I think at this point it is important to remind you that this whole thread started because you made a sweeping statement based on opinion that the media had a negative influence on the Maple Leafs.
Please explain the thought process of what Burke has done. Three years ago Burke took over our team and we were bad on defense, had no #1 centre, no #1 goalie, and were out of the playoffs. Where are we today?
The statement I made was that an ex Leaf just weighed in on the challenges of handling a job in pro sports in Toronto. Not my opinion, the opinion shared by Burke, an ex player, an ex coach, and many others who weighed in here. You are incorrect.
I have explained the thought process, as Burke has explained it since he arrived. In case you missed it:
1. With no competitive core in place, a rookie player's chances of success are exponentially compromised.
2. The sponsors and season ticket holders are entitled to a more exciting brand of hockey than what had been seen.
3. The junior system needed immediate attention. There was no competition for jobs.
4. Players in junior would be forced to fight it out amongst each other and push each other to improve.
5. Nobody would inherit a call up. they would earn it and when they prove they can handle it at the pro level, they might be graduated.
6. No insane lifetime contracts would be handed out.
7. Nobody would be asked or expected to underachieve in order to benefit the team at the draft. They would be required to compete at all times.
Result:
1. there is now a solid, respectable prospect pool and development system in place.
2. the core group is close to being ready to really compete for a playoff spot.
3. prospects are CHALLENGING each other for a spot.
4. high end youth is beginning to emerge with the NHL team.
5. we have a bonafide league leader in scoring in Kessel.
6. the team is learning to play for each other, and fight together through adversity. These tough character lessons come in handy when you're grinding it out in the playoffs.
Thats the goal. To be organizationally solid, to have a system which supports player development as opposed to ramming kids through based on pedigree, and to learn the habit of COMPETING hard, and fighting through adversity to develop a winning character.
The results don't manifest immediately. And the process must continue. You don't bail halff way through and hope for a pimple faced child prodigy to save us all.
You clearly don't understand or appreciate the art of debating, any more than you understand the thought process behind what Burke has done.
.
What you mistake for debating is someone yanking your chain for as long as you let him nor does understanding what Burke is doing have anything to do with it.
What you mistake for debating is someone yanking your chain for as long as you let him nor does understanding what Burke is doing have anything to do with it.
Agreed, and the longer he continues, the more people will realize it.
the media and the fans hurt the Leafs more than they help.
Its not like the ACC is full of fans chanting like in Winnipeg. Its all negative. A 20,000 crowd waiting for something good to happen so they can make a peep.
NO team can play in the environment that is Toronto and the ACC.
This team is doomed to faill until people realize, that although we love the Leafs and hockey is a huge passion, it is just a sport and a game.
Go out and cheer hard. Fans need to will this team to lofty heights.
Sitting back creating rumours, trading every player after a bad game, pulling Burke in 20 directions, fix the offense, fix the defense, fix the goaltending, draft high, make a trade, dont make a trade....etc.
Leafs fans should not expect nothing. I dont care if you are 20, 30, 40, 50,60,70,80 and the Leafs have never won in your life time.
New players come in with the weight of 40 years on their backs.
Forget the past. Leaf fans are like all the gf's and wives in the world all wrapped up into one pissed off, PMS'ing, overweight women that cant fit into anything she owns.
Wow, it is the fans fault and they act like a women who is PMSing.....
The leafs have won in my Life time or else the NHL allowed the Leafs to Drive around in Convertibles with George Armstrong holding the Cup! There was a lot of people lining the street as well. My Dad took me to this figment of my imagination.
The statement I made was that an ex Leaf just weighed in on the challenges of handling a job in pro sports in Toronto. Not my opinion, the opinion shared by Burke, an ex player, an ex coach, and many others who weighed in here. You are incorrect.
I have explained the thought process, as Burke has explained it since he arrived. In case you missed it:
1. With no competitive core in place, a rookie player's chances of success are exponentially compromised.
2. The sponsors and season ticket holders are entitled to a more exciting brand of hockey than what had been seen.
3. The junior system needed immediate attention. There was no competition for jobs.
4. Players in junior would be forced to fight it out amongst each other and push each other to improve.
5. Nobody would inherit a call up. they would earn it and when they prove they can handle it at the pro level, they might be graduated.
6. No insane lifetime contracts would be handed out.
7. Nobody would be asked or expected to underachieve in order to benefit the team at the draft. They would be required to compete at all times.
Result:
1. there is now a solid, respectable prospect pool and development system in place.
2. the core group is close to being ready to really compete for a playoff spot.
3. prospects are CHALLENGING each other for a spot.
4. high end youth is beginning to emerge with the NHL team.
5. we have a bonafide league leader in scoring in Kessel.
6. the team is learning to play for each other, and fight together through adversity. These tough character lessons come in handy when you're grinding it out in the playoffs.
Thats the goal. To be organizationally solid, to have a system which supports player development as opposed to ramming kids through based on pedigree, and to learn the habit of COMPETING hard, and fighting through adversity to develop a winning character.
The results don't manifest immediately. And the process must continue. You don't bail halff way through and hope for a pimple faced child prodigy to save us all.
Make no mistake it was your opinion that you started with as you made an assumption and it was wrong....Listen to the interview again as the answer is in there.
Do all Leafs fan who regurgitate what Burke said have a string sticking out of their back? If not listen with an objective mind and make your own decisions.
What you mistake for debating is someone yanking your chain for as long as you let him nor does understanding what Burke is doing have anything to do with it.
Make no mistake it was your opinion that you started with as you made an assumption and it was wrong....Listen to the interview again as the answer is in there.
Do all Leafs fan who regurgitate what Burke said have a string sticking out of their back? If not listen with an objective mind and make your own decisions.
Just curious. What do you think he was commenting on, and why do you feel that way?
the media and the fans hurt the Leafs more than they help.
Its not like the ACC is full of fans chanting like in Winnipeg. Its all negative. A 20,000 crowd waiting for something good to happen so they can make a peep.
NO team can play in the environment that is Toronto and the ACC.
This team is doomed to faill until people realize, that although we love the Leafs and hockey is a huge passion, it is just a sport and a game.
Go out and cheer hard. Fans need to will this team to lofty heights.
Sitting back creating rumours, trading every player after a bad game, pulling Burke in 20 directions, fix the offense, fix the defense, fix the goaltending, draft high, make a trade, dont make a trade....etc.
Leafs fans should not expect nothing. I dont care if you are 20, 30, 40, 50,60,70,80 and the Leafs have never won in your life time.
New players come in with the weight of 40 years on their backs.
Forget the past. Leaf fans are like all the gf's and wives in the world all wrapped up into one pissed off, PMS'ing, overweight women that cant fit into anything she owns.
I don't even think you should be going there with any sort of insinuation that the fans in the ACC are in any way to be blamed for the way the team performs. Sure, being very vocal at games can give the team that extra gear but it's a two way street, the team should be giving their fans something to cheer about. If a fan wants to chant Go Leafs Go when the team is losing 7-0, that's fine, but it's hardly fair for you to expect that fans who pay a lot of money to go see them are also obligated to motivate the team when they aren't playing well. A team shouldn't need 20,000 fans screaming for 60 minutes of play. They have 20,000 faces out in the crowd who they know came to see them play and came to see them win. You're telling me that people who earn a fraction of what you earn, and who help pay your pay cheques, invest their money to come see you play and yet it's the fans fault because they don't motivate the team with their loudness during the game? That's a cop out excuse if I ever did hear one.
Before the slump the Leafs won twice as many games as they lost in the ACC. Did the fans just suddenly decide to come to games with their mouths sewn up so that team started losing because of that?
The only people to blame for this ugly season is the players. They just did not deliver when it counted. Funny thing about Toronto, it is the worse place to lose but also the best place to win.
The only people to blame for this ugly season is the players. They just did not deliver when it counted. Funny thing about Toronto, it is the worse place to lose but also the best place to win.
Remains to be seen.I like that Burke has restocked the junior system and parlayed assets into future leaders like Gardiner and Colborne. I like that we have a reliable stop gap in Bozak that cost us Nothing in terms of assets, other than a little cash. I like that Frattin is a Leaf; also, a cash deal. He's going to be a good sold player for a long time. We also now have Tampa's top prospect for a good player that hasn't seen enough regular ice to warrant a roster spot. Ashton has the drive we have all missed since Tucker last laced em up.
Burke has done a ton more good than bad. And he's reversed many of his lesser productive decisions.
He's laid the groundwork for the Leafs to become successful.
Gardiner is still establishing himself as an NHLer and Colborne has yet to crack this terrible roster and you're ready to call them future leaders already?
Stop gap in Bozak until when exactly? 2016? I always thought stop gaps meant temporary or short term in relation to time.
Ashton isn't Tucker nor is he even close to becoming that type of player. He's just a kid that hits and works hard which is good but so does Mike Brown.
Let me break it down for you.
We don't have a #1 C, we don't have a legitimate #1 G, we have a bunch of pylons for defense and a wannabe #1 D in Phaneuf, wuss laden top 6/bottom 6, and no real elite prospects who show legitimate signs of dominance within the next year or two.
Burke hasn't laid the foundation for anything but failure up to this point, all he's done is build some depth in the prospect pool. Missing all those pieces, essentially what our core is supposed to be, won't be addressed anytime soon as no one is going to help us out.
It's really Burke's fault anyway. I don't think anyone would have faulted him for not having those core pieces by this point but he had to open his mouth and tell us how we're impatient/5 year plan in addition to pulling the trigger on the Kessel deal. He'll be out the door shortly after this team fails again next year.
I know Keith Aulie and I talk with his father on a semi regular basis, Keith loved being a Leafs player and was heart Broken when traded. He was also very disappointed in how he was treated this year.
I am not going to put words in his mouth but I can tell you the issues he was glad to get away from was not the media or at least not from what his father has conveyed to me.
Those issues are the same ones that led to Versteeg asking for an out
Mike Zigomanis, was asked on one of those Leafs TV profiles "where in toronto do you go most frequently" he laughs and say's "I don't go out"
The players generally cannot go anywhere in public whether they're winning or losing, theres constant scrutiny and then theres the "experts" who've never laced up a pair of skates or worse the ones that played in a house league, offering up criticisms, complaints and tips on how to be a better player
And yet, some of the more naive among us, still can't figure out why marquee free agents don't want to choose Toronto as their new destination for hockey lol.
Has it ever donned on anyone that the people who call Toronto the "Center of the Hockey Universe", are exclusively those from Toronto, or linked to Toronto?
This isn't the hockey utopia people like to fantasize about.
Those issues are the same ones that led to Versteeg asking for an out
Mike Zigomanis, was asked on one of those Leafs TV profiles "where in toronto do you go most frequently" he laughs and say's "I don't go out"
The players generally cannot go anywhere in public whether they're winning or losing, theres constant scrutiny and then theres the "experts" who've never laced up a pair of skates or worse the ones that played in a house league, offering up criticisms, complaints and tips on how to be a better player
Excuse my intrusion into your thread....from a former Leaf fan and now Lightning fan, that's one of the reasons Stammer has mentioned about not going to Toronto as does Lecavalier not wanting to go to Montreal. Last year when Stammer went to a Blue Jays game with his friends, he was mobbed by autograph seeking fans which is understandable, but some times these guys would prefer to have some peace and quiet. Hockey's the number 2 sport in Tampa after football and the player's love the fact that they can walk around usually unimpeded. It's not like we don't know who they are, because we do, but they're not treated the same way for whatever reason and they are happy to oblige in conversation and an autograph. The pressure is just not the same as in Toronto or Montreal where the demands are greater....that and they don't pay any state income tax goes a long way too.
For everyone who wants to gut the team of any veteran influence to give the kids opportunity to play, take note. For everyone who thinks the Toronto factor has no effect on prospects, same message. This is exactly why you don't bottom out in Toronto and hope to hell a bunch of kids can redeem your franchise.
The veterans are going to be there regardless. The question is: Would you rather pick 3 or pick 11? I know some people will say you play to win the games. BUT, you win those games to make it into the playoffs with a chance at the cup. The maple leafs are not making the playoffs and no chance at the cup.
Excuse my intrusion into your thread....from a former Leaf fan and now Lightning fan, that's one of the reasons Stammer has mentioned about not going to Toronto as does Lecavalier not wanting to go to Montreal. Last year when Stammer went to a Blue Jays game with his friends, he was mobbed by autograph seeking fans which is understandable, but some times these guys would prefer to have some peace and quiet. Hockey's the number 2 sport in Tampa after football and the player's love the fact that they can walk around usually unimpeded. It's not like we don't know who they are, because we do, but they're not treated the same way for whatever reason and they are happy to oblige in conversation and an autograph. The pressure is just not the same as in Toronto or Montreal where the demands are greater....that and they don't pay any state income tax goes a long way too.
Stamkos wanted to drafted by the Leafs to the point where he publicly stated that he was keeping an eye on the Leafs in the standings near the end of the 2008 season......
Gardiner is still establishing himself as an NHLer and Colborne has yet to crack this terrible roster and you're ready to call them future leaders already?
Stop gap in Bozak until when exactly? 2016? I always thought stop gaps meant temporary or short term in relation to time.
Ashton isn't Tucker nor is he even close to becoming that type of player. He's just a kid that hits and works hard which is good but so does Mike Brown.
Let me break it down for you.
We don't have a #1 C, we don't have a legitimate #1 G, we have a bunch of pylons for defense and a wannabe #1 D in Phaneuf, wuss laden top 6/bottom 6, and no real elite prospects who show legitimate signs of dominance within the next year or two.
Burke hasn't laid the foundation for anything but failure up to this point, all he's done is build some depth in the prospect pool. Missing all those pieces, essentially what our core is supposed to be, won't be addressed anytime soon as no one is going to help us out.
It's really Burke's fault anyway. I don't think anyone would have faulted him for not having those core pieces by this point but he had to open his mouth and tell us how we're impatient/5 year plan in addition to pulling the trigger on the Kessel deal. He'll be out the door shortly after this team fails again next year.
Scotty Bowman seems to concur. As do all the pro scouts, Gardiner is pretty special. Colborne has shown pretty consistent growth and projects as a solid piece. Tons of composure, intelligence and leadership capabilities.
Our D arent pylons. Thats just an unfounded opinion of yours. Gunner and Dion are a formidable pairing. Its a solid group, and theyre responding to Carlyles systems. GAA is way down since Carlyle took over.
If youre suggesting Ashton is more Mike Brown than Tucker, I really have no response that you will accept as reasonable. Top prospect in Tampa, until being traded. Hes a big body who can skate, has some decent hands and isnt afraid to battle in front of the net or use his physicality to set the tone, a trait Tucker also shared.
Re: Bozak, hes a Stopgap until one of the better prospects at C emerges. You really have nothing to base your 2016 comment on. Colborne could very well crack the roster out of camp, or earn a callup later in the season.
The situation is nowhere near as dire as you hallucinate that it is.
The veterans are going to be there regardless. The question is: Would you rather pick 3 or pick 11? I know some people will say you play to win the games. BUT, you win those games to make it into the playoffs with a chance at the cup. The maple leafs are not making the playoffs and no chance at the cup.
Moot point, and irrelevant to the original topic. The truth is, without a core group getting it done, your prospects run the risk of being rushed, regardless of where the go in the draft. So, until that group is in place, the question becomes: do we ruin a third or an 11th overall?
