Sadly, I won't be surprised if Kessel offers to accept a trade the way this debacle has been unwinding. He's gone from strength to strength and improved his overall game, and led in team scoring every year, yet he gets the same disrespect and lack of appreciation Sundin was given.
Speaking of entitlement, I find it interesting that this market thinks it deserves better. We berate our top athletes and future pieces regularly every chance we get, throw good hockey people under the bus, and demand better. This is a Leaf market, not a hockey market. wheres the support for the team at the junior level? How many of us plan to go to a Marlies playoff game? If that rink isn't rammed to the rafters in support of the Marlies, we are all a bunch of hypocrites in my opinion....
Kessel played for the same club at the same age, no?
In any case the Leafs would be in much better shape with Seguin from this day forward. I don't see where there is any debate. Kessel is far from a player that you have to have.
And Seguin on a Stanley Cup champion team with depth and great goaltending is not the same Sequin you get on a Toronto team with nothing to speak of. He gets rushed and possibly ruined. You all seem to ignore that part.
someone forgets that Burke does not approve of offer sheets if there is opportunity to deal by less antagonistic means. Had we gone that route, would we have been able to unload Kaberle to Boston for the same package?
Its about professional relationships, not skinning the other guy.
How did Florida score 6 against the Bruins? Rosters mean nothing when you have the proper mindset, Kessel played with Lupul who is a pretty damn good hockey player. Same result. Your move.
TB beats Boston 6-1 and Chara ends up with a +1, so they didn't seem to solve him 5 on 5
And Seguin on a Stanley Cup champion team with depth and great goaltending is not the same Sequin you get on a Toronto team with nothing to speak of. He gets rushed and possibly ruined. You all seem to ignore that part.
You ignore the fact that Seguin is a blue chip and makes more sense within the time frame of the Leafs.
Heres the part about the average Leaf fan not being able to appreciate the dynamics of the situation.
1.No core group.
2. Frustrated season ticket holders and corporate sponsors
3. An ownership-initiated mandate to improve the marketability and entertainment value of the franchise immediately. That means secure an impact player as soon as possible.
1. Without an established core to insulate the incoming prospects, they are vulnerable. They get rushed, and consequently, they get ruined. Even last night on HockeyCentral it was suggested that the development of NYI's former first rounders Okposo and Bailey had been compromised due to being rushed into the league. And that is in a secondary market. Do you want to pretend Seguin in Boston, on a cup champ team, is the same player in Toronto??? Multiply the impact of being rushed by about 50 when talking Toronto. One in every thousand prospects might have the maturity and mental agility to survive in this market. I have spoken to a noted sports psychologist about this, who confirms that the Toronto market is unique, and its demands are different than those of a smaller market. Its fact, not opinion.
2. Make no mistake. Your occasional attendance, and the one Leaf jersey you get for Christmas every year doesn't make you a valued MLSE customer. They know who they are playing to. The corporate dollar, and the season ticket holders are their valued customers. Not me, not you, unless you fit the season ticket holder description. They have a duty to make the games appealing, win or lose, and to have a name guy on the roster. When season ticket holders complain, and private boxes go unsold, MLSE responds.
3. Burke interviewed at length for this position. And the expectations were laid out in detail. Ownership demanded a better product NOW. Intentionally sucking for 5 years in order to reload through the draft was never an option for Burke. He was given a mandate to start competing (insert tired sarcasm-laden rhetorical response here) as soon as possible. It has admittedly taken longer than expected. It was never the plan to gut the entire roster, but it proved necessary based on the complacency of the players we had, who showed nothing to warrant confidence in them.
A tear down was ultimately necessary, but i had to be done in a way where there the expected compete level remained intact. You simply cannot justify intentionally icing a sub standard product, when you have tens of millions of dollars in corporate and season ticket money changing hands. MLSE owes it to that elite group of valued customer to host an entertaining evening every time they are in attendance. What you or I expect or think, means sod all to them.
So no, a five year tank rebuild doesn't work here. Never will. Not in the cards...
Of course I understand the dynamics of the situation. I've been following the Leafs since 93, and the Raptors since 95. MLSE and Peddie were notorious, and any diehard fan knows the ins and outs of the way MLSE operates. MLSE was owned by the OTPP, obviously not a traditional owner. They want a ROI to ensure the pension plan. They cared more about profits than wins. Thus, it's been a cycle of near-sited, short-term moves, content with a little playoff revenue, at the expense of long-term sustainability that would ultimately be more profitable for them anyway, but they were too blind/ignorant/short-term oriented to see it.
The notion that a 5-year rebuild wouldn't work in Toronto is ridiculous. If this team fails to make the playoffs (ie. next year), sooner or later the ownership group will realize that this team is just stuck on a treadmill of poorness. It's not even mediocrity, it's consistent bottom 25% of the league performance. Hopefully they'll realize that if they're willing to take two steps back to take three or four steps forward (ie. tear it down, gather core elite talent building blocks for a few years) then wins and playoff revenue will likely follow.
And who said anything about rushing prospects? If we had drafted Seguin, I would have sent him back to junior for another year. There would have been no point in putting him in a poisonous environment/losing culture, only to potentially stunt/ruin his development and also burn one of his ELC years. Of course you have to insulate them. That means having the right coaching staff in place, having the right veterans in the locker room, not rushing them to the big leagues, restricting media access - whatever it takes. Just because you're in the spotlight of Toronto doesn't mean it can't work. It just comes down to management and ownership.
This may be a career year for Kessel. He started off strong. He was consistent. Career high in goals and points. It is NOT hard to imagine he may NEVER be this good again. All for a team heading for last place in the East.
Get what you can for him and rebuild.
Pens better trade Malkin and get what they can while the going is good - he may never have this good a year again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1r0ky
Seguin again...? Why? I have yet to see a Kessel thread that does not mention Seguin.
It will never die. Leafs win the Cup with Kessel and fanbase goes: "About time. We'd have won it quicker and in repeat years if we had Seguin and those other picks."
Last edited by Toasterman: 03-21-2012 at 11:09 AM.
Kessel played for the same club at the same age, no?
In any case the Leafs would be in much better shape with Seguin from this day forward. I don't see where there is any debate. Kessel is far from a player that you have to have.
please. just b/c YOU think there is no debate, really doesn't mean anything. at THIS POINT in time, march 21st 2012, kessel should really be unquestionably the better player that can impact a team more than seguin. you put seguin on a line with bozak and lupul (hypotehtically speaking of course, ei. positions) and i believe the more valuable line would be with kessel. he would also make lupul a better player than seguin would IMO.
seguin is however much younger than kessel. but right NOW, it's not safe to say that he will ever be better than kessel. kessel still has growth as well (he's shown it in every season as a maple leaf). you give him some competent pieces to play with and he very well might become a perennial 40+ goal scorer, he has that kind of talent.
imo the jury is still out on the trade, and will be for the next 5 years minimum (to assess douggie hamilton as well).
please. just b/c YOU think there is no debate, really doesn't mean anything. at THIS POINT in time, march 21st 2012, kessel should really be unquestionably the better player that can impact a team more than seguin. you put seguin on a line with bozak and lupul (hypotehtically speaking of course, ei. positions) and i believe the more valuable line would be with kessel. he would also make lupul a better player than seguin would IMO.
seguin is however much younger than kessel. but right NOW, it's not safe to say that he will ever be better than kessel. kessel still has growth as well (he's shown it in every season as a maple leaf). you give him some competent pieces to play with and he very well might become a perennial 40+ goal scorer, he has that kind of talent.
imo the jury is still out on the trade, and will be for the next 5 years minimum (to assess douggie hamilton as well).
That is why I said from this day forward. Who really cares about this exact moment? Seguin is 20 and is one of the most difficult pieces to acquire. He would be a Leaf today if Burke showed more patience and everybody would be pretty excited going forward watching him grow as a Leaf.
Kessel has provided goals but after three years the team has not improved. In two seasons he is an unrestricted free agent. I don't get the debate. It is quite obvious looking at things right now what would be preferable moving ahead.
That is why I said from this day forward. Who really cares about this exact moment? Seguin is 20 and is one of the most difficult pieces to acquire. He would be a Leaf today if Burke showed more patience and everybody would be pretty excited going forward watching him grow as a Leaf.
Kessel has provided goals but after three years the team has not improved. In two seasons he is an unrestricted free agent. I don't get the debate. It is quite obvious looking at things right now what would be preferable moving ahead.
again, obvious to you lol. you're being silly though saying 'i don't get the debate'. clearly you do. there are obviously a large portion of us in this thread that feel with better pieces (ie. a competent SEMI-intelligent defense core, an actual number one goalie, a legit 3rd line, etc) kessel will lead this team (and no i don't mean by anything other than lighting the lamp) to playoff prosperity. the team has not improved by NO FAULT of kessel. he has actually improved every year. the team hasn't improved b/c, hello, we still have among the worst starting goalies in the nhl, and among the worst defensive defencemen. not to mention zero productivity from our 3rd line. of course the team hasn't improved and why would they without those things changed??
if kessel is in the top 5 in nhl scoring the next 2 years as well, and we're in the playoffs and doing well, why not give him 7 mil?? his offensive talent cannot just be replaced easily.
And Seguin on a Stanley Cup champion team with depth and great goaltending is not the same Sequin you get on a Toronto team with nothing to speak of. He gets rushed and possibly ruined. You all seem to ignore that part.
So are you saying that Burke and the Leafs would ruin him.....but you are not in favour of firing Burke....got it!
I don't know what worse; the effort being taken to trying to push critical thinking on 'diceman', or crying over the Kessel deal, which is beating a dead horse.
Well lets talk about critical thinking then shall we....
I feel that when looking at Leafs moves since Burke has arrived as the Leafs GM and president that he has lacked this critical thinking that you mistakenly believe that I lack.
I have pointed out Burke's mistakes and it is individuals such as your self you seem to have a disconnect with your personal opinion about Burke and the the information that is in front of our eyes.
You all point to the fact that the cupboards were empty when he got here as a reason why we are where we are at currently as an excuse. Yet when presented with reasonable discussions that are part of a debate you all use personal attacks when backed into a corner rather than using what you describe as critical thing, which by the ways, shows a lack of reasoning skills to enable a person to participate in an a intelligent debate.
If the cupboards were as empty as you all claim they are ( i agree with this claim) Why if you know that your team is horrible would you trade 3 future draft picks will help turn this around. That move lack Critical thinking!
This GM has poor asset management skills in my opinion. Look at Liles as an example, we have a lot of young D -man with in our system and he extends his contract. He should have used this asset and traded him for a asset that would be able to help us when we are a better team. Liles will be long gone by the time we are going to be a team that is going to competitive year after year.
I don't see how that would've been fine. People would still be complaining about it being year 4 of a 5 year plan. The only difference is we'd have a 20 year old scoring less than a point per game instead of a 24 year old scoring more than a point per game and Dougie Hamilton waiting in the wings. Like that's supposed to be a way better situation.
Everyone talks about Seguin, and no doubt he is a great player already (and is only 20).
Look on the flip side... (sorry if its ugly, I'm in a rush and just literally copied/pasted)
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GWG S S%
REGULAR SEASON 74 36 40 76 -8 20 9 0 6 263 13.7
LEAGUE RANK 3rd 3rd 24th 4th 731st 434th 18th 115th 15th 6th 102nd
Everyone says its easy to get a "1-dimensional player"... even if that's all he brings - that's a pretty impressive stat line. As everyone says, wait it out to see what the end looks like but I'm happy with Kessel and maybe not the trade, but Kessel is a keeper too.
If the cupboards were as empty as you all claim they are ( i agree with this claim) Why if you know that your team is horrible would you trade 3 future draft picks will help turn this around. That move lack Critical thinking!
Because you get a once in a lifetime chance to get a 21-year old superstar with some of the best goal-scoring abilities in the league, that has a higher chance of turning around the team than 3 unknown draft picks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934
This GM has poor asset management skills in my opinion. Look at Liles as an example, we have a lot of young D -man with in our system and he extends his contract. He should have used this asset and traded him for a asset that would be able to help us when we are a better team. Liles will be long gone by the time we are going to be a team that is going to competitive year after year.
We have a lot of young defensemen that are not ready to step into the NHL, and would benefit from a veteran in the lineup when they do make the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
The truth, as they say, is inconvenient.
Burke was wrong.
All the evidence is standings.
St. Louis is a terrible team, and everything they did was wrong because last year they were 20th overall in the league. They were actually on the downswing, since they were 15th overall the previous two years!
The evidence was in the standings.
Wait, where are they now, with no significant changes to their team?
Kessel:
09/10: third worst +/- among Leaf forwards
10/11: second worst +/- among Leaf forwards
11/12: fourth worst +/- among Leaf forwards
I'm sure this is a coincidence and the fact that Kessel is fifth among forwards in giveaways, has just 11 hits, and doesn't backcheck has no influence on +/-.
