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BUF/PHI proposal

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Old
11-14-2004, 08:45 AM
  #76
TehDoak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hecht played with some pretty high level linemate in St. Louis and still did nothing.

You're talking about a journeyman player who has had difficulty staying in the top six his entire career. He had one good 20 game streak in Buffalo, and now you tell me that "there is little doubt that he could be a 30 goal 70 point guy." Here is a guy whose all time high in goals is 19, and you are telling me that he could definitely be a 30 goal scorer under better circumstances. ANd, I'm supposed to buy that generous projection based on the optimistic opinion of one less-than-objective Sabre fan.

.
In St. Louis? He played with Handzus and Bartecko. One is a 2nd liner and the other is a borderline NHLer. Hecht is injury prone. That is the biggest reason why his point totals have suffered. He has battled injuries and played alot of NHL games while injured. Give him one COMPLETLY healthy NHL season and put him with legit first line NHLers. Hecht played great once he was fully recovered from his broken arm:

From January on:

43 GP, 12 Goals, 28 assists, 40 points.

Thats nearly a PPG clip. Half a season is not just 'one good month'
Give him a healthy season and legit top line teammates, those numbers would only get better. Your completly tearing into a guy who you have labeled as a 3rd liner and won't listen to any arguments that might challenge your presuppositions about a certain player. On a championship team, Hecht is an ideal 2nd line player who would probably be a 20 goal, 50 point guy who can play PK and the 2nd PP unit. However, if he were given top line ice time with 1st line team mates, his production would jump, much like most players in the league would.

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11-14-2004, 10:43 AM
  #77
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looks like a big can of worms has been opened here.

Firstly, nucksfan, I didn't mean to offend anyone here, I think you took that point totally the wrong way. I was just pointing out that so called prospects, and young players seem to get more over rated here than the current big names in the league. I wasn't insulting anybodies intelligence or anything like that.

Thanks for the post though. I must admit, I was under the impression that should we get no hockey this year {lets be honest, its gonna happen}, then the contracts would last another year on top. If Satan is effectively a UFA now, then sure, the deal is not fair. I was assuming he had an extra year to go and was basing the deal on that.


Just a couple of other points i'd like to make after quickly reading the other posts in the topic...

I don't see Demitra as a better player than Miro, they are about equal IMO. Satan a slightly better scorer, but Demitra being more consistant. However I think a lot of teams will be after him {demitra} and therefore its not a given that someone like Philly can just say 'we can get demitra'

I really like Hecht as a player, but I don't think he is a good scorer. He is a great playmaker, and his defensive game is good too. Put him on a line with good scorers and you can't go wrong. I don't think he is as good as Gagne though, he would be a definite upgrade. However, that doesn't take anything away from Hecht. 30 goals is maybe a bit optimistic, but 60+ points is very realistic, all he needs to do is stay fit for a season. Playing with Briere and Dumont.. that was a superb line. He was also amazing playing with Drury and Grier... who are players that I don't like at all.

As for Briere, I think he is about equal in value with Gagne. What he loses in size he makes up for with heart. He has also got the ability, and is a good scorer. You don't lead your team in points if you aren't. He was our best Captain last season too, IMO. Personally I'd love to see Gagne playing with Danny, i think they would work well together.

Sabres prospects, aside from Vanek and Roy, and possibly Paille, I am not confident in our young guys, certainly not as confident as the guy who put us up alongside TB and Atlanta. I also think Miller is vastly over rated, and agree with the poster who said that we are nowhere on D. Aside from Kalinin and Jillson, we are scarily weak. We should have got Meszaros last year, but thats another story for another day, that is a particularly sore point with me.

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Old
11-14-2004, 12:22 PM
  #78
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My irriation with Mdoak mirrors the irritation I felt with another equally knowledgable Sabre's fan, Digable5 last week (and, no, I was not being sarcastic -I do think highly of both posters). He and I had a go around about Maxim Afingonev who he swore would be a 30 goal scorer under better circumstances. As I argued then, what a player may or may not do under different circumstances in terms of your own personal projection is fairly irrelevant. I'm much more intrested in what he has actually done and I really don't care for what a hometown fan "projects" a player to be.

With Hecht, you are talking about a 27-YO player who has basically been a consistent 15 - 20 goal scorer. Except for maybe 20 games in Buffalo he has never done anything. 95% of the time some over optimistic fan makes a "projection" like this it doesn't come close to being true. It is pretty rare that a player in his late 20s, who has never had a single 30 goal campaign, all of a sudden finds his form. It does happen (see Craig Conroy) but that is a very unusual outcome.

With Sabre fans, I'm always reminded about Mike Peca. Back when we were having those wars about the Peca trade, Sabre fans were insisting that Peca was actually a 30 goal/ 70 point man. The arguement was that he had never put up those numbers because he was in a defensive system, playing with sub-par linemates. And, predicatably, once he got traded, he became the same 40 - 50 point scorer he always was - even when put in an offensive system with more productive linemates.

A useful player? Sure. But, a definite 30 goal scorer or a player who should be mentioned in the same breath as one of the better young wingers in the league? Absolutely not. Hecht is what he is. He is a decent third line forward who can step up to the six when he is hot. And, that is about it.

And btw, MDOAK, Hecht was given plenty of chances to assume a more prominent role in both St. Louis and EDM. In both cities, he took shifts in the top six and was given PP time. He simply failed to earn anything more than his marginal status.

Anyway, like I said, come back to us when Hecht actually scores at a decent clip over an entire season or two. I'm not interested in personal projections and I'm not interested in brief hot streaks. Until he shows something over a longer period of time, "projecting" him to be in the league with the likes of Gagne is just ridiculous.

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11-14-2004, 12:33 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

A useful player? Sure. But, a definite 30 goal scorer or a player who should be mentioned in the same breath as one of the better young wingers in the league?

Yeah one of the best young wingers who has done jack **** the past 2 years.The main reason for the Sabres late push last season wasn't the play of Danny Briere,but Jochen Hecht.If Hecht stays healthy,he will score 65 points.Gagne's defense also isn't nearly as good as Jochen.

I love like you that when Hecht proves himself over a long period of time you will believe in him,when the guy's jock you are riding so hard,Gagne had 45 points last year on a much talented team then Buffalo,while Hecht,had 7 more points in 16 less games.Hecht had a much better year then Gagne did last year,and even last year when they both got hurt.The past 2 years Hecht has been the better player,but yet he can' be mentioned in the same breath as Simon Crosby

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11-14-2004, 12:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PizzapieZeppelin18
Um,does anyone remember the time last year,when I believe Gagne beat the **** out of Hecht?
I remember Hecht hitting Gagne and watching Gagne turtle and grapple, just pretending he was fighting.

That fight?

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Old
11-14-2004, 12:46 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
My irriation with Mdoak mirrors the irritation I felt with another equally knowledgable Sabre's fan, Digable5 last week (and, no, I was not being sarcastic -I do think highly of both posters). He and I had a go around about Maxim Afingonev who he swore would be a 30 goal scorer under better circumstances. As I argued then, what a player may or may not do under different circumstances in terms of your own personal projection is fairly irrelevant. I'm much more intrested in what he has actually done and I really don't care for what a hometown fan "projects" a player to be.

With Hecht, you are talking about a 27-YO player who has basically been a consistent 15 - 20 goal scorer. Except for maybe 20 games in Buffalo he has never done anything. 95% of the time some over optimistic fan makes a "projection" like this it doesn't come close to being true. It is pretty rare that a player in his late 20s, who has never had a single 30 goal campaign, all of a sudden finds his form. It does happen (see Craig Conroy) but that is a very unusual outcome.

With Sabre fans, I'm always reminded about Mike Peca. Back when we were having those wars about the Peca trade, Sabre fans were insisting that Peca was actually a 30 goal/ 70 point man. The arguement was that he had never put up those numbers because he was in a defensive system, playing with sub-par linemates. And, predicatably, once he got traded, he became the same 40 - 50 point scorer he always was - even when put in an offensive system with more productive linemates.

A useful player? Sure. But, a definite 30 goal scorer or a player who should be mentioned in the same breath as one of the better young wingers in the league? Absolutely not. Hecht is what he is. He is a decent third line forward who can step up to the six when he is hot. And, that is about it.

And btw, MDOAK, Hecht was given plenty of chances to assume a more prominent role in both St. Louis and EDM. In both cities, he took shifts in the top six and was given PP time. He simply failed to earn anything more than his marginal status.

Anyway, like I said, come back to us when Hecht actually scores at a decent clip over an entire season or two. I'm not interested in personal projections and I'm not interested in brief hot streaks. Until he shows something over a longer period of time, "projecting" him to be in the league with the likes of Gagne is just ridiculous.
good post... agree with it... I would even add guys like Briere under that caution... Briere has played at a higher level longer than Hecht, and no doubt his value is higher because of it, but I'd like to see him play there consistently to project him as a top 30-40 player in the league.

Players often have a year or two in their careers when they overachieve... the star players are able to do it consistently and teams can rely on them to produce the same year after year... but most players have their 30 goal year once and then revert back to the the 15-20 goal scorers they really are... still valuable players for their teams, but not stars.

Being a canuck fan, I'd love to project a guy like Cooke as a future 30-35 goal scorer... I could throw out the same arguments - he's young, getting better, stepping up, having great stretches and playing big on the top line - and all that on an above average team... reality though is that he *may* hit 30 goals sometime in his career - have that career year that many players have... but he's still a 15-20 goal guy who's a much better 3rd liner than he would ever be a top 6er, despite his age and his upside he still has to reach.

just because a guy is still young, and has shown glimpses of being something greater, doesn't mean they'll get there - in fact most players never do.

Gagne, unlike most of these guys, has shown that high level of play at a very early stage - an age in development when guys like Briere and Hecht were still trying to make the NHL fulltime.

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Old
11-14-2004, 01:00 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Yeah one of the best young wingers who has done jack **** the past 2 years.The main reason for the Sabres late push last season wasn't the play of Danny Briere,but Jochen Hecht.If Hecht stays healthy,he will score 65 points.Gagne's defense also isn't nearly as good as Jochen.

I love like you that when Hecht proves himself over a long period of time you will believe in him,when the guy's jock you are riding so hard,Gagne had 45 points last year on a much talented team then Buffalo,while Hecht,had 7 more points in 16 less games.Hecht had a much better year then Gagne did last year,and even last year when they both got hurt.The past 2 years Hecht has been the better player,but yet he can' be mentioned in the same breath as Simon Crosby

Well isn't that part of the problem though? St Louis fans called him Broken Hecht for a very good reason.

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Old
11-14-2004, 01:08 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Yeah one of the best young wingers who has done jack **** the past 2 years.The main reason for the Sabres late push last season wasn't the play of Danny Briere,but Jochen Hecht.If Hecht stays healthy,he will score 65 points.Gagne's defense also isn't nearly as good as Jochen.

I love like you that when Hecht proves himself over a long period of time you will believe in him,when the guy's jock you are riding so hard,Gagne had 45 points last year on a much talented team then Buffalo,while Hecht,had 7 more points in 16 less games.Hecht had a much better year then Gagne did last year,and even last year when they both got hurt.The past 2 years Hecht has been the better player,but yet he can' be mentioned in the same breath as Simon Crosby
Gagne was hurt a year ago. Last year he scored 24 goals, in his least productive full season in the NHL. That "least productive season" exceeds Hecht's best season in the NHL by a considerable margin. And, once again, he outscored Hecht.

Hecht "much better season " the year before was a grand total of 10 goals. Also, another forgetable injury plagued season and not a bit better than Simon Gagne's season.

And, btw, exactly why is it that ONLY Gagne's last two seasons count. We forget about the 33 goal and 27 goal seasons right? Numbers that Hecht never had, and likely never will, approach.

If Hecht stays healthy, is on a better team, blah, blah blah. As I said above, it is really nice that Buffalo homers project Hecht to a higher level than he has ever actually shown. But, I'm interested in what he has really done.

As I said, comparing Hecht to Gagne is ridiculous.


Chances that Gagne will score 30 again in the NHL are quite good. Chances that Hecht will ever reach that number are next to nil. We're talking different leagues here as far as trade value and talent.

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Old
11-14-2004, 01:18 PM
  #84
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Hecht wont score 30 goals and I don't know why that was brought up or why you guys are arguing over it.

Hecht is more about the assists and defensive play. I think 50-55 assists and 20 goals will be his best year (I said he's would get 20-55-75 next year a whle back).

The only way Jochen scores 30 goals (he has the talent too but he looks for assists first, like how Foresberg could score 40 goals in his sleep if he dint always look pass), is if Buffalo has a Tampa Bay like season where anyone on the top 2 lines just needs to step on the ice and rack up points.

Not to say he would become Cory Stillman, Hecht actually contributes.

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Old
11-14-2004, 02:23 PM
  #85
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75 points from Hecht also seems extremely optimistic, considering that he is 27 and has one 50 point season to his credit.

I'd guess that Hecht's future is as a 15-20 goal guy who, in a good year, gets 50 - 60 points. Personally, I'd predict (and, btw, this is only a personal prediction - not anything written in stone) that he'll continue to score more in the 40 point range.

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11-14-2004, 03:53 PM
  #86
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In a trade between buf/phi, phi need a hard-hitter defensive d-man to intimidate, i think McKee (although he is injury prone i think he will fit great in hitchs sytem), a pack based in ragnarsson could land him?
Pairings:
Desjardins-Pitkanen (Pits will learn a lot playing with rico)
Kim-Mckee
Markov-Seidenberg
with Timander and some of the phantoms (Jones, Slaney, Printz ...) as 7 and 8 defenseman.

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11-14-2004, 04:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin
the first one of these I have done, don't judge it too harshly please.

To Philly

Miro Satan

To Buffalo

Simon Gagne


First of all, yes I'm a sabres fan, but I'm also a Miro fan, he is my favourite sabre, and I don't want to see him leave my team. However, I can see sense in this trade, for both teams, here are my reasons.

To start with, I know Gagne is a player that Ruff and Regier are big fans off, and if you believe what you read, we have tried to get him a number of times.

Although we lose the spearhead of our attack and his immense scoring ability, we get a great player in return. A young guy who is more in line with the future of the team, and we reduce our payroll {Buffalo IS a small market team, and despite Golisano's investment, we are still not well off money wise}. Its contract year for Miro also, and I'm not sure he will stay around after that, and to lose him through UFA would be really bad. I would like to see Gagne play with Briere too... maybe they could make a new French connection with Dumont....?

On the other hand, Philly get a guy they need IMO, he could be the missing piece in their team, the high scoring winger. I know if there is a salary cap there is no chance, but as their payroll is high anyway, they may as well go the extra mile to get the cup. They are a team built to challenge NOW, rather than later.

Personally I would do this trade, what do you guys think? Fair? Or does one side need to give up more?


**** NO!

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11-14-2004, 08:24 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
I remember Hecht hitting Gagne and watching Gagne turtle and grapple, just pretending he was fighting.

That fight?
Both these scenarios are retardedly false.

Gagne and Hect got wrapped up and fell over, neither should have gotten FM's. Neither landed a punch, neither turtled, neither beat the crap out of each other. Just because Pizza made a dumb statement, doesn't mean you have to come back and make an equally stupid one.

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11-14-2004, 08:30 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galiza_Rules
In a trade between buf/phi, phi need a hard-hitter defensive d-man to intimidate, i think McKee (although he is injury prone i think he will fit great in hitchs sytem), a pack based in ragnarsson could land him?
Pairings:
Desjardins-Pitkanen (Pits will learn a lot playing with rico)
Kim-Mckee
Markov-Seidenberg
with Timander and some of the phantoms (Jones, Slaney, Printz ...) as 7 and 8 defenseman.
McKee's trade value, even with all the recent difficulties, is higher than that.

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11-14-2004, 08:36 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hecht is what he is. He is a decent third line forward who can step up to the six when he is hot. And, that is about it.
.
over the last five years gagne has averaged 50 pts while hecht has averaged 40. gagne has played in 20 more games. to say hecht is a decent third liner while gagne is in another league is just being a stat monger. not taking into consideration who they have played with in their careers and the fact that hecht just had his breakout season at 27 is a little unfair. simon gagne is a scorer. hecht is a complete player. id take hecht over gagne most days of the week.

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11-14-2004, 08:47 PM
  #91
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Sorry, my friend, but it is you who is playing games with numbers here. Gagne missed most of the season before last with a major injury, and he was at his best last season until he fully recovered. Basing most of your estimate of his performance on those last two seasons is more than a little unfair.

But, if you want to play games with numbers, consider this:

Gagne's first three seasons he scored 80 goals.
Hecht scored 38 in that time.

Gagne's best season was 33 goals and 66 points.
Hecht's best season was 52 points. Best goal total was 19.

Gagne has scored 45 points or more every year he has been in the NHL
except his injury year. Hecht has scored at that level once.

Gagne has 4 20 goal seasons in the last 5 years. Hecht has none.

And, to consider the "Hecht is a playmaker not a goal scorer arguement":
Gagne has 3 seasons with 28 assists or more. Hecht has one.

Gagne is superior to Hecht in every facet of the game. Hecht is simply not in his league.

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11-14-2004, 09:18 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Sorry, my friend, but it is you who is playing games with numbers here. Gagne missed most of the season before last with a major injury, and he was at his best last season until he fully recovered. Basing most of your estimate of his performance on those last two seasons is more than a little unfair.

But, if you want to play games with numbers, consider this:

Gagne's first three seasons he scored 80 goals.
Hecht scored 38 in that time.

Gagne's best season was 33 goals and 66 points.
Hecht's best season was 52 points. Best goal total was 19.

Gagne has scored 45 points or more every year he has been in the NHL
except his injury year. Hecht has scored at that level once.

Gagne has 4 20 goal seasons in the last 5 years. Hecht has none.

And, to consider the "Hecht is a playmaker not a goal scorer arguement":
Gagne has 3 seasons with 28 assists or more. Hecht has one.

Gagne is superior to Hecht in every facet of the game. Hecht is simply not in his league.
what league is that? the EA Sports league?

hecht is better: defensively, checking, playing along the boards, controlling the puck, physically, on face offs, as a leader. their is no argument from me over gagne superiority as a goal scorer. and gagne is a very good playmaker too...but no better or worse than hecht.


and i wasnt making an estimation. over the last five years gagne has played 354 games and hecht has played 333. gagne averaged 22.6 goals and 26.4 assists. hecht averaged 14.6 goals and 24.6 assists. basically 50 pts and 40 pts respectively.

i jumped into this gagne/hecht debate late, but if the debate was over trade value, gagne's is much much higher than hecht's. if it was about talent, gagne is much more offensively talented, but not nearly the complete player that hecht is rounding into. and if it was about value to their respective teams? well thats always bias

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11-14-2004, 09:31 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
what league is that? the EA Sports league?

hecht is better: defensively, checking, playing along the boards, controlling the puck, physically, on face offs, as a leader. their is no argument from me over gagne superiority as a goal scorer. and gagne is a very good playmaker too...but no better or worse than hecht.


and i wasnt making an estimation. over the last five years gagne has played 354 games and hecht has played 333. gagne averaged 22.6 goals and 26.4 assists. hecht averaged 14.6 goals and 24.6 assists. basically 50 pts and 40 pts respectively.

i jumped into this gagne/hecht debate late, but if the debate was over trade value, gagne's is much much higher than hecht's. if it was about talent, gagne is much more offensively talented, but not nearly the complete player that hecht is rounding into. and if it was about value to their respective teams? well thats always bias
Gagne has out produced Hecht, and if Hecht is so good at the things you say, he would be closer to him in terms of production. I don't know how you can say he is a better leader, have you ever been in the dressing room or on the ice?

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11-14-2004, 09:46 PM
  #94
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Gagne has out produced Hecht, and if Hecht is so good at the things you say, he would be closer to him in terms of production. I don't know how you can say he is a better leader, have you ever been in the dressing room or on the ice?
alot of those aspects of hecht's game dont translate on the stat sheet, unless you want to look at his +/- of +17 last year. Hecht has worn the A on his jersey, and is always in to stick up for his mates.

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11-14-2004, 10:06 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
alot of those aspects of hecht's game dont translate on the stat sheet, unless you want to look at his +/- of +17 last year. Hecht has worn the A on his jersey, and is always in to stick up for his mates.
Hecht is more physical than Gagne, and that is about the only thing he does better.

Hecht is basically an OK third line winger who bangs in maybe 15 - 20 goals a year. Gagne is a top line winger who can get at least 25 - 30, maybe more.

Gagne is one of the top young wingers in the game. Hecht is not even one of the top third line forwards in the game.

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11-14-2004, 10:08 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
hecht is better: defensively, checking, playing along the boards, controlling the puck, physically, on face offs, as a leader. their is no argument from me over gagne superiority as a goal scorer. and gagne is a very good playmaker too...but no better or worse than hecht.
A) I'm going to disagree that Hect is better than Gagne defensivly. Gagne is the Flyers best defensize forward.

B) Gagne isn't a center, so who cares about their face off abilities.

C) As one of the youngest players on his team, it's no suprise Gagne has yet to take a leadership role. According to Hitch, that is going to change when the NHL starts up again, along with Gagne moving up to the top line.

D) So basically, all you've provided is that Hect is more physical, and I don't necessarily agree with that at all either, but even so, that would not be enough to make him a more complete player.

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Old
11-14-2004, 10:19 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galiza_Rules
In a trade between buf/phi, phi need a hard-hitter defensive d-man to intimidate, i think McKee (although he is injury prone i think he will fit great in hitchs sytem), a pack based in ragnarsson could land him?
Pairings:
Desjardins-Pitkanen (Pits will learn a lot playing with rico)
Kim-Mckee
Markov-Seidenberg
with Timander and some of the phantoms (Jones, Slaney, Printz ...) as 7 and 8 defenseman.


To take a line from Doug and Steve Butabi...

Yes..........NO!

That's a horrible trade unless your Bob Clarke.

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11-14-2004, 11:44 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hecht is more physical than Gagne, and that is about the only thing he does better.

Hecht is basically an OK third line winger who bangs in maybe 15 - 20 goals a year. Gagne is a top line winger who can get at least 25 - 30, maybe more.

Gagne is one of the top young wingers in the game. Hecht is not even one of the top third line forwards in the game.
Hecht is far more than an "OK third line winger," Darth. Far more.



Incidentially I think you're overrating Gagne a bit too. I've always thought there's a kind of love-hate relationship between him and the HF posters. Guess maybe he's at one of his pinnacles right now.

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Old
11-15-2004, 12:21 AM
  #99
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
To take a line from Doug and Steve Butabi...

Yes..........NO!

That's a horrible trade unless your Bob Clarke.
LOL. I always loved your fiestyness, DB48.

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Old
11-15-2004, 12:24 AM
  #100
Jeff Goldblum
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Hecht is a first liner IMO. Injuries have held him back, but he produces when healthy. Gagne a 2nd liner with untapped potential.

PS: Ruckus, thats the best line in all of Sealab

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