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Old
07-20-2012, 08:32 PM
  #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doaner View Post
Yeah. That and cleaning issues. I hear horror stories of a guy putting a round through a flat screen. Ouch!! Guns don't go off on their own. They need human input and manipulation to go off.
Yeah, but you can't tell that to hyper-liberals and people who don't believe in guns. They believe that a firearm has a mind of it's own and the owners are crazy and talk to them, feed them, and play music for them. lol

I carry everywhere. I know an Officer that was almost killed during a bank robbery because he DIDN'T have his gun and was inside making a deposit. Hell no to that.

The incidents are not even close to being similar, but look back at the Virginia Tech shooting a few years ago. Those students stood against the wall and allowed themselves to be executed. Is this what we teach in our society and schools now? Don't be bullied, tell someone? Seriously? Get a bigger stick and 'eff that guy/girl up!

The person who is arrested related to the Colorado incident knew what he was doing, was methodical, planned it out, and executed the plan. NO ONE saw it coming.

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07-20-2012, 08:33 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
"First hand"? Do you have any stats to back that up, or just weirdly cryptic anecdotes?
Mr. Moderator... if you will... I can't give stats because I am not going to run the report from my work computer on active cases. That would be against policy and the law.

So, YES... FIRST HAND.

Since Moderators require a source for everything, and the internet is all-knowing and without a link it can't be true... look up your own neighborhood. www.azcentral.com/CrimeMaps/

If based on the response you can't figure out what I do for a living...

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Old
07-20-2012, 09:01 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by PPD7952 View Post
Mr. Moderator... if you will... I can't give stats because I am not going to run the report from my work computer on active cases. That would be against policy and the law.

So, YES... FIRST HAND.

Since Moderators require a source for everything, and the internet is all-knowing and without a link it can't be true... look up your own neighborhood. www.azcentral.com/CrimeMaps/

If based on the response you can't figure out what I do for a living...
The ironicy in all of this was that there was another home invasion in Phx today.

You can PM me this if you like, but what precinct do you work from?

I think it's hard for those who have never served their country or community to fully grasp the world and the people that live in it. You need to be prepared for the worst. Many on here are taking it very extreme, which is cool if they want to, but my family and I (yours as well it sounds) will be protected.

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07-20-2012, 09:27 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by PPD7952 View Post
Mr. Moderator... if you will... I can't give stats because I am not going to run the report from my work computer on active cases. That would be against policy and the law.

So, YES... FIRST HAND.

Since Moderators require a source for everything, and the internet is all-knowing and without a link it can't be true... look up your own neighborhood. www.azcentral.com/CrimeMaps/

If based on the response you can't figure out what I do for a living...
First of all, let the condescending tone go. I'm not coming after your gun. I just think, in general, people should use more discretion before bringing them into their homes. I also think we can have a civil discussion here without patronizing each other.

Even if I lived anywhere near Arizona (hello from the mid-Atlantic), I don't think those would be useful. When I was talking about accidental shootings, I meant things like a child finding a firearm and discharging it or a homeowner mistaking a family member for an intruder. Those don't show up in crime reports.

I'm looking for some numbers to back me up on this, but Google's search results are flooded by news reports and op-eds from today, and the few reliable sources I've been able to find (e.g. pages that don't look like their holdovers from Geocities webrings) aren't loading. I assume they're not used to the traffic they've gotten today. But I'll keep looking.

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07-20-2012, 09:55 PM
  #655
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Here's the best I've been able to find so far: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...105/4/888.full

It's from the American Academy of Pediatrics, which I hope we can agree doesn't have an agenda (or at least much less of one than the NRA or a gun control group). The number are a bit old, and while I would guess they've actually gone up as gun laws have been relaxed, let's just take them at face value. Also keep in mind this is just injuries affecting the pediatric population, i.e. those under the age of 18.

The important takeaway from this piece that I was trying to convey is found in the "Guns and Gun Ownership" section, in particular this line:

Quote:
In fact, guns kept in the home are 43 times more likely to be used to kill someone known to the family than to be used to kill in self-defense.

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07-20-2012, 10:08 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by doaner View Post
The ironicy in all of this was that there was another home invasion in Phx today.

You can PM me this if you like, but what precinct do you work from?

I think it's hard for those who have never served their country or community to fully grasp the world and the people that live in it. You need to be prepared for the worst. Many on here are taking it very extreme, which is cool if they want to, but my family and I (yours as well it sounds) will be protected.
Why do you assume that if people haven't served their "country" or "community" they can't grasp reality? Not to mention every Dr., Teacher, Rn, etc. is someone that is serving their country/community. You don't need a gun to have that title, sorry.

Also, you seem to be missing peoples' point. I'll make it super clear. If you are sleeping and someone sneaks into your home without you knowing, does whatever they want, and leaves (or does worse); how is that gun of yours going to protect you and your family? It isn't.

Some of you speak as if since you have a gun, nothing can touch you. You are infinitely protected because you have a gun. That is absurd, and 100% false. Certain situations are simply beyond one's control. Every person in that theater could have been armed, and that guy still wold have killed 10+ people. In fact, had everyone been armed that number would likely have been doubled.

I'm neither super liberal on guns, nor am I an NRA nut. I'm simply being objective and rational, something people from both sides in this thread seem incapable of doing. Sadly, the side supporting guns lacks the ability to fully argue their side and are coming off as defensive more than educated.

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Old
07-21-2012, 12:35 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Yotes Persevere View Post

Also, you seem to be missing peoples' point. I'll make it super clear. If you are sleeping and someone sneaks into your home without you knowing, does whatever they want, and leaves (or does worse); how is that gun of yours going to protect you and your family? It isn't.

Some of you speak as if since you have a gun, nothing can touch you. You are infinitely protected because you have a gun. That is absurd, and 100% false. Certain situations are simply beyond one's control. Every person in that theater could have been armed, and that guy still wold have killed 10+ people. In fact, had everyone been armed that number would likely have been doubled.

I'm neither super liberal on guns, nor am I an NRA nut. I'm simply being objective and rational, something people from both sides in this thread seem incapable of doing. Sadly, the side supporting guns lacks the ability to fully argue their side and are coming off as defensive more than educated.
IF everyone was armed he would have gone to a place where there is an increased likelihood of no one being armed. He didn't show up at a police station. If one or two people were armed, maybe they could have gotten off a round or two. Even with the body armor, it would have gotten his attention and drawn fire to the armed theater goers, instead of shooting fish in a barrel. If he has to think for a second or two, more people have the opportunity to escape.

Granted, you will not always get your gun out to protect first and the bad guy will win some. The bad guy is always going to win if he's the only one with the gun. Like in hockey you can't score if you don't shoot.

It sucks when people don't value life and feel they can kill people on a whim.

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Old
07-21-2012, 05:44 AM
  #658
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Guns provide a false sense of security, if someone really wants to kill you they will and the odds of you stopping them are minute at best. But hey whatever the paranoid people need to sleep at night, if having a gun helps you with your being afraid I guess that's ok.

Full disclaimer, I own several firearms, I just have no interest in jacking off about it.

So far it seems society's response to this event is "blah blah ban guns" or "blah blah we need more guns". IMO two equally stupid ****ing reactions.

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07-21-2012, 08:36 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Guns provide a false sense of security, if someone really wants to kill you they will and the odds of you stopping them are minute at best. But hey whatever the paranoid people need to sleep at night, if having a gun helps you with your being afraid I guess that's ok.

Full disclaimer, I own several firearms, I just have no interest in jacking off about it.

So far it seems society's response to this event is "blah blah ban guns" or "blah blah we need more guns". IMO two equally stupid ****ing reactions.
There's plenty of nuance in this debate. Don't let the loudest voices drown out the reasonable ones.

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07-21-2012, 02:30 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
if someone really wants to kill you they will
This is the way it's always seemed to me. The same could be said for property theft; if someone really wants to steal your stuff, it's probably going to happen. You simply can't be on guard against all things at all times. On a visceral level, I tend to sympathize with doaner's "better safe than sorry" approach to carrying, but intellectually, I can't help but feel like most of what we think of as "security" is a comforting illusion at best, gun ownership included.

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07-21-2012, 02:32 PM
  #661
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What a real shame to see such a great thread to discuss in turned political and is now in the politics section. The gun debate was a joke. An even bigger joke is now others are saying the parents are to blame for his son going off in the 1st place.

Here is my response from before about "****** parenting".

Quote:
In the past, I would agree with you! Based on my life experence, I have seen plenty of people who were raised by bad parenting or not raised by any parents at all and they turned out fine. I have seen people who are ****ed up later in life despite how great their parents effort was at rasing their children to be right for there is so much the parents can do regardless of what their social-economic status is. Bad parenting has become a pathetic excuse overtime because those who say it are giving those who are ****ed up in someway an excuse to do something ****ed up. The killer was at a point in his life where all he can do is remember what his parents told him as he is the only one responsible for the choices he makes. The ones who turned out fine despite having bad parents or no parents understood this and were willing to focus more on the future and let go of the past so they in turn don't end up not only as bad people in society but if they ever have kids to be there for their children when there parents weren't there for him/her as kids.

If you look at this murderers background, he came from an upper-middle class family and his only brush in with the law before his 1st ever arrest on friday was for a traffic ticket. He was an outstanding high school student who played soccer and graduated with high honors from UC Riverside before going for his PhD in Neuroscience at a well known university. Sounds like to me he wasn't raised by ****ty parents and what lead to killer to do something stupid was the result of something behavioral later in his life that was well beyond what he parents can do, especially for someone who wasn't living with his parents for quite sometime. By the looks of things, considering he dropped out of the neuroscience program, that is a sign that maybe he couldn't take the pressure academically anymore and feared he was going to be a failure in life as result of giving in to the pressure.

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Old
07-21-2012, 03:29 PM
  #662
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PhxYotes(I think that's your handle) - how is the job search going?

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Old
07-21-2012, 08:41 PM
  #663
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List of those killed in the article.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ies/56389076/1

One of the those killed is from the Phoenix Area.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/a...ahwatukee.html

Quote:
One of the victims of the horrific mass shooting in Aurora, Colo. Thursday night is from Ahwatukee.

According to a neighbor, University of Denver officials and Twitter feeds from friends, 24-year-old Alex Teves, a 2006 graduate of Desert Vista High School in the Tempe Unified School District, was one of 12 victims killed when a gunman opened fire in a crowded movie theater premiering the new movie "The Dark Knight Rises."

A neighbor of the Teves family, who said the family was in Denver and that she wanted permission from the family before speaking on the record, said Saturday that Teves was indeed one of the victims involved in the massacre.

The University of Denver released a statement saying Teves was graduated from the school recently, and identified his home town as Phoenix.

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Old
07-22-2012, 09:14 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
PhxYotes(I think that's your handle) - how is the job search going?
Not good
I don't get it... I have good grades, and no criminal record, Yet i'm not wanted at a grocery store

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07-22-2012, 09:48 PM
  #665
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Not good
I don't get it... I have good grades, and no criminal record, Yet i'm not wanted at a grocery store
When the economy is bad, the advantage goes to the business towards getting who they are looking for. To even work at a grocery store now, they want people who are both versatile and want to be with the company long term and move up with in. In this econony, someone with a masters degree or better will more likely end up bagging groceries before you do.

Your best shot at getting a job is to apply at place that has yet to open up to the public and needs to fill all the positions before they open.

Keep trying!

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07-22-2012, 10:09 PM
  #666
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When the economy is bad, the advantage goes to the business towards getting who they are looking for. To even work at a grocery store now, they want people who are both versatile and want to be with the company long term and move up with in. In this econony, someone with a masters degree or better will more likely end up bagging groceries before you do.

Your best shot at getting a job is to apply at place that has yet to open up to the public and needs to fill all the positions before they open.

Keep trying!
I would disagree. If I am a business owner and the economy is in the crapper (as it is now), then I want the person that has the least ability to use my company as a leapfrog to a better one once (if) the economy rebounds. Someone with a masters degree has no business bagging groceries and would likely leave given a better scenario.

Just my opinion

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07-22-2012, 11:18 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by PhXcoyotes View Post
Not good
I don't get it... I have good grades, and no criminal record, Yet i'm not wanted at a grocery store
They probably want somebody who can work whatever shift they tell them to work. They also probably want somebody who might stick around for a few years. They might see you as expensive to train, difficult to schedule, and not likely to retain.

Not saying I see it that way, but I could see why businesses would prefer to hire a junior college drop out than a bright eyed highschool kid with all kinds of extra curricular activities, and goals they are working toward. If it comes down to bagging groceries, I want somebody who is rarely busy with anything else and isnt actively looking to do practically anything but.

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07-23-2012, 11:39 AM
  #668
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Here is a picture of the accused in a Colorado courtroom.


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07-23-2012, 11:40 AM
  #669
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I would disagree. If I am a business owner and the economy is in the crapper (as it is now), then I want the person that has the least ability to use my company as a leapfrog to a better one once (if) the economy rebounds. Someone with a masters degree has no business bagging groceries and would likely leave given a better scenario.

Just my opinion
Good argument! We can say your idea is the smart way a business goes and the idea I presented is a bad way to do in business.

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07-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #670
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Good argument! We can say your idea is the smart way a business goes and the idea I presented is a bad way to do in business.
It helps if I think about what I want to say before typing it out. I want to say something about the shooting, but I won't b/c I will be just labeled as something that isn't true.

He sure looks like a clown today from that picture you posted.

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07-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #671
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HELL YES!

I checked my e-mail today, and have to set up a phone interview at a sandwich shop.

Doesn't mean I got it, but it's one step closer!

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07-23-2012, 12:30 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by doaner View Post
It helps if I think about what I want to say before typing it out. I want to say something about the shooting, but I won't b/c I will be just labeled as something that isn't true.

He sure looks like a clown today from that picture you posted.
This entire debate reminds me of the saying: "God created man, Smith & Wesson made them equal".

I do not carry a concealed weapon and for years have not even thought of using the many firearms I have securely locked at home, for self defense. I can say without hesitation however that had someone (preferably several) been carrying (other than the perp.) this clown could have had his red hair the night of the incident, courtesy of a bullet, or better yet "bullets" to the head!

I guess what it all boils down to is the way it is and the way it ought to be.


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07-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
This entire debate reminds me of the saying: "God created man, Smith & Wesson made them equal.

I do not carry a concealed weapon and have not (for years) even thought of using the many firearms I have securely locked at home, for self defense. I can say without hesitation however that had someone (preferably several) been carrying (other than the perp.) this clown could have had his red hair the night of the incident, courtesy of a bullet, or better yet "bullets" to the head!

I guess what it all boils down to is the way it is and the way it ought to be.
Right. I agree. I also like the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." it wasn't a floating AR or handgun killing people, it was some dumbass using his finger to do the destruction. People talk about how a gun can get into the hands of a kid and we all know how that ends up. You have to be smart about where you place anything like this (hell, even cutting knives). If a kid gets into a steak knife and stabs someone, should be get laws on that too?

I keep my pistol on my gun belt high above any child's reach in my closet. My AR is locked in my patrol vehicle and my ankle holster is in the same spot as my gun belt. When my kids get older, I will show it to them and teach them about the safeties and how powerful a weapon like that is.

If one person was packing and had shot this *******, it most likely would not have taken him down. It would, however, have stunned him. A bullet proof vest or whatever will still freakin hurt if it gets hit. Then, maybe a few courageous folks could have tackled the guy and got the weapons out of his control. People would have still died, but the number could have been fewer.

The bad guy always has the upper hand in these scenarios. They know when they are going to execute a horrific plan and have the jump. On a traffic stop, I never know what could happen to me or a fellow brother/sister. I am always vigilant in every contact I make and even when I am out with the family. It's just the reality of the world we live in.

Many might disagree with me on my last point, but we need to remain vigilant in our everyday lives. 9-11 has taught us many things. We thought we were untouchable and got complacent. I don't want that to happen again. My heroes are the people on United 93 that decided they would not be bullied and did what they could to prevent something horrific from further happening.

If this is WAY to OT, Pho and Mouser, I appologize. I am not trying to piss anyone off or start a debate. This is the last thing i wanted to say about posts i had seen made about me. I am passionate about what I do and love this country way to much to see her get hurt.

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07-23-2012, 02:51 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by doaner View Post
The bad guy always has the upper hand in these scenarios. They know when they are going to execute a horrific plan and have the jump. On a traffic stop, I never know what could happen to me or a fellow brother/sister. I am always vigilant in every contact I make and even when I am out with the family. It's just the reality of the world we live in.
A traffic stop is a lot different than say a trip to Cold Stone Creamery. I don't think being vigilant is a necessity for the latter. I guess my only point is context matters, we don't need to run around being paranoid in situations that statistically do not warrant it.

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07-23-2012, 02:54 PM
  #675
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A traffic stop is a lot different than say a trip to Cold Stone Creamery. I don't think being vigilant is a necessity for the latter. I guess my only point is context matters, we don't need to run around being paranoid in situations that statistically do not warrant it.
We're you worried about flying in an airplane before 9-11? Now lots of people are more cautious and watch their surroundings. That's all. Have a good day.

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