious based on your comments about Briere and Dumont. Just because you don't think Briere has the same market value as Gagne (and Kris never claimed he did, go back and check), doesn't mean you have to make it out like Briere not only shouldn't be in the NHL but shouldn't be. It's okay to say nice things about other teams' players. It's not a sign of weakness.

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Old
11-13-2004, 11:43 PM
  #73
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I equate this whole discussion to the fan who saw Crosby play last night (one assist), and walked away wondering what all the hype was about, or the guy who was in Pittsburgh a loooong time ago and saw Rob Ray score on his first shot on his first shift.

We all watch the games, we all see the games, and we all form our own opinions from it. Flyers Guy- was it the "gas can" comment that got you? (I had to go back and look.)

Ruck- keep in kind that I'm not referring to Briere as a defensive juggernaut (no Selke going there), but more in disagreement that he's a defensive liabilty. He's never going to cream people, but he's come leaps and bounds from where he was when he entered the league in regards to simple positioning, backchecking, and even tying up sticks. He's come far enough to earn the coaching staff's confidence when protecting those rare leads late in the game.

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11-14-2004, 12:10 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Kris Baker
I equate this whole discussion to the fan who saw Crosby play last night (one assist), and walked away wondering what all the hype was about, or the guy who was in Pittsburgh a loooong time ago and saw Rob Ray score on his first shot on his first shift.

We all watch the games, we all see the games, and we all form our own opinions from it. Flyers Guy- was it the "gas can" comment that got you? (I had to go back and look.)

Ruck- keep in kind that I'm not referring to Briere as a defensive juggernaut (no Selke going there), but more in disagreement that he's a defensive liabilty. He's never going to cream people, but he's come leaps and bounds from where he was when he entered the league in regards to simple positioning, backchecking, and even tying up sticks. He's come far enough to earn the coaching staff's confidence when protecting those rare leads late in the game.

Though this year probably isn't the best to make my point I always have compared Briere's defensive ability to Travis Henry's blocking. Henry tries as hard as you could want to block people but for whatever reason he either makes the wrong decisions as to who to block or how. That's how I see Briere. He makes questionable decisions on what angles to take, how to position himself etc. But makes his mistakes while attempting 100% to do the right thing.


What should be pointed out though, is when he's on the ice his shift usually doesn't spend much time in the defensive zone.

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11-14-2004, 02:48 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
First off, Hecht scored 19 goals in a 72 game season. If he had played all 82 games, he would have most definatly scored at least 20. Second, Gagne has alot better talent around him that Hecht has had his entire career. Hecht is putting up point totals with players who would at best 2nd liners on most contending teams (yes, even Briere, is an ideal 2nd line center) (i'm probably going to killed for that by other Sabre fans). My exact statement was this: Give Hecht a healthy season with top line players, there is little doubt he would be a 30 goal, 70 point guy. Is Gagne a better player than Hecht and has more value? Yes, without a doubt. Is the gap so signifigant that they shouldn't ever be mentioned in the same breath? No. Hecht is UNDER RATED. Yes he's 27, but as most people will point out to you, most hockey players don't enter their prime until this time of their career.
Hecht played with some pretty high level linemate in St. Louis and still did nothing.

You're talking about a journeyman player who has had difficulty staying in the top six his entire career. He had one good 20 game streak in Buffalo, and now you tell me that "there is little doubt that he could be a 30 goal 70 point guy." Here is a guy whose all time high in goals is 19, and you are telling me that he could definitely be a 30 goal scorer under better circumstances. ANd, I'm supposed to buy that generous projection based on the optimistic opinion of one less-than-objective Sabre fan.

I must say that these sort of arguments get real old. "Joe Player on my favorite team has never scored 20 goals in his career. But, he is really better than that. In fact, if he had better linemates, he would score 30 goals a season. And, if you don't agree with that, than you must not have seen him play...."

When Hecht scores 30 goals, he'll be a 30 goal scorer. Right now, he is a 15 - 20 goal third liner, and not even that in some seasons.

Comparing him to Gagne is basically ridiculous, and I suspect you know that.

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