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Toronto Maple Leafs need to turn page on Phil Kessel

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03-15-2012, 09:41 AM
  #101
Sergei Berezin
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Seems like points is a major requirement for you in evaluating a player. If you are consistent, than Jason Spezza must be better than 98% of players in the NHL, better than Toews and Datysuk.

Everytime Kessel is discussed you or someone else will readily cite he is 5th in NHL points, you do realize points only tell part of the story when evaluating a player's value.
You play to win.

You win by scoring more goals than the other team.

Your most important players should be integral in goal scoring.

I'm sorry, but I can find intangibles on the 3rd and 4th lines; my first two lines better ****ing score goals. Clearly Mike Richards isn't getting it done in LA, because that's the lowest scoring team, and he's a top-6 centerman (apparently one of the best in the league), and you know what? The amazing Mike Richards has led the Kings to a spot in the West that isn't much better than Kessel's Maple Leafs.

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03-15-2012, 09:41 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds for Phil Kessel?

I would puke.

Richards has 35 points this year. I hope you all have fun with him on your fantasy teams as a top-10 player in the league.
it's the same case as thinking those guys would have the same success on this team that they do in Philly. While we do need a player like Simmonds, I would bet on him scoring 30 points on this team and being a 3rd line grinder. Brayden Schenn will be courted as bust as they point to Kadri. I'm starting to think philly's system creates some guys to have scoring inflation. Carter and Richards have struggled in their new environments.

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03-15-2012, 09:41 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by iArts View Post
Do you understand how big the gap is between 35 and 72 points?
Do you understand hockey? According to your logic, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Datsyuk or Toews. If so why do you keep pointing to the limited critaria of points?

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03-15-2012, 09:41 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Funny how you left, Weber, Mike Richards and Nash off the list and that was just off the top of my head. They are far better than over half the players on that list. Hypothetical trades are a waste of time here, we don't know what discussions have been held already. We see it all the time. Burke's deals have all come out of left field so you really don't know what has been discussed already. If you think there are no ongoing discussions between GM's, you are not being realistic.
Your comprehension skills are staggering. I'm reeling.

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03-15-2012, 09:44 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Do you understand hockey? According to your logic, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Datsyuk or Toews. If so why do you keep pointing to the limited critaria of points?
Both Datsyuk and Toews were top 10 in points up until they got injured.

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03-15-2012, 09:44 AM
  #106
Sergei Berezin
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Do you understand hockey? According to your logic, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Datsyuk or Toews. If so why do you keep pointing to the limited critaria of points?
Lol what... they both put up PPG numbers?



I think you would like Mike Brown on your #1 line because he plays with heart, determination, and he backchecks!

Who cares that he's scored 1 goal, it's all about the intangibles!

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03-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #107
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How many times has he been under pressure? It's probably pretty close to that many times that he's folded.


I suppose we can start with the last 16 games though....
Lol so you make a statement you cant back up. Classic.

Btw he has been ppg and played admirably until our playoff chances practically vanished. If anything, he folds when there is less pressure.

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03-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Beezle View Post
it's the same case as thinking those guys would have the same success on this team that they do in Philly. While we do need a player like Simmonds, I would bet on him scoring 30 points on this team and being a 3rd line grinder. Brayden Schenn will be courted as bust as they point to Kadri. I'm starting to think philly's system creates some guys to have scoring inflation. Carter and Richards have struggled in their new environments.
Oh for sure... I mean, I'd love both players on the Leafs, but not at the price of Kessel.

Also agree on Schenn being a bust... Simmonds wouldn't really have the right players to build himself around here. There arent' any other big PWFs on the team that he could model himself after like he does in Philly.

But that's for another time.

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03-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
What? He always back checks... that's the biggest Phil Kessel myth out there, and I thought at least Leaf fans realized this.
How often does Kessel actually pick up a guy on the back-check? Almost never, and it's not like he can't catch most people in the league. He chooses not to back-check hard.

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What pressure? When has he crumbled? If you bring up the recent Philly game, then you're on another level.
Every time the Leafs get into an important stretch of games, they **** the bed, and Kessel is a big part of that.

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Adversity? How about cancer? Not enough adversity for you?
Being picked last in the ASG? He picked his **** up after that and has been one of the best players in the NHL since.
Kessel plays well when there's no pressure. That's why he was great after we were basically out of the play-off race last year, and that's why he was great untill the stretch drive this year.

As soon as things start to go wrong, he can't deal with it, and he goes into extended slumps.

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03-15-2012, 09:47 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Lol what... they both put up PPG numbers?



I think you would like Mike Brown on your #1 line because he plays with heart, determination, and he backchecks!

Who cares that he's scored 1 goal, it's all about the intangibles!
its as some people can excuse when a player isn't' scoring as long as they bring other things to the table, but it can't go the other way when a guys scoring but brings nothing else to the table? I've seen Kessel bashing after he went 2 games without a point when he's pretty much been consistent all season. You need balance, you need a guy that can play both sides but also a guy that can open a game up even at the expense of some defence. I would bet a guy like Patrick Kane would get eaten alive here here.

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03-15-2012, 09:48 AM
  #111
Sergei Berezin
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
How many times has he been under pressure? It's probably pretty close to that many times that he's folded.


I suppose we can start with the last 16 games though....
Yup... it was all Kessel.

The rest of the team played their hearts out despite the play of Phil Kessel. That one win in Montreal was a terrific feat against the horrible Phil Kessel.

Give me a break.

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03-15-2012, 09:48 AM
  #112
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The fact that some of you guys are even CONSIDERING trading our best forward who is:
-Top 5 in scoring and goals
- Under the age of 25
- Extremely consistent through the year

Because what? You THINK the INTERIM coach might not like him?

Only the FanHorde.

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03-15-2012, 09:49 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Lol so you make a statement you cant back up. Classic.
I just backed it up with an example that shoud be very fresh in your mind.

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Btw he has been ppg and played admirably until our playoff chances practically vanished. If anything, he folds when there is less pressure.
Our play-off chances weren't dead until recently. Over the last 16 games, we've needed wins more than ever. Kessel isn't the only one who has sucked, but he sure has saved his worst play of the season for the most important time. He did the same thing last year. It's not a coincidence.

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03-15-2012, 09:50 AM
  #114
John-Eric Iannicello
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I'd be floored if Kessel was traded under Burke.

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03-15-2012, 09:51 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Do you understand hockey? According to your logic, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Datsyuk or Toews. If so why do you keep pointing to the limited critaria of points?
Points are a big part of hockey. You think Patrick Kane is good defensively? Look at his terrible stats this year for a player being paid solely for offense.

Datsyuk and Toews were both top 10 in points before injuries. I wouldn't trade Kessel straight up for Datsyuk, not because I have trouble seeing who the better player is...but because of the age difference...Datsyuk would be like a gem playing with the rest of the scrubs just like Kessel is right now.

It's SO ****ING easy to blame Kessel, I feel bad for the guy. Burke trades away a fortune for him, and Kessel is the guy that gets blamed. UN-****ing-believable.

He is what he is...an elite goal scoring sniper. We knew that since the day Burke got him.

I don't like the trade right now or when it was made, but that's not because of Kessel, it's because of Burke's inability to assess the talent on his team before throwing lottery picks to a DIVISION rival we can't seem to beat.

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03-15-2012, 09:51 AM
  #116
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Why are you guys arguing over points now? Whtever. Leafs suck. This team needs to get blown up cause this "core" wont be winning anything anytime soon. Trade kessel, phaneuf, macarthur, kulemin, bozak, lombardi, connolly, komisarek, schenn, franson, dupuis, lupul for multiple picks/ prospects. Start fresh. I dont mean starting fresh, burke, by bringing in overrated, overpaid 3rd liners/ ahl platyers that are spread out through the whole roster. Get real young talent. Sell off this club.

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03-15-2012, 09:51 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
I'd be floored if Kessel was traded under Burke.
Agreed. Burke has staked much of his tenure here on that deal.

Although he might be forced to move him when he is on the verge of UFA if he won't sign an extension.

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #118
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First off, Kessel is a really skilled hockey player, the kind just about any team wants on their top line. From a logical standpoint, there's no reason to trade him.

The real problem, which Cox touches on, is that things are going to get very ugly soon. Kessel will unfortunately always be seen by a large segment of Leafs fans as an albatross, Burke's folly, the guy who cost them Seguin or Hall, so he's always going to be under tremendous pressure from certain sectors, and this clevage is going to be stroked by the media to generate controversy (fact of life in a big hockey market, there are lots of paid media who's job it is to stir the pot). Kessel is a shy guy who does not handle that spotlight well. Further things will get even worse IF it is true that Kessel and Carlyle really don't get along.

So unfortunately there is pretty high potential for Kessel's stay in Toronto to turn toxic. Which leads to this sort of speculation. Kessel could blow his top and demand a trade in the next year or two, or maybe he'll just bide his time until summer '14, refuse extensions, and hit the UFA market?

So what to do? Hope Kessel learns to deal with it and that him & Carlyle actually get along? And he signs an extension? Or do you insure yourself against the above mentioned disaster scenario and trade him now while his value is high? How about if something like Montreal's top 5 pick for Kessel becomes an option?

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Quote, please.
http://bigbadblog.weei.com/sports/bo...lay-in-boston/

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Bruins GM Peter Chiarelli met with the media on Saturday morning to discuss dealing leading-scorer Phil Kessel to the Toronto Maple Leafs for three high draft picks over the next years, and stated pointedly on several occasions that the 21-year-old winger “no longer wanted to play in Boston”.

Kessel and agent Wade Arnott had, according to Chiarelli, informed him of a couple of reasons why he no longer wanted to a Bruin, and privately gave the GM a couple of reasons why he needed a change of NHL address. That spurred the B’s to trade away Kessel for draft picks in excess of the draft pick compensation for a potential offer sheet, and the Maple Leafs emerged as the only team with the draft pick assets and available cash to swing a trade-and-sign for Boston’s restricted free agent.
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One of those reasons behind Kessel’s desire to leave is believed to be B’s coach Claude Julien’s “tough love” relationship with him over their two years together. Some believe that Kessel never forgave the coach for benching him during his first playoff series against the Montreal Canadiens, and preaching the importance of a two-way game over simply being a glorified floater on the ice. Kessel scored 36 goals and was a +23 during his breakout season with the Black and Gold last winter, and much of that on-ice success can be traced back to Julien’s “no soft play allowed” coaching style.
Quote:
Chiarelli added that he could have matched a potential offer sheet from Toronto and then stored Phil Kessel on LTIR (Long Term Injured Reserve) for the entirety of the regular season if the B’s front office felt it was necessary. That would have been a largely punitive move toward the player, and would have forced the B’s to clear off enough space for his gigantic raise in salary.
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“At the end of the day, we want players that want to be here,” said Chiarelli, who also said the perceived threat of the offer sheet played prominently into the eventual trade. “I know this player is a good player. Obviously he is. He can skate and he can shoot the puck. But we want players that want to be here, and we want to grow the team with those type of players. This isn’t about — and I know the history here — but this isn’t about frugality. There was some significant offers made, and there was little to no attempt to negotiate from the other side.

“Phil’s agent gave me a couple of reasons,” added Chiarelli when asked if he knew why Kessel wanted out of Boston. “I was surprised. I don’t know if really there were other reasons. He has that right as a restricted free agent and he can choose (where he signs). It’s all part of this new CBA whether it’s restricted free agency or unrestricted free agency, it comes earlier and arbitration comes earlier so (a player’s) mobility and choice of location comes earlier.”

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #120
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Toronto Star needs to turn the page on Damien Cox. My goodness, these duds just live forever. Term limits for journalists?

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #121
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This is a stupid suggestion.

Let him play his game. Surround him with a decent d-forward like Lupul and a REAL #1C and you let Kessel be Kessel and we'll be fine.

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
The fact that some of you guys are even CONSIDERING trading our best forward who is:
-Top 5 in scoring and goals
- Under the age of 25
- Extremely consistent through the year

Because what? You THINK the INTERIM coach might not like him?

Only the FanHorde.
They're worried he doesn't sign here in 2.5 years I'm worried too, but no way in hell we trade him now.

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03-15-2012, 09:53 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
How often does Kessel actually pick up a guy on the back-check? Almost never, and it's not like he can't catch most people in the league. He chooses not to back-check hard.



Every time the Leafs get into an important stretch of games, they **** the bed, and Kessel is a big part of that.



Kessel plays well when there's no pressure. That's why he was great after we were basically out of the play-off race last year, and that's why he was great untill the stretch drive this year.

As soon as things start to go wrong, he can't deal with it, and he goes into extended slumps.
He stepped up his game last year when they were desperately trying to catch up to the last playoff spot until they slumped a bit to the last few games. Even if you think we were out of it, he still played hard.

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03-15-2012, 09:53 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
I'd be floored if Kessel was traded under Burke.
I don't think he trades him, but Burke has got to be on some sort of leash starting next year.

He openly admits that the Leafs spend the most on management, player development, player scouting, equipment management etc etc.

The results remain the same.

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03-15-2012, 09:54 AM
  #125
John-Eric Iannicello
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Agreed. Burke has staked much of his tenure here on that deal.

Although he might be forced to move him when he is on the verge of UFA if he won't sign an extension.
The only way I can see him dealt if it's for a #1 center, in the same age bracket.

Not sure which teams have those at their disposal, but that`s the only way I can see it happening.

Either way, any move involving Kessel regardless of the return is going to be chewed up huge in this city.

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