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Who gets blamed this year for all the late game collapses?

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Old
03-14-2012, 04:00 PM
  #26
Original Rob
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
I can't believe that people are actually saying that a late game collapse is because of an owner and GM. While Wang is obviously a horrible owner and people may not like Snow, the only person to be held accountable for the late collapses is Capuano. The team seems to have no problem taking 2-3 goal leads going into the third but they aren't prepared to finish the game strong. The person that can control this and stress the need to play a full 60 minutes is the coach. A good coach would make sure that the first time a team collapses with a 2+ goal lead in the third will be the last time. The coach is obviously not preparing his players to play a full 60 minutes.
The point is that without Wang, there is no Snow, and without those two doofuses, there is no Capuano. Cap shouldn't be coaching in the NHL in the first place so that is why the blame is not put on him first and foremost.

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Old
03-14-2012, 04:12 PM
  #27
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1. Wang
2. Snow: Cannot bring in a real coach, can't sign free agents, and extremely passive with trading. I don't like the way he builds his team. IMO a successful team has a very good bottom 6 that is physical and can play responsible defense, along with chipping in a few points. I see nobody on the bottom 6 that can fill all of those needs. Although Nielsen and Bailey could both be effective as 3rd liners (Bailey being on the wing). Signing crap veterans that can't do anything productive.
3. Capuano: Being an awful coach, playing players who do not deserve the ice time (Rolston). Lack of flare, cannot get Okposo or Grabner to preform. Lack of line mixing. Absolutely awful defensive system, we cannot get the puck out of the zone, and when we do it leads to a slow/sloppy transition.

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Old
03-14-2012, 04:39 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Agree with this for for most part, but the players get 0% of the blame?

They suck. Plain and simple. On OV's 2nd goal last night the D was a god damn mess. Same with his 1st actually. The players need to take at least 15% of the blame. You could have the best coaches in the game behind the bench and it won't make a lick of difference if the players don't execute.
I focused on the ownership/managing structure. The players are a product of how they are managed with a few exceptions.

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03-14-2012, 07:03 PM
  #29
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Short answer — everyone....

Long Answer —

The Owner: He has failed to get an arena deal done, and that has pushed he to spend less with the uncertainty. The same uncertainty helps keep top tier talent from considering LI as a possible destination (especially now since we have a growing good young core)

The GM: He has not be able to find a deal or is willing to make a deal perhaps to a fault, though I appreciate his patience to let young players develop — that is important. Where he is perhaps most at fault is in selecting Gordon and then Cappy as the coach.

The Coach: Cappy is not preparing this team properly. He reminds me of Rick Bowness. Everyone likes him — he's a "players coach" but the results are not there. The Isles need an NHL coach who can balance butt whipping and hand holding.

The Players: IT is far to easy to put all the blame on the coach, or the GM or the Owner. The Players — they must be held accountable. Striet is trying to do to much and coming off the injury has not been himself. Bailey and Okposo have been far to slow to start, and wildly inconsistent, though Bailey is actually been more productive over a longer stretch and seems to be finding a little more consistency. There are nights where KO disappears. Grabner is sophomore slumping, Neilsen is a reach as a 2nd line center. Tavares, Parenteau and Moulson have at times tried to do too much but they have carried the team more or less every night along with early goaltending by Montoya, and more recently Nabokov.

All in all it is win as a team and lose as a team.

Bottom line is that we are left wondering if this season and last season were not in some aspects "wasted" because coaching has been such a major issue.

BUT — we have to be careful of what we wish for as well. If they fire Cappy, I don't want Weight or Thompson. It MUST be a REAL coach — one of Therrien, Crawford, Hartley, Wilson — it can't be another bad choice.

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #30
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I think there's much more to focus on besides late game collapses. That is only one thing on the list of flaws within this organization right now.

These are my "blame percentages" if you will...
Wang 97%
Crapuano 2%
Snow 1%

(% = degrees if Butch Goring is reading this thread)

I don't even have to explain why Wang is to blame. The guy is a moron and should no longer be the owner of this team. He is a joke and is punishing the fans of this organization. He should go **** himself, plain and simple.

Capuano is not an NHL coach. I don't even think he should be an AHL coach at this point. He can't call a timeout at the right time, he can't pull the goalie at the right time, his team never fails to blow a lead, and his team never fails to get off to terrible starts. How many times have the Islanders suffered two or 3 goals in the first 5 minutes of the game? How many times have we gotten blown out 6-0, 5-1, etc. What the **** does this guy do in the locker room? He always says the same ******** game after game, loss after loss. If this guy is the coach next year I don't know what I'll do with myself.

People always say Snow could've done a better job with the money he had blah blah blah. While that might be true, this guy shouldn't be a GM in the first place. Yes, it still bothers me that Neil Smith isn't the GM right now and a backup goalie is. Snow's made some pretty good moves here and there, I can't really fault him for what's going on with this team right now, considering who his boss is.

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:33 PM
  #31
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Scott Gordon, because the Islanders are tired in the 3rd period.

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:41 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bauer Warrior View Post
When a business is performing horribly, the owner is responsible.
Guess you never watched Moneyball....

Art Howe was bucking Beane all the way even though he had a team he wanted fielded. I am not going to completely argue the historical voracity of the movie but Art Howe was responsible for the A's initial woes because he was bucking the GM's direction.

So i beg to differ...

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03-14-2012, 07:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipietro View Post
I think there's much more to focus on besides late game collapses. That is only one thing on the list of flaws within this organization right now.

These are my "blame percentages" if you will...
Wang 97%
Crapuano 2%
Snow 1%

(% = degrees if Butch Goring is reading this thread)

I don't even have to explain why Wang is to blame. The guy is a moron and should no longer be the owner of this team. He is a joke and is punishing the fans of this organization. He should go **** himself, plain and simple.

Capuano is not an NHL coach. I don't even think he should be an AHL coach at this point. He can't call a timeout at the right time, he can't pull the goalie at the right time, his team never fails to blow a lead, and his team never fails to get off to terrible starts. How many times have the Islanders suffered two or 3 goals in the first 5 minutes of the game? How many times have we gotten blown out 6-0, 5-1, etc. What the **** does this guy do in the locker room? He always says the same ******** game after game, loss after loss. If this guy is the coach next year I don't know what I'll do with myself.

People always say Snow could've done a better job with the money he had blah blah blah. While that might be true, this guy shouldn't be a GM in the first place. Yes, it still bothers me that Neil Smith isn't the GM right now and a backup goalie is. Snow's made some pretty good moves here and there, I can't really fault him for what's going on with this team right now, considering who his boss is.
So if Cappy doesn't even belong in the AHL why is he only getting 2% of the vote? Especially if there is the possibility that Snow wanted to keep him rather than Wang (please don't pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors and speculate Wang makes ALL the decisions). So if what you say about Cappy is true and if the norm is true that the GM hires the coach than you are completely contradicting your percentages. With that said my percentage falls this way:

40% Snow
60% Cappy

The reason I don't include Wang is simple.... there is nothing ANYONE can do about Wang as the owner of this team. It is HIS team. He BOUGHT them. He can do what he wants with them. Placing blame on Wang is like blaming the sun for a sun burn. Guess what, you need to stay out of the sun or take precaution. You can't remove the sun so stop trying. I am so tired of silly people even bothering to mention Wang in any of this. No other boards to I see struggling teams blame the owner as much as Islander fans. I'm surprised God is getting a percentage in these boards. Go look at another team that is piss poor and has been for years... Columbus... they aren't constantly blaming the owner. Grow up and wise up. Wang is not going anywhere until HE decides he wants to so let's focus on things HE and Snow can do to make the team better. First is to get an experienced NHL coach in here and start a real NHL assessment of who should stay and go....

If the new coach comes in and reports back about who belongs and who doesn't... and Wang finds out half the team shouldn't be in the NHL then he can fire Snow and get a proven GM in there. Right now I say it starts with Cappy because this crew has not had an experienced coach in here since Ted Nolan

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Old
03-14-2012, 08:37 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Guess you never watched Moneyball....

Art Howe was bucking Beane all the way even though he had a team he wanted fielded. I am not going to completely argue the historical voracity of the movie but Art Howe was responsible for the A's initial woes because he was bucking the GM's direction.

So i beg to differ...
So are you just offering an example or do you actually believe that Capuano is bucking the directions of the GM and, in effect, the Dear Leader himself? If the latter... then brother, ya still don't get it.

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Old
03-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #35
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#3. Snow

I like what Snow has done for the Isles, given his situation. I'm even quite happy that he didn't sign any of the so called "big" FA last summer. But i cannot for the life of me understand why Rolston & Mottau were on this team for so long, eating up a good amount of minutes, and taking away ice time for players like Ullstrom & Reese.

I get that Rolston was required for the salary cap, but man, just don't dress him. Keep him as a 13th forward.

#2. Capuano

Not much of a poster on this site, more of an "viewer". But i've red hundreds of criticism regarding Caps, i can honestly say i agree with everyone. But the part that irks me the most is i can't think of one positive move Capuano has made. I actually can't think of anything he's done. He just stands there. Around 10 goals scored against the Isles on the first shot , 9 third period blown leads, and 1 line adjustment, not involving injuries to show for it (P.A. swapping with K.O.). His most memorable move was that retarded t.o. against Detroit. With a 5-1 lead, and less then a minute to go, the moron sees a need. But blowing leads with a few minutes to go, nah!

I'm hoping the teams keeps blowing leads the rest of the year, just in hopes of them firing him.

#1. Wang

I pick Wang as my #1 problem this year because...well it's Wang! He's the biggest problem every year.

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Old
03-14-2012, 09:40 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
So if Cappy doesn't even belong in the AHL why is he only getting 2% of the vote? Especially if there is the possibility that Snow wanted to keep him rather than Wang (please don't pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors and speculate Wang makes ALL the decisions). So if what you say about Cappy is true and if the norm is true that the GM hires the coach than you are completely contradicting your percentages. With that said my percentage falls this way:

40% Snow
60% Cappy

The reason I don't include Wang is simple.... there is nothing ANYONE can do about Wang as the owner of this team. It is HIS team. He BOUGHT them. He can do what he wants with them. Placing blame on Wang is like blaming the sun for a sun burn. Guess what, you need to stay out of the sun or take precaution. You can't remove the sun so stop trying. I am so tired of silly people even bothering to mention Wang in any of this. No other boards to I see struggling teams blame the owner as much as Islander fans. I'm surprised God is getting a percentage in these boards. Go look at another team that is piss poor and has been for years... Columbus... they aren't constantly blaming the owner. Grow up and wise up. Wang is not going anywhere until HE decides he wants to so let's focus on things HE and Snow can do to make the team better. First is to get an experienced NHL coach in here and start a real NHL assessment of who should stay and go....

If the new coach comes in and reports back about who belongs and who doesn't... and Wang finds out half the team shouldn't be in the NHL then he can fire Snow and get a proven GM in there. Right now I say it starts with Cappy because this crew has not had an experienced coach in here since Ted Nolan
That is probably the most ridiculous analogy I've heard in a long time. Blaming Wang is like blaming the sun for a sun burn? The New York Islanders are a professional sports franchise. They are not a toy that some moron can buy and then proceed to completely mishandle and take advantage of. The Islanders are a business with fans and employees that benefit off eachother.

Your mentality is that we should all sit back and allow Wang to do whatever he wants because its HIS team? Should we put on "Wang" sunblock and "Wang" sunglasses before heading out the Coliseum as a precaution so the losses don't hurt so bad?

I have been a fan of this team for quite a while. I have also been a paying customer of this team for quite a while. I want to see a winning team, and this owner clearly does not intend to build one. "At least we're not getting killed out there" is not a response I want to hear from the "committed" owner of my favorite team.

You're refusing to criticize the owner simply because he is the owner and he can do what he wants. I'm sorry but that is pathetic.

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Old
03-14-2012, 09:44 PM
  #37
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My long-winded explanation for things already summed up in much less words.

  1. The owner: For not allotting a high enough budget to ice a competitive team.
  2. The GM: For not realizing the makeup of the team was a failure from the beginning. Even with a limited payroll, the mix could have been improved.
  3. The coach: For taking far too long to experiment with lines and never quite creating a proper mix of what he did have to work with.
  4. The players: For not improving even in a harsh environment. For finding ways to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, responsibility is highest at the top and lowest at the bottom.

Why does the owner have the greatest responsibility?
A higher payroll allows for greater ability to obtain the players the GM needs in order to build a fully functional team. Realistically, there is a bare minimum required to compete at a consistently high level and have some leeway for a reasonable amount of failure. The owner is directly responsible for the image of the franchise as a clown show and the state of our building ultimately falls upon the owner to fix. Even if he isn't the only party responsible, he has the most power within the organization to change our image and infrastructure.

Why is the GM next in line in terms of responsibility?
Operating at a fixed cost, still allows for a certain amount of personnel movement. The mix we went to war with sucked. We never changed the mix throughout the season. While the GM is shorthanded because of the owner, the GM still needs to understand the weaknesses of the team and try to improve upon them. Even with a fixed payroll, we didn't make moves during the season to change the makeup of the team, nor did we target players in the previous off-season to change the makeup of the team.

Why is the coach next to the bottom on the responsibility totem pole?

Because he can only work with what he has. He can request players, but only the GM and owner have the power to obtain them. The coach may not even have full control over how pieces of his roster move up and down between the AHL and the NHL squads. The coach can implement systems. He can reinforce his system by running practices and altering ice time and sitting players to provide rewards and punishment. However, he can't play out on the ice. His assistants can help with the coaching and practices, but they're not out on the ice. On-ice and off-ice coaching require leaders on and off the ice. Guys communicating with each other. Guys reacting to the changes in momentum and even individual plays. Veteran hockey players are required to even out the bumps in the schedule and add consistency to a team when younger players are inconsistent.

Why do the players get blamed the least?

Do I really have to get into the age and games played stuff again? Josh Bailey has played more games than 9 of our current crop of NHL forwards. He is 22 years of age. Frans Nielsen is our most seasoned top-9 forward - a vet of only 300+ NHL games. Every other veteran we've had didn't deserve to sniff the top-9 this year. None of our young forwards have ever had a veteran in their prime to play with. Not one. Our defense has a little more experience, but the entire team isn't built to deal with larger or more mobile teams. We rely on a 21 year old for our most consistent defense. Unfortunately, we often play large and more mobile teams within our division. The players can only do so much and are lacking in physical attributes to deal with these teams. Yes, some of the above players should have improved a bit more. Some of our streaks were pretty atrocious, but when the makeup of the team is built for failure, there's only so much you can blame any individual player.

Should we blame Grabner-Nielsen-KO for not being the counterattacking line they were last season? What changed? I'll argue that Grabner didn't finish or get enough shots on goal; Nielsen became even more afraid of the center of the ice and started making poor decisions in both ends of the ice; while KO doesn't finish enough (with checks or scoring goals.) 2/3s of the line is easily contained in the offensive zone. There's little net front presence. Only one player has ever finished well on the rush and he failed to do so this year. Sure, blame the players, but I'll argue that the line has always been a high risk line and would greatly benefit from a larger goal scoring center that drives to the net. (A type of player that would mesh well with many of our players. A type of player we don't have.)

Moulson-JT-PAP ??? Offensively, you can't ask for much more. However, this is yet another line that is easily contained by big and/or mobile squads. Yet, this line does most of its damage when it is already in the offensive zone. It's completely defused against certain squads. It is only through immense individual efforts that anything gets done against certain teams. Most often, it's the line's best player making the most out of very little time and space.

For most of the season, you couldn't put together anything worth looking at in the bottom-6. Our most effective lines have been filled with or mostly filled with rookies, or not truly designed for the role we expect of them.

The players take the least of the blame in my estimation. They're human. Most of them are very young and inexperienced who have never had the opportunity to play with a veteran in their prime. The rest of them are past their prime. The ones we **** on the most are quite frankly a product of their environment more than anything else.

To give you an idea of how low our payroll is right now, think about this:

Setting aside bonuses, do you guys know how low our payroll is right now for our forward group?

Taking our 13 most used forwards right now:
12,742,500 Base Salary
6,260,000 in total eligible bonuses (not stating which can no longer be achieved)
19,002,500 Base Salary + All eligible bonuses

Brad Richards: $2 million in salary + $10,000,000 signing bonus
=$12 million in total salary of which he received $10 million up front

The Rangers paid one player almost the entire amount of money we would automatically be due to pay almost our entire squad of forwards if we started the season with the current squad today. It's an extreme example, but it's pathetic that I can make this kind of example at all. Not to mention, our "average forward" is making at least 1/2 of the NHL average in base salary.

Another depressing page: http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

Seriously, look at that number. Look at how much less we're paying our players in comparison to the 2nd and 3rd from last teams. (~$10 million and ~$15 million respectively.)

We're getting what we're paying for right now. In a few years, we'll be better even with a lower payroll, but that's how long it will take. It literally will take 2-3 more years to build this team from the bottom up with incremental increases in pay for our older young forwards. A lot of suck for what is only guaranteed to be a "good team". We deserve a great one. We deserve better. Our suffering dictates it. Our history dictates it. Unfortunately, a lot of inside and outside forces are working against it.

,
Mitch


Last edited by mitchy22: 03-14-2012 at 09:57 PM. Reason: added a bit...you're shocked, I'm sure.
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Old
03-15-2012, 01:59 AM
  #38
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That one above is hysterical.

Can't blame Wang, the sun God Ra. The Mighty Apollo!

No, it's the mortals!


Now....if you go to a restaurant, and the chef is turning out bad food because the meat ordered is spoiled, the help is cheap, the veggies frozen, the stove is replaced by a microwave and the salad is wilted (CHEAP!), but the manager is TOLD by RA to order the cheap stuff......

Do you still go to RA's restaurant and complain or is Ra, holiest of all holy sun burning dieties, responsible for anything?

I stop going and turn that mother****** into a black hole - except RA worshippers still go so he will always burn.

Nothing changes because it's the 28th coach's fault in 13 years, the 3rd GM's fault but never, EVER is it the mighty RA's fault for scorching the fanbase with flaming **IT, is it?

Wang 100%
Snow 0%
Cappy 0%


Snow is not a GM. He's a backup whou should have been made a scout.
Cappy is not an NHL coach yet. He needs time in the minors with a successful track record (see: no one in Uniondale) before he earns jack.
Wang is a fool, a buffoon, a simpleton who hires bad/idiotic people for major roles and cheats fans of any joy. How those season tickets paying off? We hired an 11th grader to scout Europe because he have really good internet blog says RA, the sun burn giver.


Unreal. Where does the buck stop? Apparently Snow? Are those the rules? Do whatever you want and the GM takes the fall? WHO HIRED THIS INEPT MAN AS GM?

Can we not go to games?

Can the customer not go to the restaurant where the manager and chef are forced to serve rotten turdules? Can the owner take the fall and people stop eating there?


STOP GOING TO GAMES. WANG IS THE CAUSE. WANG HAS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!


Success is the culmination of wise decisions based on sound logic and carefully manifested plans of action.

The Islanders are a culmination of years of pulling things out of ones arse and seeing if it won't stink.

Thus, Wang.

(Snow didn't fire Lavy, keep Milbury, dissect the '01-2 team, hire Stirling, tell fans to sit down and shut up and cause sun burns, Ra did.)





And MITCH! Unreal! Great post.

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Old
03-15-2012, 11:17 AM
  #39
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Everyone should get blamed. Unfortunately no one will. The fans will surely want to hold people responsible, but I'm already prepared for another year of Capuano. I just don't see SnoWang making the right move & firing Cap, and sending a bunch of players packing. I hope I'm wrong, but I forsee next season being the same exact team plus Petrov and hopefully minus Nino.

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Old
03-15-2012, 11:43 AM
  #40
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Whoever left the (flood)gate open

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Old
03-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #41
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Not JT

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Old
03-15-2012, 12:32 PM
  #42
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A meltdown like Tuesday is all on the coaching. In the bigger picture the blame lies equally much on Snow and Wang.

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Old
03-15-2012, 12:43 PM
  #43
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I said this several times during the hot streak in Jan and repeated the same in Feb. The Isles schedule in March is (was back then) brutal. If Snow did not buy at the deadline, then he needed to sell b/c 6/8 points out was still going to take miracles to be 'in the hunt' based on the March schedule.

Again, that points to Wang/Snow. Wang did NOT want to add fixed costs (aka salary) with zero chance of ROI on it (no playoffs) this season.

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Old
03-15-2012, 03:41 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
  1. The owner: For not allotting a high enough budget to ice a competitive team.
  2. The GM: For not realizing the makeup of the team was a failure from the beginning. Even with a limited payroll, the mix could have been improved.
  3. The coach: For taking far too long to experiment with lines and never quite creating a proper mix of what he did have to work with.
  4. The players: For not improving even in a harsh environment. For finding ways to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, responsibility is highest at the top and lowest at the bottom.

Why does the owner have the greatest responsibility?
A higher payroll allows for greater ability to obtain the players the GM needs in order to build a fully functional team. Realistically, there is a bare minimum required to compete at a consistently high level and have some leeway for a reasonable amount of failure. The owner is directly responsible for the image of the franchise as a clown show and the state of our building ultimately falls upon the owner to fix. Even if he isn't the only party responsible, he has the most power within the organization to change our image and infrastructure.

Why is the GM next in line in terms of responsibility?
Operating at a fixed cost, still allows for a certain amount of personnel movement. The mix we went to war with sucked. We never changed the mix throughout the season. While the GM is shorthanded because of the owner, the GM still needs to understand the weaknesses of the team and try to improve upon them. Even with a fixed payroll, we didn't make moves during the season to change the makeup of the team, nor did we target players in the previous off-season to change the makeup of the team.

Why is the coach next to the bottom on the responsibility totem pole?

Because he can only work with what he has. He can request players, but only the GM and owner have the power to obtain them. The coach may not even have full control over how pieces of his roster move up and down between the AHL and the NHL squads. The coach can implement systems. He can reinforce his system by running practices and altering ice time and sitting players to provide rewards and punishment. However, he can't play out on the ice. His assistants can help with the coaching and practices, but they're not out on the ice. On-ice and off-ice coaching require leaders on and off the ice. Guys communicating with each other. Guys reacting to the changes in momentum and even individual plays. Veteran hockey players are required to even out the bumps in the schedule and add consistency to a team when younger players are inconsistent.

Why do the players get blamed the least?

Do I really have to get into the age and games played stuff again? Josh Bailey has played more games than 9 of our current crop of NHL forwards. He is 22 years of age. Frans Nielsen is our most seasoned top-9 forward - a vet of only 300+ NHL games. Every other veteran we've had didn't deserve to sniff the top-9 this year. None of our young forwards have ever had a veteran in their prime to play with. Not one. Our defense has a little more experience, but the entire team isn't built to deal with larger or more mobile teams. We rely on a 21 year old for our most consistent defense. Unfortunately, we often play large and more mobile teams within our division. The players can only do so much and are lacking in physical attributes to deal with these teams. Yes, some of the above players should have improved a bit more. Some of our streaks were pretty atrocious, but when the makeup of the team is built for failure, there's only so much you can blame any individual player.

Should we blame Grabner-Nielsen-KO for not being the counterattacking line they were last season? What changed? I'll argue that Grabner didn't finish or get enough shots on goal; Nielsen became even more afraid of the center of the ice and started making poor decisions in both ends of the ice; while KO doesn't finish enough (with checks or scoring goals.) 2/3s of the line is easily contained in the offensive zone. There's little net front presence. Only one player has ever finished well on the rush and he failed to do so this year. Sure, blame the players, but I'll argue that the line has always been a high risk line and would greatly benefit from a larger goal scoring center that drives to the net. (A type of player that would mesh well with many of our players. A type of player we don't have.)

Moulson-JT-PAP ??? Offensively, you can't ask for much more. However, this is yet another line that is easily contained by big and/or mobile squads. Yet, this line does most of its damage when it is already in the offensive zone. It's completely defused against certain squads. It is only through immense individual efforts that anything gets done against certain teams. Most often, it's the line's best player making the most out of very little time and space.

For most of the season, you couldn't put together anything worth looking at in the bottom-6. Our most effective lines have been filled with or mostly filled with rookies, or not truly designed for the role we expect of them.

The players take the least of the blame in my estimation. They're human. Most of them are very young and inexperienced who have never had the opportunity to play with a veteran in their prime. The rest of them are past their prime. The ones we **** on the most are quite frankly a product of their environment more than anything else.

To give you an idea of how low our payroll is right now, think about this:

Setting aside bonuses, do you guys know how low our payroll is right now for our forward group?

Taking our 13 most used forwards right now:
12,742,500 Base Salary
6,260,000 in total eligible bonuses (not stating which can no longer be achieved)
19,002,500 Base Salary + All eligible bonuses

Brad Richards: $2 million in salary + $10,000,000 signing bonus
=$12 million in total salary of which he received $10 million up front

The Rangers paid one player almost the entire amount of money we would automatically be due to pay almost our entire squad of forwards if we started the season with the current squad today. It's an extreme example, but it's pathetic that I can make this kind of example at all. Not to mention, our "average forward" is making at least 1/2 of the NHL average in base salary.

Another depressing page: http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

Seriously, look at that number. Look at how much less we're paying our players in comparison to the 2nd and 3rd from last teams. (~$10 million and ~$15 million respectively.)

We're getting what we're paying for right now. In a few years, we'll be better even with a lower payroll, but that's how long it will take. It literally will take 2-3 more years to build this team from the bottom up with incremental increases in pay for our older young forwards. A lot of suck for what is only guaranteed to be a "good team". We deserve a great one. We deserve better. Our suffering dictates it. Our history dictates it. Unfortunately, a lot of inside and outside forces are working against it.

,
Mitch

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03-15-2012, 09:01 PM
  #45
ScaredStreit
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Wang and Snow get the blame. Wang moreso. Wang has put Snow in a difficult situation...but that doesn't mean Snow's job isn't to make the best of the situation (which I don't think he's able to do).



Honestly I don't get why people are surprised: this team isn't that good. The players aren't that good. It's that simple. Next year without a legit NHL starter it's going to only get uglier.

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03-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #46
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Anyone not blaming Capuano needs to look at Bridgeport. What exactly was Thompson given to work with in getting the Soundtigers to the top of the division (outside of solid goaltending)? He's had exactly two good scorers and next to no defense. But he's got those guys working their tails off.

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03-15-2012, 11:43 PM
  #47
mitchy22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHorse View Post
Anyone not blaming Capuano needs to look at Bridgeport. What exactly was Thompson given to work with in getting the Soundtigers to the top of the division (outside of solid goaltending)? He's had exactly two good scorers and next to no defense. But he's got those guys working their tails off.
This team, on more than a few nights, has worked its tail off. It's also had a bunch of stinkers. There were games where we came out hard. There were games where we came out like we weren't ready to play at all. How much is the coach and how much is the roster?

Hard work only makes so much of a difference and it is as dependent on the coach as much as it is on the roster itself. As far our AHL coach is concerned, there's a huge discrepancy in talent and physical abilities between the AHL and the NHL. There's only so much that hard work can overcome player and lineup deficiencies at the NHL level. If you can't compete well within your division because of these deficiencies, they become that much more of a problem.

Hard work isn't going to make our guys much better skaters. Determination helps, but it doesn't get you to every loose puck. When our smaller players finish checks, they aren't going to bang larger players off of the puck or bruise guys up as much as bigger and stronger players will (and make them think twice about going for the next loose puck or holding on to it for too long, or making them force a play now or in the future when they remember a past hit.)

We aren't going to clear the front of the net by sheer will alone. It makes a difference, but there's a limit to the difference that effort can make when your talent and physical abilities only take you so far. Experience also matters.

Obviously, Capuano deserves some of the blame (for more than a few reasons) - the share of the blame is just a smaller percentage than those who put the team together. I think it's safe to say that there's a lack of passion that we see on the bench from Capuano. One does have to wonder what kind of motivator he is. Of course, we've also seen Doug Weight explode. There could be a mixture off the ice with the two of them. Who really knows?

Still, what would you rather have?
  1. These three things: A 6'2" 220 pound center who regularly scores 25-30 goals/season, throws his body around and drives to the net. A 6'2" 220 pound top-4 defender who is mobile, can throw his body around and makes a good first pass. A 3rd line center with some size who can play in a checking role and is good for 30 points.
  2. A much better coach.

Another way to look at it:
  1. All things being equal, where do you feel the NYI squad from this season headed by Peter Laviolette should be expected to finish?
  2. All things being equal, where do you feel the Philly squad should be expected to finish when headed by Jack Capuano?

Those are general questions and my commentary isn't specifically aimed at you.

It just simply isn't worth judging the coach or players that harshly in the current environment. Both the coach and the players are working shorthanded. They without a doubt deserve some criticism. However, that criticism should take into consideration the environment they are working in and the environment they developed in (on top of the amount of experience they have combined.)

I'd love to have a much better coach. However, I'd much rather have a better mix of players with a couple of veterans mixed in that have proven to be consistent in the past and lead by example on the ice. I'd like to have some more goal scoring talent. I'd like to have more size down the middle. I'd like to have more guys who naturally drive to the net. I'd like a physically stronger, more intimidating, more talented team.

Want a team that works hard and plays hard? It helps if their bodies are designed to play that way. Even if half of the team is big and strong, the other half then follows suit and the stronger half makes it easier for them. Takes pressure off of the skilled forwards. Gives them more room on the ice. Helps with possession so the skilled forwards aren't getting as beat up as often. I could go on and on. The team was built like crap for this season. It lacked goal scoring, size, skating and (more than anything) experience. The fact that the coach also lacked experience sure didn't help. Go back in time, and our owner and GM also lacked experience when it comes to running a hockey club. Perhaps they've learned something by now...we can only hope.

...I'm not holding my breath anymore. I stopped holding my breath about two seasons ago. Each season that passes without reasonable additions or changes just amplifies the blame that should be heaped on the top of the stack. I'm expecting this rebuild to take us as long as possible and only get us "so far" until I see something that would warrant me to change my expectations.

,
Mitch


Last edited by mitchy22: 03-15-2012 at 11:52 PM. Reason: added the last bit
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03-15-2012, 11:57 PM
  #48
blitzkriegs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
This team, on more than a few nights, has worked its tail off. It's also had a bunch of stinkers. There were games where we came out hard. There were games where we came out like we weren't ready to play at all. How much is the coach and how much is the roster?

Hard work only makes so much of a difference and it is as dependent on the coach as much as it is on the roster itself. As far our AHL coach is concerned, there's a huge discrepancy in talent and physical abilities between the AHL and the NHL. There's only so much that hard work can overcome player and lineup deficiencies at the NHL level. If you can't compete well within your division because of these deficiencies, they become that much more of a problem.

Hard work isn't going to make our guys much better skaters. Determination helps, but it doesn't get you to every loose puck. When our smaller players finish checks, they aren't going to bang larger players off of the puck or bruise guys up as much as bigger and stronger players will (and make them think twice about going for the next loose puck or holding on to it for too long, or making them force a play now or in the future when they remember a past hit.)

We aren't going to clear the front of the net by sheer will alone. It makes a difference, but there's a limit to the difference that effort can make when your talent and physical abilities only take you so far. Experience also matters.

Obviously, Capuano deserves some of the blame (for more than a few reasons) - the share of the blame is just a smaller percentage than those who put the team together. I think it's safe to say that there's a lack of passion that we see on the bench from Capuano. One does have to wonder what kind of motivator he is. Of course, we've also seen Doug Weight explode. There could be a mixture off the ice with the two of them. Who really knows?

Still, what would you rather have?
  1. These three things: A 6'2" 220 pound center who regularly scores 25-30 goals/season, throws his body around and drives to the net. A 6'2" 220 pound top-4 defender who is mobile, can throw his body around and makes a good first pass. A 3rd line center with some size who can play in a checking role and is good for 30 points.
  2. A much better coach.

Another way to look at it:
  1. All things being equal, where do you feel the NYI squad from this season headed by Peter Laviolette should be expected to finish?
  2. All things being equal, where do you feel the Philly squad should be expected to finish when headed by Jack Capuano?

Those are general questions and my commentary isn't specifically aimed at you.

It just simply isn't worth judging the coach or players that harshly in the current environment. Both the coach and the players are working shorthanded. They without a doubt deserve some criticism. However, that criticism should take into consideration the environment they are working in and the environment they developed in (on top of the amount of experience they have combined.)

I'd love to have a much better coach. However, I'd much rather have a better mix of players with a couple of veterans mixed in that have proven to be consistent in the past and lead by example on the ice. I'd like to have some more goal scoring talent. I'd like to have more size down the middle. I'd like to have more guys who naturally drive to the net. I'd like a physically stronger, more intimidating, more talented team.

Want a team that works hard and plays hard? It helps if their bodies are designed to play that way. Even if half of the team is big and strong, the other half then follows suit and the stronger half makes it easier for them. Takes pressure off of the skilled forwards. Gives them more room on the ice. Helps with possession so the skilled forwards aren't getting as beat up as often. I could go on and on. The team was built like crap for this season. It lacked goal scoring, size, skating and (more than anything) experience. The fact that the coach also lacked experience sure didn't help. Go back in time, and our owner and GM also lacked experience when it comes to running a hockey club. Perhaps they've learned something by now...we can only hope.

...I'm not holding my breath anymore. I stopped holding my breath about two seasons ago. Each season that passes without reasonable additions or changes just amplifies the blame that should be heaped on the top of the stack. I'm expecting this rebuild to take us as long as possible and only get us "so far" until I see something that would warrant me to change my expectations.

,
Mitch
If he's paying out the least amount of cash for on ice payroll in the league by more than 30%, then certainly the Wanger ain't paying for a better coach.

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