On the Isles, they need 2-3 of the types of players the Leafs have. And they will have a hard time adding these players at a respectable price, so again, how can they possibly improve?
The closer we get to 2015 with complete uncertainty, the harder it will be to improve at all. So, I think the answer to that question is, basically, we can't.
The only trouble with paying 5m to PAP is that the contract will leave the lot as a liability, and it could the few quality players on the Isles making little more (JT) or less.
sid-the-bleepin'-kid.....showing up at inopportune times! shouldn't you be planning the "can sid win the art ross this year" thread that will likely start after 87's second shift this week?
I give you credit for the short-handed goals point....but I made the "sustainable" point many times all last year, as well as comments on Moulson and Tavares. Was dead wrong on Parenteau though
Grabner's kinda like a pond-hockey player on the Islanders. He hovers around the neutral zone and bolts like lightning at the hint of a turnover. That's probably not a sustainable strategy for a team that is battling for a playoff spot.
This year was a bit of an anomaly since the Isles were pretty much out of the playoffs by mid November (incredible when you think about it - given the point system especially).
So there's no risk to playing that way.
It remains to be seen if that style of play and that impact is sustainable over 82 games, especially when they matter more. We're ALL excited about Grabner, make no mistake. He's electrifying and the most fun-to-watch player on the Island since Lafontaine, maybe Ziggy. But I'm not convinced Grabner can sustain this play over a full season, in tough games. I'm optimistic, for sure, but I'd feel better if he can hit 30+ goals again next year.
I was more convinced Moulson could replicate 30 goals, mostly because of HOW HE SCORES, not so much the how many. On Grabner, my hockey brain finds it hard to believe a player can continue to get 3-4 breakaways a game (although he seems to keep doing it, miraculously)
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull
not ready to believe that just yet.
Grabner's really caught teams by surprise and he's had an incredible year, but in a supporting role. He never was the "go-to" guy, he wasn't a top minute guy and his goals were generated on rushes and defensive breakdowns.
That type of offensive game is sporadic and difficult to sustain. Teams can/will adjust to him and it'll make it tougher for him. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he'll even be able to score 30 next year.
I'm a Grabner fan (who isn't). I questioned his game when I first saw him play because he was so erratic and unpredictable out there, lost at times, like Tambellini.
But suddenly he started "clicking" (I think in LARGE part to Nielsen) and his confidence skyrocketed.
His EXPLOSIVE speed is very close to Pavel Bure. In fact, his first two steps might be the fastest I've ever seen in hockey. When you consider how much faster the game is today, for Grabner to be able to literally blow past NHL defenders with such ease in truly remarkable. I'm not sure how to defend that. Next year will be interesting.
Still, I see Grabner as an incredibly dangerous 2nd/3rd liner more than a 1st line player. It's more a style of play and where he's effective on the ice than pure hockey sense and skills. Not sure if I'm making myself clear on the difference.
For example, I see Tavares as being (BY FAR) the best offensive player on the team. His ability to work the corners, spot players, hit the tape of the stick in scoring position, battle for loose pucks around the crease - a completely different game than Grabner but far more effective and sustainable over a season. Not explosive, just effective.
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Sidney the Kidney
08-20-2011, 12:49 PM
I'm always leery about players who score a lot of SHG to boost their overall total, simply because I don't think it's realistic to assume a player can score that many SHG every season.
Grabner scored 6 shorthanded goals last season, which boosted him from a 28 goal man to his 34 goal total. If he doesn't replicate his SHG success, then he's got to make up those extra goals somewhere.
Jordan Staal had a similar rookie season, in which his goal total was inflated by his SHG. He scored 29 goals as an 18 year old, which is really impressive, with 7 of them coming shorthanded. Staal hasn't come close to matching his 7 shorthanded goals in a season since then, and coincidentally, he hasn't come close to matching his 29 goals either.
But only {MOD EDIT} with too much free time actually look up older posts to make a meaningless point on a message board
Last edited by Homeland Security: 03-14-2012 at 01:47 PM.
Reason: EDITED
Also I really don't understand why people think Moulson wouldn't get 1st line minutes or PP time on any other team, this guy is about to have his third consecutive 30 goal season. I think we tend to undervalue some players on our team because the rest of our team is brutal, and that is what really accounts for us losing.
Those 12 in my opinion are clearly better than Moulson, then there's a lot of others you can argue for being better than Moulson. Let's not also forget that Moulson has played with JT pretty much his whole as an Islander.
Those 12 in my opinion are clearly better than Moulson, then there's a lot of others you can argue for being better than Moulson. Let's not also forget that Moulson has played with JT pretty much his whole as an Islander.
At the same time, it's only really been this season that we've seen 'the beast' JT can be. It's not like saying Moulson's been lining up with Richards or Thornton or Sedin or Toews, etc. his first three seasons.
One way or the other, it's pretty impressive that Moulson has 30+ goals in each of his first three seasons in the NHL. Not many players do that.
What's interesting is that as JT has evolved, Moulson's assist numbers have grown, despite doing nothing more in this department than he had in his seasons before. In other words, his normal passes or 'tips in front of the net' are being honored more by JT's abilities, although I'd even say that a number of his assists have come on goals by PAP, Okposo or a Dman.
Parenteau:
Do the Isles find a way to replace his 65+ points from this season? Do the Isles, who are severely lacking players with offensive creativity, find other players who can provide that element, much less as a righty shooting player? Would Snow even attempt to bring in someone to do this or is he more inclined to sign a fringe NHLer or two who MIGHT pull a Parenteau? Or would this franchise simply look from 'within' to hope that offense can be replaced by several youngins?
You ALL know where this is going. Like PAP or not, if the team does not retain him, it is not replacing his offense, much less upgrading on him.
Basta.
Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 03-15-2012 at 06:20 AM.
PA is decent defensively, very good-great in the neutral zone, very good in the offensive zone. Makes players around him better.
Moulson is poor defensively, horrible in the neutral zone, very good below the hash marks when someone feeds him the puck, makes others around him worse because he's a non factor for 70% of the ice surface.
I really hate Matt Moulsons game. He needs to be on the 2nd line. Hell I wouldn't even be upset if they traded him. Ugh, I hate that guys game so much.
With that said, MM is a legit 30 goal scorer, so he clearly isn't as awful as I make him out to be. But if given the choice between PAP & MM, I take PAP every day of the week.
To use a baseball analogy, Moulson is the home run slugger National League) who can't field worth beans, so you you stick him someplace (usually left field) where he can be tolerated for his one trick.
It is worth trying to get Moulson to improve the rest of his game, become more complete, but it would take commitment on his part to upgrade his skating and to play the body. His value to the line and to the team would rise incrementally.
At the same time, it's only really been this season that we've seen 'the beast' JT can be. It's not like saying Moulson's been lining up with Richards or Thornton or Sedin or Toews, etc. his first three seasons.
One way or the other, it's pretty impressive that Moulson has 30+ goals in each of his first three seasons in the NHL. Not many players do that.
What's interesting is that as JT has evolved, Moulson's assist numbers have grown, despite doing nothing more in this department than he had in his seasons before. In other words, his normal passes or 'tips in front of the net' are being honored more by JT's abilities, although I'd even say that a number of his assists have come on goals by PAP, Okposo or a Dman.
Parenteau: Do the Isles find a way to replace his 65+ points from this season? Do the Isles, who are severely lacking players with offensive creativity, find other players who can provide that element, much less as a righty shooting player? Would Snow even attempt to bring in someone to do this or is he more inclined to sign a fringe NHLer or two who MIGHT pull a Parenteau? Or would this franchise simply look from 'within' to hope that offense can be replaced by several youngins?
You ALL know where this is going. Like PAP or not, if the team does not retain him, it is not replacing his offense, much less upgrading on him.
Basta.
Okposo would get 65 points on that line. I think he's got something like 17pts in 18 games while playing with Tavares, and NOT on the PP or 4on4 in OT.
So would Bailey.
Tavares GENERATES all the offense...Moulson and Parenteau are byproducts of Tavares. Not completely, both Moulson and Parenteau have proven to be capable players, but they aren't 30+ goal guys and 60+ pts guys without Tavares.
Just like Teddy Purcell in Tampa
The Isles don't need to "replace" the points....the points are a byproduct of ONE PLAYER.
They need another player who can GENERATE offense.
Grabner did that for half a year, last year.
Okposo would get 65 points on that line. I think he's got something like 17pts in 18 games while playing with Tavares, and NOT on the PP or 4on4 in OT.
So would Bailey.
POSSIBLE - in Okposo's case.
You might be right there. He'd be the most logical guy to assume Parenteau's spot, but he'd surely have his difficulties hitting the 60 point range unless he piles up boatloads of assists simply by handing Tavares the puck and then watching him dance through everyone, a phase that could set in as soon as next season. He's spent three seasons showing us a great deal of inconsistency and phases of extreme trepidity/trepidness with the puck. Big dips in confidence as well.
Bailey - I've wanted to see him with JT ever since Gordon tried him on the wing two seasons ago. Maybe some coach will at some point, but it's like one thing that has NEVER been tried.
I don't think we've seen it once. The only time these guys are on the ice together is during warm-ups.
There's much about his game this year, but as of right now, this is his lowest point total as a pro!
Quote:
Tavares GENERATES all the offense...Moulson and Parenteau are byproducts of Tavares.
Not true. Moulson to a great degree, but Parenteau carries the puck as much as Tavares and knows when to dish it off more maturely than JT does (who still has his tendency to wanna do a lot alone).
This is why I think Parenteau can be 50+ point player on a second line as well if there's a player there with some modicum of goal-scoring prowess (i.e. not just Grabner or Nielsen).
In addition, Parenteau has a skillset on the PP (as an important righty component) that no-one else on the team can provide. I used to think Kyle might be able to provide that, but I just don't see him ever possessing that coolness and wherewithall.
Quote:
Just like Teddy Purcell in Tampa
The Isles don't need to "replace" the points....the points are a byproduct of ONE PLAYER.
Ironically, I remember really hoping the Isles would grab Purcell back when he was at U of Maine.
Anyhow, I see what you're getting at, but I disagree slightly with the generation concept. JT, Parenteau and Streit are the GENERATORS of offense on this team. JT is the best of the three. Neither of the other two live from him the way i.e. Moulson does, or other players would.
Little happens without those three actively generating on a regular basis.
Remove one and there is
A) no visibly viable replacement from within
B) hardly anyone available AND LIKELY FOR ISLANDERVILLE on the UFA market who could replace that generating quality
C) no-one of this ilk available per trade who won't cost a pretty penny
Personally, I have little faith in Parenteau being resigned or another valid NHLer who can generate that offense being brought in. I'm more inclined to believe that Snow WILL bring in Strome and Petrov and WILL look for another fringe NHLer or two who score big in the minors.
Can't believe anything else would happen. After last summer, I'm convinced that this is the routine we're seeing until 2015.
My only beacon of hope is that things on the cap front have to change one way or the other. Is it time to dish out Ovechkin money to Suter and Parise???
Or does Snow think JT and Moulson put up 150 points between them next season regardless of who is running shotgun AND that Bailey, Okie and Grabner each get to 45 point land with much more solid +/- numbers to boot AND that Niederreiter suddenly collects 15 goals and 30 points WHILE kids like Ullstrom, Cizikas, Strome, Petrov and maybe Rakhshani come in and do more in a two-way manner in lower line roles than the Reasoners, Pandolfos, Rolstons, Konopkas and Wallaces of the world could ever do?
By golly, I think he does!
And if he does, then he better be highly aware that he needs more Dmen who can obtain the puck and make a quick, smooth first pass to get the game going in the other direction.
Ohhhh, I forgot, that's what de Haan, Ness and Donovan are supposed to do next season, eh?
Even if he feels that way, he's not hitting the cap floor with that plan, right?
You might be right there. He'd be the most logical guy to assume Parenteau's spot, but he'd surely have his difficulties hitting the 60 point range unless he piles up boatloads of assists simply by handing Tavares the puck and then watching him dance through everyone, a phase that could set in as soon as next season. He's spent three seasons showing us a great deal of inconsistency and phases of extreme trepidity/trepidness with the puck. Big dips in confidence as well.
Bailey - I've wanted to see him with JT ever since Gordon tried him on the wing two seasons ago. Maybe some coach will at some point, but it's like one thing that has NEVER been tried.
I don't think we've seen it once. The only time these guys are on the ice together is during warm-ups.
There's much about his game this year, but as of right now, this is his lowest point total as a pro!
Not true. Moulson to a great degree, but Parenteau carries the puck as much as Tavares and knows when to dish it off more maturely than JT does (who still has his tendency to wanna do a lot alone).
This is why I think Parenteau can be 50+ point player on a second line as well if there's a player there with some modicum of goal-scoring prowess (i.e. not just Grabner or Nielsen).
In addition, Parenteau has a skillset on the PP (as an important righty component) that no-one else on the team can provide. I used to think Kyle might be able to provide that, but I just don't see him ever possessing that coolness and wherewithall.
Ironically, I remember really hoping the Isles would grab Purcell back when he was at U of Maine.
Anyhow, I see what you're getting at, but I disagree slightly with the generation concept. JT, Parenteau and Streit are the GENERATORS of offense on this team. JT is the best of the three. Neither of the other two live from him the way i.e. Moulson does, or other players would.
Little happens without those three actively generating on a regular basis.
Remove one and there is
A) no visibly viable replacement from within
B) hardly anyone available AND LIKELY FOR ISLANDERVILLE on the UFA market who could replace that generating quality
C) no-one of this ilk available per trade who won't cost a pretty penny
Personally, I have little faith in Parenteau being resigned or another valid NHLer who can generate that offense being brought in. I'm more inclined to believe that Snow WILL bring in Strome and Petrov and WILL look for another fringe NHLer or two who score big in the minors.
Can't believe anything else would happen. After last summer, I'm convinced that this is the routine we're seeing until 2015.
My only beacon of hope is that things on the cap front have to change one way or the other. Is it time to dish out Ovechkin money to Suter and Parise???
Or does Snow think JT and Moulson put up 150 points between them next season regardless of who is running shotgun AND that Bailey, Okie and Grabner each get to 45 point land with much more solid +/- numbers to boot AND that Niederreiter suddenly collects 15 goals and 30 points WHILE kids like Ullstrom, Cizikas, Strome, Petrov and maybe Rakhshani come in and do more in a two-way manner in lower line roles than the Reasoners, Pandolfos, Rolstons, Konopkas and Wallaces of the world could ever do?
By golly, I think he does!
And if he does, then he better be highly aware that he needs more Dmen who can obtain the puck and make a quick, smooth first pass to get the game going in the other direction.
Ohhhh, I forgot, that's what de Haan, Ness and Donovan are supposed to do next season, eh?
Even if he feels that way, he's not hitting the cap floor with that plan, right?
Next you are going to tell us that there is no Easter Bunny, right?
