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03-15-2012, 10:31 AM
  #301
The Gnome
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
The way I see it is Stajan now knows there is no way he can lose his job, bringing back all of the confidence that Sutter has eroded over the past season and a half.

We're talking about the coach who puts 39% Moss in an important defensive faceoff situation over 51% Stajan. But yeah, that was good for Stajan's development and confidence.
I think you neglect to look at just how bad Stajan was before this season. I didn't see to many people on these boards who at the start of the year even wanted Stajan on our roster.

Credit to Stajan for pushing for a final roster spot. But I credit some of that to Sutter who probably told him if he wants to play in the NHL this is the way he has to play.

It's black and white IMO. The difference between Stajan pre-2012 vs. Stajan 2012.

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03-15-2012, 10:34 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
I think you neglect to look at just how bad Stajan was before this season. I didn't see to many people on these boards who at the start of the year even wanted Stajan on our roster.

Credit to Stajan for pushing for a final roster spot. But I credit some of that to Sutter who probably told him if he wants to play in the NHL this is the way he has to play.

It's black and white IMO. The difference between Stajan pre-2012 vs. Stajan 2012.
I think you neglect to look at just how good Stajan looked before this season, before his shoulder injury. Whatever. Most around here have extremely short memories...

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03-15-2012, 10:39 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
I think you neglect to look at just how good Stajan looked before this season, before his shoulder injury. Whatever. Most around here have extremely short memories...
I agree. I thought he looked alright before the Marc Staal hit and since then was the Stajan that we had all been crapping on.

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03-15-2012, 10:44 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
I think you neglect to look at just how good Stajan looked before this season, before his shoulder injury. Whatever. Most around here have extremely short memories...
I don't think he looked anywhere as good (pre Staal hit) as he looks right now.

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03-15-2012, 10:51 AM
  #305
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I think Stajan playing in that grind it out role (see: doghouse) this season has helped him incredibly. There's no denying he had chemistry with Tangs and Iggy, but he's shown alot more fire this run around, he's fighting and battling for those pucks, he's going to the tough areas.

It's also nice having a center up there winning the draws, hope he can keep up the great playing, if he can we have a chance at the playoffs.

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03-15-2012, 11:15 AM
  #306
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I think Stajan playing in that grind it out role (see: doghouse) this season has helped him incredibly. There's no denying he had chemistry with Tangs and Iggy, but he's shown alot more fire this run around, he's fighting and battling for those pucks, he's going to the tough areas.

It's also nice having a center up there winning the draws, hope he can keep up the great playing, if he can we have a chance at the playoffs.
Yeah this is what I'm trying to say. Sutter may have not shown to confidence to play him in a bigger role, but to me he never really deserved it. Old Stajan would have never won as many puck battles as he did against SJ the other night.

FO% is great, but outside of that he was pretty much useless and Sutter knew that. We had better options for the top 6 and I don't blame Sutter for not trying him there earlier. Now He plays fearless, turns over pucks in the neutral zone, and wins most battles. He's never been that type of player until this year.

IMO, Stajan has really turned a corner since the Bourque/Cammy trade. At that point you had Cammy showing some chemistry down the middle on the top line and Jokinen on the OMG line. Stajan is not going to break into that top 6 with his history.

If people can't give Sutter some credit for rebuilding Stajan then that blows me away. It's pretty obvious Stajan is looking like a prototypical Sutter player these days. Add the fact that he has never looked like that at any other point in his career.

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03-15-2012, 11:24 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
Yeah this is what I'm trying to say. Sutter may have not shown to confidence to play him in a bigger role, but to me he never really deserved it. Old Stajan would have never won as many puck battles as he did against SJ the other night.

FO% is great, but outside of that he was pretty much useless and Sutter knew that. We had better options for the top 6 and I don't blame Sutter for not trying him there earlier. Now He plays fearless, turns over pucks in the neutral zone, and wins most battles. He's never been that type of player until this year.

IMO, Stajan has really turned a corner since the Bourque/Cammy trade. At that point you had Cammy showing some chemistry down the middle on the top line and Jokinen on the OMG line. Stajan is not going to break into that top 6 with his history.

If people can't give Sutter some credit for rebuilding Stajan then that blows me away. It's pretty obvious Stajan is looking like a prototypical Sutter player these days. Add the fact that he has never looked like that at any other point in his career.
Sorry this isn't true. I agree Sutter has really helped Stajan become physical and not shy away from the dirty areas. But Stajan has always been a great playmaker it is why we traded for him. The year after we brought him in he was the top scorer on the Tangs-Stajan-Iggy line but Iggy wasn't scoring and everyone blamed it on Stajan as it was some how his fault. Clearly Iggy is a slow starter and people were just looking for a scape goat but by the time Iggy started to turn it a round Stajan got hit by Staal and didn't look the same for the rest of the year. People love to claim that Stajan was never good but he was/is a very good playmaker with good hockey IQ and a very good defensive game.

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03-15-2012, 11:46 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Sorry this isn't true. I agree Sutter has really helped Stajan become physical and not shy away from the dirty areas. But Stajan has always been a great playmaker it is why we traded for him. The year after we brought him in he was the top scorer on the Tangs-Stajan-Iggy line but Iggy wasn't scoring and everyone blamed it on Stajan as it was some how his fault. Clearly Iggy is a slow starter and people were just looking for a scape goat but by the time Iggy started to turn it a round Stajan got hit by Staal and didn't look the same for the rest of the year. People love to claim that Stajan was never good but he was/is a very good playmaker with good hockey IQ and a very good defensive game.
It depends what you place more value on when accessing a players contribution to the team. To me Stajan is a mediocre talent in terms of playmaking, defensive play, and has an average hockey IQ. That doesn't cut it in a top six role in today's NHL. If you have a player with an average skillset (and that is exactly what Stajan has) playing in your top six, they better damn well bring more to the table then just their mediocre play. They need a desire to win puck battles, and be fearless when going into the boards against larger players. They need to do, in Sutter's words "all the small things" to win games. That is the difference between Pre 2012 Stajan and 2012 Stajan. His skill level has not improved in the slightest (I agree). But his overall game has shown clear signs of improvement because of his new found work ethic.

The question now, is can he keep it up?

So when I say Stajan was pretty much useless. I meant what I said. His work ethic was not good enough for a bottom six role and his skill level was not enough for the top six. Making him a waste of space no matter where you plugged him into the lineup. Now, with his average level of skill and vastly improved effort level he can contribute to the team anywhere in the lineup.

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03-15-2012, 11:56 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
It depends what you place more value on when accessing a players contribution to the team. To me Stajan is a mediocre talent in terms of playmaking, defensive play, and has an average hockey IQ. That doesn't cut it in a top six role in today's NHL. If you have a player with an average skillset (and that is exactly what Stajan has) playing in your top six, they better damn well bring more to the table then just their mediocre play. They need a desire to win puck battles, and be fearless when going into the boards against larger players. They need to do, in Sutter's words "all the small things" to win games. That is the difference between Pre 2012 Stajan and 2012 Stajan. His skill level has not improved in the slightest (I agree). But his overall game has shown clear signs of improvement because of his new found work ethic.

The question now, is can he keep it up?

So when I say Stajan was pretty much useless. I meant what I said. His work ethic was not good enough for a bottom six role and his skill level was not enough for the top six. Making him a waste of space no matter where you plugged him into the lineup. Now, with his average level of skill and vastly improved effort level he can contribute to the team anywhere in the lineup.
I don't agree with you at all but you are entitled to your own opinion. The entire year Stajan has made great pass and had TKO or Jackman miss the half open net by a mile. Stajan is a very good passer he has a very poor shot.

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03-15-2012, 12:14 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I don't agree with you at all but you are entitled to your own opinion. The entire year Stajan has made great pass and had TKO or Jackman miss the half open net by a mile. Stajan is a very good passer he has a very poor shot.
Concepts can get lost in words, when I see you write "very good passer" I disagree (but maybe we are closer in opinion then what we write). I would say Stajan is an above average, or good passer. But to me it was not enough for him to contribute in the top six. His added dimensions that I have mentioned numerous times are what is allowing him to contribute in a top six role IMO. I give credit to Sutter for helping Stajan realize what he had to do to be successful in the NHL when you have an average skillset.

Should Sutter have tried him on the top line earlier? Yeah, probably. But it's pretty hard when you have as many top 9 forwards on your team as CGY does. It made sense to everyone at the time that Cammy was #1 and Jokinen was #2.

Now that Stajan has taken that #1 role and run with it, it doesn't mean everyone should crap on Sutter's head for not trying it earlier. He felt, and most fans as well, that Cammy and Jokinen deserved top 6 time more then Stajan.

So you can look back and say yeah Sutter should have tried him earlier. But would Stajan really be working out on the top line without Sutter's influence? I don't think so. That is the point I'm trying to make.

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03-15-2012, 12:19 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
Concepts can get lost in words, when I see you write "very good passer" I disagree (but maybe we are closer in opinion then what we write). I would say Stajan is an above average, or good passer. But to me it was not enough for him to contribute in the top six. His added dimensions that I have mentioned numerous times are what is allowing him to contribute in a top six role IMO. I give credit to Sutter for helping Stajan realize what he had to do to be successful in the NHL when you have an average skillset.

Should Sutter have tried him on the top line earlier? Yeah, probably. But it's pretty hard when you have as many top 9 forwards on your team as CGY does. It made sense to everyone at the time that Cammy was #1 and Jokinen was #2.

Now that Stajan has taken that #1 role and run with it, it doesn't mean everyone should crap on Sutter's head for not trying it earlier. He felt, and most fans as well, that Cammy and Jokinen deserved top 6 time more then Stajan.

So you can look back and say yeah Sutter should have tried him earlier. But would Stajan really be working out on the top line without Sutter's influence? I don't think so. That is the point I'm trying to make.
Thats where I disagree he already had worked on the top line it was Iggy last year that started slow as per usual and everyone blamed Stajan but he was on pace for ~55 points which is what we expected from him. The hit from Staal really effected him which where I give Sutter credit for making Stajan more physical and to get over the hit. But Stajan had worked in the top 6 already its not as if Sutter took a fourth liner and made him into a top 6 guy.

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03-15-2012, 12:22 PM
  #312
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Thats where I disagree he already had worked on the top line it was Iggy last year that started slow as per usual and everyone blamed Stajan but he was on pace for ~55 points which is what we expected from him. The hit from Staal really effected him which where I give Sutter credit for making Stajan more physical and to get over the hit. But Stajan had worked in the top 6 already its not as if Sutter took a fourth liner and made him into a top 6 guy.
But he's a better player now then he's ever been. He is more useful now on the top line, then he was before the Staal hit.

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03-15-2012, 12:29 PM
  #313
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But he's a better player now then he's ever been. He is more useful now on the top line, then he was before the Staal hit.
Yes we can certainly agree to that. I was arguing with saying he was useless and not a top 6 guy. He is a second line center but since Sutter has made him more physical and willing to go to the dirty areas he has looked much better as the top line center.

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