HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Edmonton / Ottawa Proposal

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-16-2004, 10:22 PM
  #26
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
 
Bring Back Bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Delicieux!
Country: Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 7,833
vCash: 968
This may look like a good deal to an impartial party, but for reasons known only to the Oilers faithful, this deal would never happen imo.

Bring Back Bucky is offline  
Old
11-16-2004, 10:42 PM
  #27
Vyse64
N64
 
Vyse64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Calgary AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,790
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Vyse64
bad deal for the oilers

dawgbone is 100% right, listen to him

and nothing good comes out from the Edmonton/Ottawa proposals

in the end its Smyth => Havlet based on Ottawa's needs or wants

Vyse64 is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 02:29 AM
  #28
Evman*
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Victoria BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 417
vCash: 500
If the Sens had had Ryan Smyth the last five years, they'd have at least won one cup, probably more.

While not a superstar by any means, he is the kind of player who makes a great team a championship team.

Evman* is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 12:24 PM
  #29
EJsens1
Registered User
 
EJsens1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evman
If the Sens had had Ryan Smyth the last five years, they'd have at least won one cup, probably more.

While not a superstar by any means, he is the kind of player who makes a great team a championship team.
As a Sens fan, I'd love to have Ryan Smyth in our line-up. But what you are saying is so ridiculous. This isn't basketball where one player can win it all for you. Sure, some players can lead the way like an Iginla last year, but Ryan Smyth would not have led the Sens to the Cup on his shoulders. There are too many factors involved in getting a Cup, not to mention the assets Ottawa would have to likely give up in order to get him. Maybe they would have won a Cup, but nobody can claim that as some sort of 'fact'.

EJsens1 is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 12:31 PM
  #30
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
As a Sens fan, I'd love to have Ryan Smyth in our line-up. But what you are saying is so ridiculous. This isn't basketball where one player can win it all for you. Sure, some players can lead the way like an Iginla last year, but Ryan Smyth would not have led the Sens to the Cup on his shoulders. There are too many factors involved in getting a Cup, not to mention the assets Ottawa would have to likely give up in order to get him. Maybe they would have won a Cup, but nobody can claim that as some sort of 'fact'.

That wasn't the point he was making. He was saying that Ottawa has been so close to a cup for the past few years that Smyth would have put them over the top as he is exactly the kind of player they need.

s7ark is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 01:29 PM
  #31
Drake1588
UNATCO
 
Drake1588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 27,912
vCash: 500
They've needed better clutch goaltending as much as they've needed to upgrade top-six grit. The point remains that it's an oversimplification to point to skilled grit as a panacea, even if skilled grit is certainly one of the missing ingredients. A quibble perhaps, but a valid one.

Drake1588 is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 02:15 PM
  #32
LadyByngJeanRatelle
Registered User
 
LadyByngJeanRatelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
As a Sens fan, I'd love to have Ryan Smyth in our line-up. But what you are saying is so ridiculous. This isn't basketball where one player can win it all for you. Sure, some players can lead the way like an Iginla last year, but Ryan Smyth would not have led the Sens to the Cup on his shoulders. There are too many factors involved in getting a Cup, not to mention the assets Ottawa would have to likely give up in order to get him. Maybe they would have won a Cup, but nobody can claim that as some sort of 'fact'.

For the last two playoff losses to Toronto, Smyth would have given them exactly what they needed. Someone who would pay the price to score playoff goals, not float around the perimeter, like so many Sens players did against Toronto.

LadyByngJeanRatelle is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 03:25 PM
  #33
rebedom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 426
vCash: 500
It seems that the Edmonton HF Board has weaknesses that this trade may have addressed for both teams

Edmonton Strengths
1 Character, Grit & Leadership - why that's what Ottawa needs - Smith + Smyth
2 Balance At Forward - a high scoring LW like Smyth
3 Defensive Defenseman - the other Smith
4 Talent & Size at Center

Edmonton Weaknesses
1. Superstar Scoring Talent - Havlat / lesser degree White
2. Goaltending Depth for AHL - would you like Billy Thompson?
3. Stud Powerplay QB - Pothier is no stud but he is a PP QB & he's NHL ready now

Ottawa Strengths
1 Late Round Gems
2 Diversity & Quality
3 Seasoned Prospects
4 Depth

Ottawa Weaknesses
1. Future PP Quarterback? - Redden now Meszaros in future
2. Lack of Power Forwards - Smyth now, Eaves and Bochenski
3. Top Level Snipers???-Havlat, Alfie, Hossa, Spezza, Mirnov, Kaigorodov, Bochenski
4. Skilled Wingers ??? - see 3 - they do need more grit and toughness up front

rebedom is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 03:56 PM
  #34
EJsens1
Registered User
 
EJsens1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
For the last two playoff losses to Toronto, Smyth would have given them exactly what they needed. Someone who would pay the price to score playoff goals, not float around the perimeter, like so many Sens players did against Toronto.

Yet, Ottawa has only played the Leafs in the 1st round 3 times and the 2nd round once. The last 2 being the 2nd and 1st respectively. Even if they had won, that is hardly the guarenteed root to the Finals. If Smyth's value would almost assure Ottawa a Cup based on what some of you guys are insinuating, his value would be worth more then just Havlat in some sort of package. The reality is he isn't. Would he help??? Absolutely. Would he push us over the top??? No way can anyone say that, which is the point.

EJsens1 is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:01 PM
  #35
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
 
Bring Back Bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Delicieux!
Country: Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 7,833
vCash: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebedom
It seems that the Edmonton HF Board has weaknesses that this trade may have addressed for both teams

Edmonton Strengths
1 Character, Grit & Leadership - why that's what Ottawa needs - Smith + Smyth
2 Balance At Forward - a high scoring LW like Smyth
3 Defensive Defenseman - the other Smith
4 Talent & Size at Center

Edmonton Weaknesses
1. Superstar Scoring Talent - Havlat / lesser degree White
2. Goaltending Depth for AHL - would you like Billy Thompson?
3. Stud Powerplay QB - Pothier is no stud but he is a PP QB & he's NHL ready now

Ottawa Strengths
1 Late Round Gems
2 Diversity & Quality
3 Seasoned Prospects
4 Depth

Ottawa Weaknesses
1. Future PP Quarterback? - Redden now Meszaros in future
2. Lack of Power Forwards - Smyth now, Eaves and Bochenski
3. Top Level Snipers???-Havlat, Alfie, Hossa, Spezza, Mirnov, Kaigorodov, Bochenski
4. Skilled Wingers ??? - see 3 - they do need more grit and toughness up front

Let me assure you, as an Oilers fan, that "talent and size at centre" in no way is a strength for the current Oilers. 1985, yes, but today it is the team's most glaring weakness. Edmonton has Brian pothier already, but we call him M.A. Bergeron...

Bring Back Bucky is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:05 PM
  #36
Boondock Saint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebedom
Edmonton Weaknesses
2. Goaltending Depth for AHL - would you like Billy Thompson?
Good analysis, until this point.

We have Tyler Moss, who is having a great start to the year and is a very competent AHL veteran.

8 - 2 - 1 2SO 1.87GAA .931 SV%

We then have Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers who is making his pro debut, and has had a couple very good starts although he has some fairly unspectacular numbers. Made HF's Top 50 prospect list.

We also have Mike Morrison in the ECHL who played on the RoadRunners last year and got bumped by JDD this year. Last year with the 'Runners he posted these numbers:

12 - 8 - 2 3SO 2.52GAA .913SV%

So, our AHL goaltending depth is very strong right now, and we would have no place to even put another goalie, as we split our ECHL affiliate with Chicago and each provide them with one goalie.

Boondock Saint is online now  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:06 PM
  #37
Boondock Saint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Let me assure you, as an Oilers fan, that "talent and size at centre" in no way is a strength for the current Oilers. 1985, yes, but today it is the team's most glaring weakness. Edmonton has Brian pothier already, but we call him M.A. Bergeron...
Yep, pretty hard to call York, Horcoff, Stoll, Bishai and Reasoner a talented and large group of centers....

Boondock Saint is online now  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:13 PM
  #38
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock Saint
Yep, pretty hard to call York, Horcoff, Stoll, Bishai and Reasoner a talented and large group of centers....
He may have been commenting on our center prospects, Schremp, Pouliot and Niinimaki.

s7ark is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:49 PM
  #39
sunb
Registered User
 
sunb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Yale University
Country: China
Posts: 3,232
vCash: 500
A trade between both teams doesn't make sense.

Both teams desperately need a #1 center. I don't think trading oranges for oranges would either team at this point.

sunb is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 04:56 PM
  #40
Chayos
Registered User
 
Chayos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon
Posts: 2,707
vCash: 500
This deal is just another attempt to make teh deal that has been bandied on this board for 3 years.

Havlat for Smyth

The ott fans will say no way because Hvalat is way more talented and the oiler fans will say no way because smyth has so many intangibles and grit. Well wake up people the reason this deal makes sense is because both teams are deal froma position of strength. The oil's left side has more players than ice time and the oil have Torres ready to step into smyths icetime. The sens have Hossa and alfredsson ont heir right side. IMO in the straight up deal both side get exactly what they need.

One thing i want to point out to smyth nay sayers. If you think Lecavalier would have gotten the MVp at the world cup without smyth there you are mistaken. if you watch closely on most of the plays it was always Smyth diggin that puck out of the corners and giving it to Vinny and danny to do their magic. Smyth did score at a 50 goal cllip playing on that line i might add, sure it was only 6 games but the truth is in the numbers.

In my opinion the sens will continually try to band-aid the problems and never winanything in the end anyways because they are worried about trading away a talented player like hvalat.

If you ask me to rewrite teh deal abovve i would do this instead.

Smyth, Smith and Laraque

for

Havalt and Mezaros.

the oil give up now for the superstar offensive talent and stud on the back end int he future.

Chayos is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 05:04 PM
  #41
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,681
vCash: 500
Wow, I would do that trade and I am as big a Smyth fan as possible.

Edmonton gives Ottawa all the grit they need and Edmonton gets the skill they need back plus a potential top 2 pairing d-man

seems like a fair trade. I prefer it to the White/Pothier deal since those players are of little interest to Edmonton fans. Potier = MA Bergeron and White = slightly better Horcoff. so those players aren't needed

Ottawa fans, your thoughts?

s7ark is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 05:50 PM
  #42
trentmccleary
Registered User
 
trentmccleary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alfie-Ville
Posts: 18,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
The ott fans will say no way because Havlat is way more talented

You also forgot 5 years younger and paid $3M less/year. Add that Smyth will probably only score at 3/4 the pace of Havlat in the foreseeable future and that is quite the $#!*kicking in a one-for-one deal. All that for physical play on a scoring line and leadership.
Or tangible (5 yrs, $3M, +20 pts) for intangible (physical play, leadership).

Will it help? ... enough for a Cup?
Could it be achieved at a lower price with a Holmstrom/Fedotenko?
Is Smyth worth Havlat?... Hell, is Havlat worth Smyth?... How can you measure "intangibles"?

As for Smith & Laraque.
I'm also of the opinion that a 4th line enforcer will never be a difference-maker.
While a few Sens fans will complain... defense is still a strength here.
I certainly wouldn't give up Meszaros for low-impact, minor upgrades.

trentmccleary is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 06:01 PM
  #43
Wondercarrot
Classless
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,311
vCash: 500
That is interesting.....

Smyth-Smoke-Alfie
Shaefer-Spezza-Hossa
Vermette-Fisher-Neil
Laraque-White-Varada

Redden-Smith
Phillips-Chara
Volchenkov-Devries

Hasek


A lot of scoring throughout, loads of toughness, great mix of youth & exp, skill players with grit, grit players with skill.
I like the looks of this line-up a lot.
Look at that D. That's got to be one of the most fearsome defences the NHL has seen in quite some time, to go along with a nasty mix of talent and toughness up front.
I personally think the Sens are a pretty tough crew, they don't get pushed around but that's not really the point, i'd like to see them do the pushing, the challenging -and this line-up would be one to fear in every respect.
It would add some real gravitas to the Sens swagger.

I think i'd make that deal and i think it would be a good deal for the Oilers as well.
The problem is that i'd probably be equally happy if they didn't make that deal.....

soooo there you go.

Wondercarrot is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 06:11 PM
  #44
trentmccleary
Registered User
 
trentmccleary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alfie-Ville
Posts: 18,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
I think i'd make that deal and i think it would be a good deal for the Oilers as well.
The problem is that i'd probably be equally happy if they didn't make that deal.....

soooo there you go.
It's alway a scary proposition.
We trade youth for experience and might/ might not win a Cup now. Then lose key pieces to UFA/cost cutting and have no chance for years afterwards.

Or go with this team + upcoming prospects and challenge every year for a decade. A team that might never be good enough.

Neither is a guarentee of a Cup win and both plans have shortcomings.

trentmccleary is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 06:25 PM
  #45
misfit
Moderator
 
misfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: just north of...everything
Posts: 15,734
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Let me assure you, as an Oilers fan, that "talent and size at centre" in no way is a strength for the current Oilers. 1985, yes, but today it is the team's most glaring weakness. Edmonton has Brian pothier already, but we call him M.A. Bergeron...

All of the strengths and weaknesses listed were referring to the prospects, not the NHL players. As far as their prospects go, size and skill at center are an organizational strength with Pouliot, Niinimaki, and Schremp in the system. Obviously, it's a weakness in terms of what the team's short term needs are. That is why the Sutherby trade posted in the Washington/Edmonton thread wouldn't interest the Oilers (outside of the fact that Lowe really likes Sutherby as a prospect). What they need is a #1 center now who can fill that spot until one of the previously mentioned centers is ready to step in. They have their future center concerns dealt with, they just need to deal with their current ones.

Of course, I think those are all a little outdated since Deslaurier's move to the AHL and the play of Moss and Morrison make the need for goaltending depth at the AHL level not a need at all, rather something of a strength. The need for superstar scoring talent is still a big concern, but not quite as bad anymore with Schremp and Hemsky (who I would still consider to be very much a prospect) in the mix. Bergeron is slowly showing that he can be the Oilers' future pp quarterback, and drafting Tesliuk helped add another potential pp anchor, but I'd still consider it something of a weakness in the organization.

Ottawa's need for a future PP quarterback isn't as dire now that they've added Meszaros. It's true that they don't have a whole lot of promising power forward prospects in their system, but I don't see that as much of a problem because they are going to have Hossa for a very long time. Of course, their team does lack gritty forwards, and adding Smyth would be just what the doctor ordered even if it meant giving up Havlat. While they do have a lot of top level snipers in the NHL, their prospect depth in this area isn't incredibly impressive. Not to say they don't have any skilled players, but they sure don't have another Hossa in the system.

I don't even remember what the original proposal was, but Ottawa would be better off making the Smyth/Havlat deal than Edmonton would unless they've decided to give up on Hemsky all together. Ignoring the intangibles for a moment, Smyth has put up very good numbers when placed with talented linemates (his career highs for points in a season are better than Havlats to date), and I have no doubt he could be a 70 point player again on a line with Spezza and Alfredsson which isn't a whole lot less than Havlat would on the same line, but now add in the other aspects of his game that Havlat just doesn't have (leadership, defencive play, grit, net presence, etc.), and Ottawa runs away with it.

misfit is online now  
Old
11-18-2004, 06:42 PM
  #46
Ryno
BEHOLD!!
 
Ryno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: G.P
Country: Canada
Posts: 529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
You also forgot 5 years younger and paid $3M less/year. Add that Smyth will probably only score at 3/4 the pace of Havlat in the foreseeable future and that is quite the $#!*kicking in a one-for-one deal. All that for physical play on a scoring line and leadership.
Or tangible (5 yrs, $3M, +20 pts) for intangible (physical play, leadership).

Will it help? ... enough for a Cup?
Could it be achieved at a lower price with a Holmstrom/Fedotenko?
Is Smyth worth Havlat?... Hell, is Havlat worth Smyth?... How can you measure "intangibles"?

As for Smith & Laraque.
I'm also of the opinion that a 4th line enforcer will never be a difference-maker.
While a few Sens fans will complain... defense is still a strength here.
I certainly wouldn't give up Meszaros for low-impact, minor upgrades.
So Havlat only makes $500k now? You might want to check your facts again, as Smyth is signed for $3.55 mil this year, courtesy NHLPA website.

You'll also notice that over the last two years, Smyth and Havlat have put up similar numbers - 120pts in 148 games for Smyth, 127 pts in 135 games for Havlat...certainly not this "20 pts a season" you're parading.

And Jason Smith is a "low-impact, minor upgrade" now, is he? Wow.


Ryno is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 06:47 PM
  #47
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
 
Bring Back Bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Delicieux!
Country: Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 7,833
vCash: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
He may have been commenting on our center prospects, Schremp, Pouliot and Niinimaki.

I assumed that the material quoted was from the prospects page, but felt it necessary to take stock of the fact that "Large Skilled Centres" is a POSSIBILITY for the future, but still a weakness in the present. I have big hopes for the three above, but they are not yet a reality, just possibilities..

Bring Back Bucky is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 07:00 PM
  #48
trentmccleary
Registered User
 
trentmccleary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alfie-Ville
Posts: 18,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryno
So Havlat only makes $500k now? You might want to check your facts again, as Smyth is signed for $3.55 mil this year, courtesy NHLPA website.
Hmm, I thought Smyth signed for $5M at some point.
A difference of $1.2M then.

Quote:
You'll also notice that over the last two years, Smyth and Havlat have put up similar numbers - 120pts in 148 games for Smyth, 127 pts in 135 games for Havlat...certainly not this "20 pts a season" you're parading.
- Oh, come on. You're not seriously doing this between a player who is 23 and a player who is 28? One is an improving player and one has hit a plateau.

Over the last 5 years Smyth has averaged: 65 pts/ 82 games

Havlat's pro-rated production over his 4 year career is: 47, 57, 72, 82

You think it's a stretch to assume that he'll average 85 points a year?

Quote:
And Jason Smith is a "low-impact, minor upgrade" now, is he? Wow.

- On Ottawa, yup. He's behind Chara, Redden and maybe Phillips. So for a slight upgrade on Greg DeVries... we give up a top prospect?

trentmccleary is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 07:06 PM
  #49
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
 
Bring Back Bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Delicieux!
Country: Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 7,833
vCash: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Hmm, I thought Smyth signed for $5M at some point.
A difference of $1.2M then.



- Oh, come on. You're not seriously doing this between a player who is 23 and a player who is 28? One is an improving player and one has hit a plateau.

Over the last 5 years Smyth has averaged: 65 pts/ 82 games

Havlat's pro-rated production over his 4 year career is: 47, 57, 72, 82

You think it's a stretch to assume that he'll average 85 points a year?



- On Ottawa, yup. He's behind Chara, Redden and maybe Phillips. So for a slight upgrade on Greg DeVries... we give up a top prospect?
If you think Jason Smith is a "slight upgrade" over Greg DeVries, I must question, have you ever seen him play????

Bring Back Bucky is offline  
Old
11-18-2004, 07:18 PM
  #50
Ryno
BEHOLD!!
 
Ryno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: G.P
Country: Canada
Posts: 529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Hmm, I thought Smyth signed for $5M at some point.
A difference of $1.2M then.



- Oh, come on. You're not seriously doing this between a player who is 23 and a player who is 28? One is an improving player and one has hit a plateau.

Over the last 5 years Smyth has averaged: 65 pts/ 82 games

Havlat's pro-rated production over his 4 year career is: 47, 57, 72, 82

You think it's a stretch to assume that he'll average 85 points a year?



- On Ottawa, yup. He's behind Chara, Redden and maybe Phillips. So for a slight upgrade on Greg DeVries... we give up a top prospect?
A few things:

1) You stated that Smyth would put up 20 points a season less than Havlat. I just showed that that is not the case, based on the numbers, the last two seasons. I made no statment at all about age, I'm talking strictly numbers here. Also, you and I both know that Smyth is a multi-faceted player who's game encomapsses more than just putting up points...well, at least I know that.

2) You ascertain that Havlat will put up 85 points, when his previous career high is 68. Don't you think you're jumping the gun here? Let's see if he's healthy enough to play a full 82 game season before we make him an Art Ross trophy candidate.

3) Perhaps Smith and Laraque aren't worth Meszaros, but to think that Jason Smith is a low impact palyer, regardless of where he is playing, shows a lack of understanding and/or ignorance. Enough said.

Ryno is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.