Really can't see Burke trading Kessel. Burke is the last guy I see swallowing some pride and trading Kessel for an unknown quantity in a pick. It's the right move to make, but does anyone actually believe Burke will do something like that? I think it's a bit of a pipedream.
Perhaps, but I would put a lot of faith in Dave Morrison, he's just about the only person in the Org. that has done what he was supposed to do and more.
I'm not on the Kessel developing more angle as much as others, at 24 with 6 seasons behind him, I think this is what we are going to see in his game more or less, yes I think he can marginally improve. But it's not like there is a tonne more upside. If we wait a year to trade him the return on him will be less, due to him being up for a large raise as a FA.
Top Young players straight out of the draft are making impacts in the NHL a lot more now than before, Kessel came out of college so it took him a bit longer but he's been a pro for 6 seasons, hard to think he's going to be much better than this year.
you make it sound like kessel is underachieving. he is on the verge of putting up 40 goals and 40 assists. im not sure how to check but im pretty sure there are only a handful of players in the league today that have accomplished that. the fact that he is 24 when he is doing it is also impressive and playing with what most people consider a 3rd line center at best in bozak and a surprising left winger that most considered a salary dump before the season. i think it is reasonable to assume that if the leafs could ever get him an actual center and some support players he could really be an offensive weapon.
it blows my mind that people are actually considering trading kessel. he is pretty much the lone bright spot on this team with the exception of gardiner and possibly lupul.
i think the biggest problem is that people (the media/fans) keep blaming him for the trade that brought him over. its not his fault that he was traded for a 2nd overall ++.
at the end of the day, the leafs need to add pieces to kessel, not make lateral trades.
Unless the return in draft picks is similar (including draft position) to what it cost to get Phil Kessel here, it would make zero sense to trade Kessel for draft picks with 2 years remaining on his contract. But that doesn't mean Burke shouldn't consider trading Kessel if the return warrants discussion.
I understand wanting to trade Lupul while his stock is high except that I see no reason this season wasn't Lupul's break through year to a half decade of top 25 production. Still, just as with Kessel, you can't discount the possibility that you'd get blown away by an offer for Lupul you can't refuse.
you make it sound like kessel is underachieving. he is on the verge of putting up 40 goals and 40 assists. im not sure how to check but im pretty sure there are only a handful of players in the league today that have accomplished that. the fact that he is 24 when he is doing it is also impressive and playing with what most people consider a 3rd line center at best in bozak and a surprising left winger that most considered a salary dump before the season. i think it is reasonable to assume that if the leafs could ever get him an actual center and some support players he could really be an offensive weapon.
it blows my mind that people are actually considering trading kessel. he is pretty much the lone bright spot on this team with the exception of gardiner and possibly lupul.
i think the biggest problem is that people (the media/fans) keep blaming him for the trade that brought him over. its not his fault that he was traded for a 2nd overall ++.
at the end of the day, the leafs need to add pieces to kessel, not make lateral trades.
Never said or inferred he was underachieving, not sure where I said this. As for trading Kessel my viewpoints on this are well articulated, not going to keep repeating myself when people misread or misunderstand my reasons.
Unless the return in draft picks is similar (including draft position) to what it cost to get Phil Kessel here, it would make zero sense to trade Kessel for draft picks with 2 years remaining on his contract. But that doesn't mean Burke shouldn't consider trading Kessel if the return warrants discussion.
I understand wanting to trade Lupul while his stock is high except that I see no reason this season wasn't Lupul's break through year to a half decade of top 25 production. Still, just as with Kessel, you can't discount the possibility that you'd get blown away by an offer for Lupul you can't refuse.
Lupul was also on his way to a breakout season before he got steamrolled by one of his teammates a few years back. ...talent has always been there, major injuries is the only thing that has hindered his progress
The chance that Burke is as stupid as the people who blame Kessel for this season is pretty well zero.
No one blames Kessel. Most of us just agree that you don't rebuild around him. If we're not going to be competitive withing 2 years Kessel will walk for nothing. We are just suggesting he be traded while his value is high and rebuild properly.
No one blames Kessel. Most of us just agree that you don't rebuild around him. If we're not going to be competitive withing 2 years Kessel will walk for nothing. We are just suggesting he be traded while his value is high and rebuild properly.
We need to add to what we have in Kessel, not trade him, I think that should be very clear. He needs a #1 C to play with, not swap him for another winger like Nash or a #1 C. Whose going to play with that #1 C if Kessel is traded? We'll be looking for an elite scoring winger we already have in Kessel. Filling one hole while digging another doesn't work. People talk like Kessel is so easily replaceable: find me another 24yr old scoring winger with 4 consecutive 30 plus goal seasons under his belt. There is NO ONE in this organization whose adept at scoring as Kessel is and there's no guarantee that whoever comes in (whether it be that centre or another winger) could produce as consistently as Kessel. Consistency in scoring on the second line is one of the big reasons that killed the Leafs this year.
The chance that Burke is as stupid as the people who blame Kessel for this season is pretty well zero.
The chances of you understand and admitting that no one is blaming kessel for our season is less then zero as you are cut from the same cloth as Burke neither of you would admit you are wrong!
We need to add to what we have in Kessel, not trade him, I think that should be very clear. He needs a #1 C to play with, not swap him for another winger like Nash or a #1 C. Whose going to play with that #1 C if Kessel is traded? We'll be looking for an elite scoring winger we already have in Kessel. Filling one hole while digging another doesn't work. People talk like Kessel is so easily replaceable: find me another 24yr old scoring winger with 4 consecutive 30 plus goal seasons under his belt. There is NO ONE in this organization whose adept at scoring as Kessel is and there's no guarantee that whoever comes in (whether it be that centre or another winger) could produce as consistently as Kessel. Consistency in scoring on the second line is one of the big reasons that killed the Leafs this year.
Which young #1 center could you possibly pry away from a team without trading Kessel or drafting one??? There are 0 available this year at free agency. We could possibly grab a free agent in 2013-2014 but will Kessel stay either way?? It's too risky not to trade him, but that's my opinion.
The chances of you understand and admitting that no one is blaming kessel for our season is less then zero as you are cut from the same cloth as Burke neither of you would admit you are wrong!
Didn't Burke say he made mistakes in Vancouver by not getting a goalie?
Generally you admit mistakes after they're proven wrong not before it happens, that's how things work. I think he also said he didn't expect the Leafs to be a bottom 2 team when he made the Kessel deal. So your comments about him (and likely mooseOAK) are wrong.
Unless the return in draft picks is similar (including draft position) to what it cost to get Phil Kessel here, it would make zero sense to trade Kessel for draft picks with 2 years remaining on his contract. But that doesn't mean Burke shouldn't consider trading Kessel if the return warrants discussion.
I understand wanting to trade Lupul while his stock is high except that I see no reason this season wasn't Lupul's break through year to a half decade of top 25 production. Still, just as with Kessel, you can't discount the possibility that you'd get blown away by an offer for Lupul you can't refuse.
We will never recoup what we gave up for Kessel. But with good scouting, if the team can identify someone in the draft they think can be a 1C down the road, trading Kessel for the 3rd or 4th or 5th overall pick might look pretty good a couple years down the road. For example, a guy like Kopitar was drafted 11th overall. He's developed into a very good 1C. What if the Leafs saw someone they liked in the 5-10 range, and then traded Kessel for that pick and selected the player they had identified? The casual fan would be up in arms, but those are the types of moves that look really good 2-3 years down the road.
We will never recoup what we gave up for Kessel. But with good scouting, if the team can identify someone in the draft they think can be a 1C down the road, trading Kessel for the 3rd or 4th or 5th overall pick might look pretty good a couple years down the road. For example, a guy like Kopitar was drafted 11th overall. He's developed into a very good 1C. What if the Leafs saw someone they liked in the 5-10 range, and then traded Kessel for that pick and selected the player they had identified? The casual fan would be up in arms, but those are the types of moves that look really good 2-3 years down the road.
Kessel is 5 points away from Kopitar's career high in points, and Kopitar has never scored as many goals as Kessel has.
you want to gamble on someone that 'might' be able to do as well as the guy we already have who is already doing it, and actually improving still, and has not even entered his prime yet.
I like Brendan Gaunce in that range, but, i would never expect him to be as good as Kessel is now, nor in the future, and Gaunce may have 1C potential.
Kessel is 5 points away from Kopitar's career high in points, and Kopitar has never scored as many goals as Kessel has.
you want to gamble on someone that 'might' be able to do as well as the guy we already have who is already doing it, and actually improving still, and has not even entered his prime yet.
I like Brendan Gaunce in that range, but, i would never expect him to be as good as Kessel is now, nor in the future, and Gaunce may have 1C potential.
bonus points are awarded because kopitar is a center. you need to look at big picture. not just stats.
if kessel was to be traded, a player like kopitar is what i would be hoping is coming back
Generally you admit mistakes after they're proven wrong not before it happens, that's how things work. I think he also said he didn't expect the Leafs to be a bottom 2 team when he made the Kessel deal. So your comments about him (and likely mooseOAK) are wrong.
I posed a question as I never heard Burke admit that Dan Cloutier was not the goalie to take the Canuck's to the Cup.
Yes he did say he did not expect the Leafs to be a bottom two team but he also has never said the trade was a mistake, nor would I expect him to do so.....the point is he will never trade him....never!
No one blames Kessel. Most of us just agree that you don't rebuild around him. If we're not going to be competitive withing 2 years Kessel will walk for nothing. We are just suggesting he be traded while his value is high and rebuild properly.
great reply. I brought up trading Kessel while his stock is high several months ago and was mocked relentlessly and ruthlessly. now i see more and more people thinking the same way.
Yes he did say he did not expect the Leafs to be a bottom two team but he also has never said the trade was a mistake, nor would I expect him to do so.....the point is he will never trade him....never!
I don't think anyone expected Burke to trade Francios Beauchemin who was one of the first UFA's Burke signed and trading Kris Versteeg only months after he originally traded for him. So I say anything is possible.
great reply. I brought up trading Kessel while his stock is high several months ago and was mocked relentlessly and ruthlessly. now i see more and more people thinking the same way.
This is dumb. More people read Cox's article and just followed blindly. And what do you mean by his stock his high? You make it sound like he's a one year wonder and that his scoring is some kind of fluke. He has gotten better every year and is still only 24, and has yet to enter his prime. As a winger, he is outscoring many #1 C's in the league, but rather than get him a centre to play with so this team is respectable again, let's trade him and start over, and hope that whoever we get is better than him. Genius.
you make it sound like kessel is underachieving. he is on the verge of putting up 40 goals and 40 assists. im not sure how to check but im pretty sure there are only a handful of players in the league today that have accomplished that. the fact that he is 24 when he is doing it is also impressive and playing with what most people consider a 3rd line center at best in bozak and a surprising left winger that most considered a salary dump before the season. i think it is reasonable to assume that if the leafs could ever get him an actual center and some support players he could really be an offensive weapon.
it blows my mind that people are actually considering trading kessel. he is pretty much the lone bright spot on this team with the exception of gardiner and possibly lupul.
i think the biggest problem is that people (the media/fans) keep blaming him for the trade that brought him over. its not his fault that he was traded for a 2nd overall ++.
at the end of the day, the leafs need to add pieces to kessel, not make lateral trades.
Although there are many parts of Kessels game that i hate, i won't deny that there is plenty of O in em.
I agree that we don't have a #1c for him atm and i believe we could see even more O out of him if that is corrected. BUT one must also take into account that RW used a run and gun system, where RC runs the complete opposite, that could have a drag on PKs top end #s.
And very frankly i don't give a sht if he puts up 100 points if he is going to run a -15 with it, i would rather see a 75/80p season with a +15.
And for your words to describe Lups, those are a little to harsh, the potential was always there, he just needed to get healthy and in shape. But once again if this combo can't get itself playing + hockey , it's pretty much like spinning your wheels in the mud.
Which young #1 center could you possibly pry away from a team without trading Kessel or drafting one??? There are 0 available this year at free agency. We could possibly grab a free agent in 2013-2014 but will Kessel stay either way?? It's too risky not to trade him, but that's my opinion.
Although there are many parts of Kessels game that i hate, i won't deny that there is plenty of O in em.
I agree that we don't have a #1c for him atm and i believe we could see even more O out of him if that is corrected. BUT one must also take into account that RW used a run and gun system, where RC runs the complete opposite, that could have a drag on PKs top end #s.
And very frankly i don't give a sht if he puts up 100 points if he is going to run a -15 with it, i would rather see a 75/80p season with a +15.
And for your words to describe Lups, those are a little to harsh, the potential was always there, he just needed to get healthy and in shape. But once again if this combo can't get itself playing + hockey , it's pretty much like spinning your wheels in the mud.
His plus/minus stat is more indicative of this porous Leafs team than it is of Kessel; he was +23 as a less defensively minded 21 year old on a Bruins team, tallying only 60 pts in 70 games. You can't pick on Kessel's plus/minus alone without considering the Leafs' overall weak defensive play and poor goaltending.
